Forums » The Dwarves

Make Dwarves 'bigger' please.

    • 500 posts
    January 7, 2017 9:27 AM PST

    Hello all,

     

    I took a break and now I am back. (Medical issue and I got hit by a car, but I’m back now!) I wanted to give some feedback to the team on dwarves and see if the community can also add to it if they feel the same.

     

    I will start by saying complaints are gifts. If received well they stimulate thought and promote growth.

     

    Dwarves, in my opinion, need to be bigger. Not necessarily taller. Some writers, myself included, have used descriptions such as “as wide as they are tall” or “square shaped”. This is to help distinguish them as small but packed full of muscle.

    One Gaming company I will bring up named ‘Cryptic Studios’, makers of Neverwinter, have made dwarf character models which succeed in the above descriptions.

     

     

    Now compare to Visionary Realms developers alpha representation of 'dwarves'

     

     

     

    I don’t want to sound too negative, but bear with me.

    The Ogres are stoic and physically impressive. They are made unique by their physical form being so big. They are the biggest and strongest around. The Archai are made unique by their split skin and the design of the glow. The Gnomes … I really shouldn’t need to say they are unique, they are the peak of uniqueness. When we get to dwarves … you get little bearded children with dark skin. This is not ok.

    Physically they look not only shorter than humans, but dwarves natural physic and masculinity does not show clearly and help them stand out among other races. I am not looking for shirtless pix. I am looking at width: back width, arm width, shoulder SHAPE and yes even height comparisons to make my deductions. (Keep in mind this is all opinion)

     

    My request is 'a second pass' to be taken on the dwarf race to make them a little ‘bigger’, a little ‘prouder’. When you look at them do you want to see a small bearded child? Or do you want to see a miniature Ogre?  

    Go with “mini-giant” please.

     

    -Todd


    This post was edited by tehtawd at January 7, 2017 11:35 AM PST
    • 1883 posts
    January 7, 2017 8:59 PM PST

    I would like them to be thicker, but maybe they already are. We have only seen me dwarf model so far. Maybe the player chose a skinnier version. Also, they are not complete and still have more passes to go at the models.

    You may get your wish.

    • 408 posts
    January 8, 2017 12:51 AM PST

    I am also hopeful that the hair appearance improves a lot as we get closer to release.

    So many games allow options for beards / hair but it comes out looking wrong on the character.

    I really want dwarven beards to be epic!

    • 1883 posts
    January 8, 2017 7:17 AM PST

    Improvements? We have seen one Dwarf. Before we start asking for improvements, let's see what is already available.

    • 4416 posts
    January 9, 2017 6:30 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    I would like them to be thicker, but maybe they already are. We have only seen me dwarf model so far. Maybe the player chose a skinnier version. Also, they are not complete and still have more passes to go at the models.

    You may get your wish.

    This.

    While I (mostly) agree about the stoutness of dwarves, I do not feel that strongly about it. Especially since we have almost no sample size it is likely that there will be a weight slider for dwarves. It is way too early to write something off as "not ok." My first character in Neverwinter was a dwarf and personally, I think they're a little too cartoony. Better than WoW dwarves, but still pretty cartoony.

    I love dwarves - they are my favorite race. But I'm open-minded enough to realize that there is more than one "right" way to do dwarves. Just because it doesn't match what you're used to doesn't mean it's "not ok." It's all part of creative license. I mean, Terminus dwarves are made of freaking ice and stone. They don't even really have muscles at all. I, for one, think that's pretty sweet. Regardless, dwarves, like humans and every other race, come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Have you seen the Duergar from D&D? Don't be so narrow-minded. I imagine you'll have the option to make your thick dwarf. But that doesn't necessarily mean every dwarf will look like that.

    • 500 posts
    January 9, 2017 7:42 PM PST

    Just because it doesn't match what you're used to doesn't mean it's "not ok." It's all part of creative license. I mean, Terminus dwarves are made of freaking ice and stone. They don't even really have muscles at all. I, for one, think that's pretty sweet. Regardless, dwarves, like humans and every other race, come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Have you seen the Duergar from D&D? Don't be so narrow-minded. I imagine you'll have the option to make your thick dwarf. But that doesn't necessarily mean every dwarf will look like that.

     

    Hi Bazgrim, 

    Hey, calm down a bit friend. Take a read at my post again and see that I went through a lot to explain how all of this was an opinion. And it is my opinion that the current iteration of dwarves is "not ok." The goal of my post was to draw attention to my opinion and request for a second pass. I am not trying to pass off my opinion as some kind of global truth everyone should be wary of and cater to. I do not know how many feel the same as I or how many disagree, but as you re-read you will note I am merely sharing an opinion, a request, and leaving a space open for discussion for people to also add to this if they feel the same. 

    While I cannot stop anyone from disagreeing, I can certainly make a request to have people share how they feel respectfully.

     

    Please be careful Bazgrim, saying things like 'Don't be so narrow-minded', That is insulting, and I don't care for it. I feel like if you read my original post again you would understand things a little better. I'm sorry if anything I wrote miscommunicated anything. Text is hard to work with but its all we got.  Thanks for joining the discussion.

     

    -Todd

    • 750 posts
    January 10, 2017 3:12 AM PST

    Hey Todd, welcome back matey! Glad your ok and back on the forums!

    That dwarf probably could do with a little beefing up!  Though he is a caster so maybe Kils made him less bulky on purpose, maybe the character creation gives many options / ranges  like that!  Also remember he is (i am fairly sure) in a robe and robes tend to always make a player look less beefy akin to that (for me personally) a robe on a dwarf is not something i am used to seeing! 

    Definitely interested to see what a armoured dwarf looks like and i hope in full plate they are like a little barrel of metal and beard!!

    Stay safe mate and welcome back!

     

    • 1179 posts
    January 10, 2017 10:41 AM PST

    I think we're pretty likely to have a bunch of sliders since they were in Vanguard.  I've only ever played Vanguard in the new emulator, but Hokanu might have a point there. Kilsin was an enchanter.  When I made caster characters in the emulator, I usually made them skinny.

    • 8 posts
    January 11, 2017 10:00 AM PST

    tehtawd said:

    My request is 'a second pass' to be taken on the dwarf race to make them a little ‘bigger’, a little ‘prouder’. When you look at them do you want to see a small bearded child? Or do you want to see a miniature Ogre? 

     

    I would like a small bearded child please. The Neverwinter version looks absolutely ridiculous and anatomically improbable.

    Let's have a dwarf that is believable, that doesn't look like a cartoonish Games Workshop product, aesthetically pleasing, and perhaps draws a bit more from their mythological background.

    The current dwarf model has excellent proportions.

    • 278 posts
    January 11, 2017 11:04 AM PST

    Hey everyone -

    Tawd, great question. Sorry to hear about the medical and automotive ails. Hope you're back on the mend.

    We will have race-specifric sliders that will allow for reasonable and appropriate variance. But I appreciate the feedback as always. I can't say whether or not the norms of the final iteration will be more to your liking, but I can say that we're not done tinkering with proportions, relative size and so on. I personally think the Neverwinter version is a bit brawny and muscular, but I can see where you're coming from. As someone who's constantly trying to depict what I'm thinking with supplimentary art (or in the worst cases, my own), I value your effort and think it demontrates how much it matters to you. Kudos.

    As a general thought to everyone, I just ask you to keep two things in mind:

    1. We can handle criticism. From the moment I came on to the team we've had an armada of critics, skeptics and mean-spirited commentary from the broader community -- a lot of it waranted. One of the greatest joys I've had so far is to see that armada dwindle to a small convoy and many doubters change their flags to VR's colors, or at least come to an even place of watching and waiting to see what we do. But at the same time a portion of that criticism was then and can still be warranted. Again: we can handle it.

    2. Stick together. Even when you disagree. No matter what level of quality game we produce, you all will decide whether or not we succeed. That chance of success is bolstered when there's a level of care extended to each other that is unique and welcoming. Passion is critical, just don't let it overwhelm the dispute. I know that's a foreign language on the internet right now, but I hope it'll flourish over time.

    Thanks everyone for the passion you bring daily to the board. You all are the best.

    JN


    This post was edited by Istuulamae at January 12, 2017 8:15 AM PST
    • 79 posts
    January 11, 2017 2:14 PM PST

    Istuulamae said:

    ... I personally think the Neverwinter version is a bit brawny and muscular, but I can see where you're coming from...

    "In one hand, he held a fragment of stone from the heart of Coldark Peak, the mountain he himself shaped to be the throne of the Triumvirate. In the other hand, he held a shard of the Ice of Ry’Fel, which she gave joyfully to him, willing him to add its life to the Dwarven people. Lock, Ehn and Hammur were all present, giving their approval. With perfect balance and pressure, Khazas pressed Coldark’s fragment and the Ice of Ry’Fel into each other, until the resonance and power created by the fusion shook Oldassa’s oldest foundations. Then in a moment, the first Dwarves opened their eyes to see the Dwarven Father."

    To me this process sounds like you would come out with a stocky Diamond from Coal not a Jelly Donut.


    This post was edited by Dwyvyrn at January 11, 2017 2:15 PM PST
    • 500 posts
    January 11, 2017 8:32 PM PST

    Tod, great question.

     

    *sobs* Istuuuuuul... my name has two D's  *sobs*  whyyyyyyyy. 

     

    -Todd

    • 278 posts
    January 12, 2017 8:16 AM PST

    tehtawd said:

    Tod, great question.

     

    *sobs* Istuuuuuul... my name has two D's  *sobs*  whyyyyyyyy. 

     

    -Todd

     

    I fixed it! How about now?

    • 278 posts
    January 12, 2017 8:18 AM PST

    Dwyvyrn said:

    Istuulamae said:

    ... I personally think the Neverwinter version is a bit brawny and muscular, but I can see where you're coming from...

    "In one hand, he held a fragment of stone from the heart of Coldark Peak, the mountain he himself shaped to be the throne of the Triumvirate. In the other hand, he held a shard of the Ice of Ry’Fel, which she gave joyfully to him, willing him to add its life to the Dwarven people. Lock, Ehn and Hammur were all present, giving their approval. With perfect balance and pressure, Khazas pressed Coldark’s fragment and the Ice of Ry’Fel into each other, until the resonance and power created by the fusion shook Oldassa’s oldest foundations. Then in a moment, the first Dwarves opened their eyes to see the Dwarven Father."

    To me this process sounds like you would come out with a stocky Diamond from Coal not a Jelly Donut.



    While there may be jelly in the middle, Dwarves will most certainly not look like donuts.

    • 500 posts
    January 12, 2017 12:08 PM PST

    Istuulamae said:

    tehtawd said:

    Tod, great question.

     

    *sobs* Istuuuuuul... my name has two D's  *sobs*  whyyyyyyyy. 

     

    -Todd

     

    I fixed it! How about now?

     

    :D

    • 79 posts
    January 13, 2017 10:04 AM PST

    Istuulamae said:

    Dwyvyrn said:

    Istuulamae said:

    ... I personally think the Neverwinter version is a bit brawny and muscular, but I can see where you're coming from...

    "In one hand, he held a fragment of stone from the heart of Coldark Peak, the mountain he himself shaped to be the throne of the Triumvirate. In the other hand, he held a shard of the Ice of Ry’Fel, which she gave joyfully to him, willing him to add its life to the Dwarven people. Lock, Ehn and Hammur were all present, giving their approval. With perfect balance and pressure, Khazas pressed Coldark’s fragment and the Ice of Ry’Fel into each other, until the resonance and power created by the fusion shook Oldassa’s oldest foundations. Then in a moment, the first Dwarves opened their eyes to see the Dwarven Father."

    To me this process sounds like you would come out with a stocky Diamond from Coal not a Jelly Donut.



    While there may be jelly in the middle, Dwarves will most certainly not look like donuts.

    Mountain Rock and Special Ice with "perfect balance and pressure".  Change the recipe if you want Jelly filled Dwarves.

    Frankly, I'm agreeing that while the look and presence of the dwarves seem to be a take from Norse Ice Jotunn, they appear to be missing some muscle bulk, or at least some wider/thicker structure in the chest and shoulders.

    • 278 posts
    January 14, 2017 11:01 AM PST

    Dwyvyrn said:

    Istuulamae said:

    Dwyvyrn said:

    Istuulamae said:

    ... I personally think the Neverwinter version is a bit brawny and muscular, but I can see where you're coming from...

    "In one hand, he held a fragment of stone from the heart of Coldark Peak, the mountain he himself shaped to be the throne of the Triumvirate. In the other hand, he held a shard of the Ice of Ry’Fel, which she gave joyfully to him, willing him to add its life to the Dwarven people. Lock, Ehn and Hammur were all present, giving their approval. With perfect balance and pressure, Khazas pressed Coldark’s fragment and the Ice of Ry’Fel into each other, until the resonance and power created by the fusion shook Oldassa’s oldest foundations. Then in a moment, the first Dwarves opened their eyes to see the Dwarven Father."

    To me this process sounds like you would come out with a stocky Diamond from Coal not a Jelly Donut.



    While there may be jelly in the middle, Dwarves will most certainly not look like donuts.

    Mountain Rock and Special Ice with "perfect balance and pressure".  Change the recipe if you want Jelly filled Dwarves.

    Frankly, I'm agreeing that while the look and presence of the dwarves seem to be a take from Norse Ice Jotunn, they appear to be missing some muscle bulk, or at least some wider/thicker structure in the chest and shoulders.

     

    I should have been more frank myself, rather than glib. Thanks, Dwyvryn.

    The final version of the Dwarves will look very similar to the concept art. That's the best point of reference we have for you guys. The mass and girth will be there, and the version that was in the stream is simply not the best representation of a normal dwarf. Their strength and solidity will not be in question when we launch.

    Thanks everyone.

    • 500 posts
    January 14, 2017 11:40 PM PST

    The final version of the Dwarves will look very similar to the concept art. That's the best point of reference we have for you guys. The mass and girth will be there, and the version that was in the stream is simply not the best representation of a normal dwarf. Their strength and solidity will not be in question when we launch.

    Wow, great! Just what I was hoping to hear.

     


    This I believe is Pantheon's concept art for a Dwarf. This is super perfect. 

     

    -Todd

    • 278 posts
    January 15, 2017 7:15 AM PST

    tehtawd said:

    The final version of the Dwarves will look very similar to the concept art. That's the best point of reference we have for you guys. The mass and girth will be there, and the version that was in the stream is simply not the best representation of a normal dwarf. Their strength and solidity will not be in question when we launch.

    Wow, great! Just what I was hoping to hear.

     


    This I believe is Pantheon's concept art for a Dwarf. This is super perfect. 

     

    -Todd

     

    Just the dwarf I was looking for. That is correct. 

    • 272 posts
    January 23, 2017 2:45 PM PST

    Let's not forget, the one in the streams is a scrawny academic not a robust warrior :p

    • Moderator
    • 8766 posts
    January 23, 2017 4:53 PM PST

    Xilshale said:

    Let's not forget, the one in the streams is a scrawny academic not a robust warrior :p

    Correct, I was using a caster version for my Enchanter Dwarf just to show off the character model, plus with character customization options you should be able to make the Dwarf suit your preferences ;)

    • 79 posts
    January 30, 2017 4:45 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Xilshale said:

    Let's not forget, the one in the streams is a scrawny academic not a robust warrior :p

    Correct, I was using a caster version for my Enchanter Dwarf just to show off the character model, plus with character customization options you should be able to make the Dwarf suit your preferences ;)

     

    Is that a bit of a teaser on the type of custimization options?  More than just the simple face choice of the past?

    • 66 posts
    July 13, 2018 12:48 AM PDT
    I will put in my two coppers. I would like dwarves to appear more stout than compact.
    • 66 posts
    July 13, 2018 12:48 AM PDT

    sorry duplicate 


    This post was edited by Tahoe at July 17, 2018 1:50 AM PDT
    • 16 posts
    August 25, 2018 3:25 AM PDT

    Just to add my two cents, I think VR's concept art looks amazing, it's the first dwarf I've seen that has this level of coolness. Most dwarves in video games follow the "Gimli" type model in LOTR. VR's version looks pretty badass.