and that is because it locked you out of content which you will never experience.
Prime example : Plane of Growth. Back in Velious Tunare dropped the best 2 Hander for my Paladin. But ....damn I was a follower of Tunare. So 90% of my Guild went to PoG and killed Tunare while the Woodelfs, Highelfs and most Paladins logged off and watched TV because if you killed Tunare you were instant Kill on Sight in your Hometown. Any Quests in Plane of Growth you could never do again on your character. No Way to repair PoG faction. Now when Luclin launched ...i was laughing cause the other pallies destroyed their faction and I could just go for Emperor 2 Hander. One of the buddies even rerolled his Paladin.
So 1) Please dont make ANY one way factions. Its just blocking people out of content and making them unhappy.
2) unnecessary factions are .... what they are. Your Faction standing with Bugs of this hole got worse. You already been ready to attack anyway. Whats the use of this? Dont make faction just to have them. I remember for example in Luclin : The Deep faction. Shiknar Faction ...you had to kill them to get your Vex Thal key ...but no way to repair the faction. These bugs been everywhere in luclin just to annoy you.
I really dont like the faction system at all. Even knowing you cant repair the faction. I was talking about Plane of Growth in the beginning. The same went on in Luclin. Emperor Seru... i never killed him cause i didnt wanna be KOS in Seru.
So please , make factions similarto Vanguard. I dont mind working for faction but dont lock people who care about faction out of content.
This is a discussion that has come up a half dozen times or more using this same example as a basis for their argument.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3395/unreversable-faction-hits/view/page/1
I loved it and would love to see it again. I want my choices to matter. I also miss deity selection in games and want that to matter. I remember being KoS in WFP on the paladin because I killed Lucan. That was annoying, but at least the lore behind it made sense. Further, you had to convince a bunch of other people to give up their faction in order to get it done. That made SoulFire (and its decendants) that much more special. I like that you couldn't repair that hit, but if they avoided permanent KoS situations and just made it extremely difficult and time-consuming to repair the faction, I'd be fine with that.
Maybe there were situations where you were getting messages that a faction was getting worse when it couldn't be repaired anyway, but I think the goal was to have it so somewhere there was a way to raise it. All of the different factions make the world feel more real to me. I haven't really experienced the Vanguard system. I imagine we will have a blend of the two with some twists and new mechanics as with the rest of the game, though.
EDIT: More typos
The EQ faction system was amazing. The fact that not everyone had access to everything, and that you had to unlock portions of the game made each character's experience different, providing flavor and variety for each player. Probably one of the game's most endearing qualities.
The idea that everything must be streamlined so everyone can do everything is exactly what ails games today.
Dullahan said:The idea that everything must be streamlined so everyone can do everything is exactly what ails games today.
Yes. It makes sense that you wouldn't kill your own god or goddess, but that others who don't worship him/her might. Choices. Choices are paramount to the experience I'm looking to find.
Sevens said:I loved this system...If you are a follower of Tunare why the hell would you be trying to kill Tunare?
I dont know, maybe because I value the RP aspect of the game more than just the Game aspect of the game
This, I was a follower of Tunare, I just refused to have anything to do with killing my Deity. There are others to kill when the opportunity comes along. It's not all about the "phat loots" ..you choose your path and your faction hits. If you regret that faction hit..then you have to do the work to recover your faction, so your home town doesn't hate you any more. Been there done that. I was willing to work hard for what I wanted, when it came to faction. One has to be wise about what one chooses, as it can affect you down the road.
CanadinaXegony said:Beefcake said:Don't be good. Problem solved. Evil kills evil, that's expected.
That kind of eliminates some of the reason for faction, roleplay. If everyone is evil, what's the point. Should be choices.
It was a joke. That's the problem with good-aligned factions. They have no sense if humor. That's why their gods get pissed when you kill them.
I thoroughly enjoyed the faction system in EverQuest. It made sense to me. I also thoroughly abused it and was absued by it.
My first character that I made real progress on was a Halfling Druid. A follower of Karana, he made his way to South Karana during his 19th level to join his guild mates hunting a horrible creature known as "a treant". These nasty treants were known to possess excellent coin loot. So... many treants were slain and the young halfling who knew little of faction at that point became quite kill on sight with the denizens of the druid circles. This became quite amusing when he got into his late 30's and had to run away immediately when he would succor his group away to safety ;-)
I later rolled what would become my main character and EverQuest love affair, a Dark Elf Necromancer. Faction. Pfft. What faction? So long as I had a couple of places (and I mean literally a couple... Nerik... OT... gypsie merchants, and I think the sewers of Qeynos), I took great pleasure in ruining every other faction that I came across, including some other evil ones.
With much regard, I hope for a faction system as complex and varied as the original EverQuest.
I don't see why the best of both worlds couldn't happen. Tunare had a 2h pally sword you wanted, then Tunare should also offer a quest to kill another god for that sword if you are revered with her or whatever your high level faction rating is. Simple compromise.
I also agree with almost every poster here, factions are a good way to balance the consquences of your actions. In fact, I'd even like to see pvp where players lose faction by killing other players. Not prevent PVP, but if you repeatedly corpse camp a newb who is aligned to the same god or city as you, then you take faction hits to those places too. Haha, I could see some real mayhem happen then.
I like pvp servers, even if I don't like to PVP, just adds realism to it. But the faction hits could be maybe a ruleset for a server instead of the norm. Just throwing ideas out haha.
I thought the EQ faction system was perfect.
In fact, I took great pride in playing the only human cleric on my server with Paineel armor. Not that it was great armor, but it had a distinctive look that nobody else had. That it took months of mindless AE kobold slaughtering in the Warrens actually made me want it more.
The side effect of being able to walk around in Paineel was pretty cool too.
Choice is supposed to matter. That's part of the basics of the game. But, are all choices unforgivable?
I would like to think think there is an available path to redemption. Hard work and such, but doable.
Then again, killing your god is kind of unforgivable to your god. But, maybe devs should make gods killable in the first place.
Ths is an ego creep issue that a lot of games have. SWTOR for example, before you hit level 50, you are made part of the Dark Council or equivalent. Now, the the current expansion, you become the emperor. What's the next step, Sith God?
Less padding of ego in our quests and fewer unforgivable choices have to be made.
I have mixed feelings on this, but no strong opinion either way other than I hope it wouldnt cause inner-guild conflicts with being able to participate in guild activities. Does everybody just decide to all take the exact same faction choices? With a handful of members, I could see that being no big deal. But with say 75-150 members......? Well I guess its not completely unmanagable, but it sounds like a potential cluster.
Beefcake said:CanadinaXegony said:Beefcake said:Don't be good. Problem solved. Evil kills evil, that's expected.
That kind of eliminates some of the reason for faction, roleplay. If everyone is evil, what's the point. Should be choices.
It was a joke. That's the problem with good-aligned factions. They have no sense if humor. That's why their gods get pissed when you kill them.
Jokes and or sarcasm are a little hard to detect in text sometimes. :P Usually why I put a smiley or a tongue-in-cheek emote behind my words. :D My God is not peed at me, she wuvs me :D
Amsai said:I have mixed feelings on this, but no strong opinion either way other than I hope it wouldnt cause inner-guild conflicts with being able to participate in guild activities. Does everybody just decide to all take the exact same faction choices? With a handful of members, I could see that being no big deal. But with say 75-150 members......? Well I guess its not completely unmanagable, but it sounds like a potential cluster.
Nope I was a bit of a rebel when it came to faction choosing, (Skyshrine!! was my favorite place for Dragon faction) gained good faction there, by killing the little white spiders over and over again. Also the big giants (Frost Giants?) Kael. After I was allied with that Dragon Faction, could use their vendors and bank there. My guild was KOS hehe.
I will join the pro-EQ faction side. I don't see a real problem with it at all. This is an area where I believe it is more important to be logical than just what's easiest to play. If there's content that is not immediately available to you, you can either grind to get the faction you want or just freaking make a new alt that can already access it. That's basically just how the world works. As the great philosopher Jagger once said, "You can't always get what you want." There's always gonna be people that don't like you based on the choices you've made and therefore won't let you into their exclusive clubs and do the things they do. I say deal with it.
Bazgrim said:I will join the pro-EQ faction side. I don't see a real problem with it at all. This is an area where I believe it is more important to be logical than just what's easiest to play. If there's content that is not immediately available to you, you can either grind to get the faction you want or just freaking make a new alt that can already access it. That's basically just how the world works. As the great philosopher Jagger once said, "You can't always get what you want." There's always gonna be people that don't like you based on the choices you've made and therefore won't let you into their exclusive clubs and do the things they do. I say deal with it.
"You can't always get what you want..but if you try sometime, you get what you need. " - Rolling Stones. :)
I disagree. I think the fact that things were left under the hood was the better way of doing things, in general. Do we really need to know exactly how much reputation we have? Do we really need to have every stat, ability, skill completely exposed and down to the formulas? I don't think so.
I like the mystery of not knowing exactly how much faction I had or exactly how much experience a kill gave me. Much like how my reputation with people or my experience with something in real life isn't quantified.
Those things only make the end product more of a game, and less of a world, imo.
If it was up to me, the factions tab would show nothing but the faction name: faction level. No bars, no numbers, no percentages. If it was up to me though, we'd have a character sheet, a settings menu, and not much else.