Forums » The Bard

Melee vs ranged

    • 1895 posts
    February 19, 2017 10:28 AM PST

    Swarm kiting wont be a thing. And it seems like while kiting wont be something you can do all the time with any mob, it will still be possible. Though this is yet another thing to work out in testing.

     

    Also Plate isnt make or break to me, but just wanted to correct something. You dont put Bards in leather and cloth because they are being treated like casters, you put them in it because they are in the same family of scout classes. This is also standard in D&D. That being said Pantheon is its own game and if they want to give Bard plate armor I guess thats okay too.

    • 10 posts
    February 20, 2017 2:48 AM PST

    Amsai said:

    You dont put Bards in leather and cloth because they are being treated like casters, you put them in it because they are in the same family of scout classes. This is also standard in D&D. That being said Pantheon is its own game and if they want to give Bard plate armor I guess thats okay too.

    Bards in Pantheon will most likely be influnced or similar too (Im sure you know) VSOH and EQ Bards. Between the two I hope they lean towards EQ bards, but that just my preference, but for all we know they may take a seperate route.

    In regards to armor If you go back and look, I am talking about "newer MMOs" Like Rift and chinese wow clones where Bards are wearing leather or cloth and regulated to healers with some buffs, or Casters that buff. Regardless that Bards fall into melee class, we are also the "Jack of all trades and master of none". We should be able to touch on some(very small some) of the main characteristics of the other archetypes. Ranged DOTs making us caster like, Hymns that allow us to Heal, Armor and AC buffs to make ourselves and group tougher.

    Myself I want plate like in EQ and EQOA (before they nerfed it to chain) or the very least Chain with a Decent group AC buff. In regards to wear that fits into this topic, it doesnt, but was mentioned by someone else i agreed with. I will say, if we are a ranged class, there is no need to wear chain or plate. Myself I hope that doesnt happen or they fix it wear wearing less armor increase range and damage of our DOTs. That would be cool and give us more choice. 

    Regardless, I am watching and waiting for when Bards do come out (may be a while). Even if they turn my Fav class into something I dont like, I still plan to play Pantheon and will main a Paladin (my second fav).

     

    • 323 posts
    February 20, 2017 10:57 AM PST

    I prefer plate, though I'm fine with leather I suppose. Chain.... no. We'd sound like tambourines and it'd mess up our beautiful music.

    • 1895 posts
    February 20, 2017 1:23 PM PST
    LOL. Good point.

    Unless of course you main Tambourine hehe.
    • 679 posts
    February 20, 2017 3:55 PM PST

    Fingers crossed for melee, personally. 

    • 53 posts
    February 21, 2017 4:13 AM PST

    To me, bards can either be melee or ranged attack, they have the same two arms as the others.

     

    But i think they should have leather armor. A bard with plate doesn't fit. Can you really imagine a character playing a flute or lute on a plate armor ? How about the helmet and the gloves ? Damn that doesn't fit.

     

    BG2 => leather armor, up to chainmail

    Neverwinter nights => leather armor, up to chainmail

    DDO => Leather or light armor (debuff on heavier armor)

    AA => possible to wear anything but you get bonuses from cloth armor

     

    Any lore that i know of : definitely dagger, rapier, short bow, leather or cloth armor.

     

    Cheers


    This post was edited by Gideon at February 21, 2017 4:14 AM PST
    • 323 posts
    February 21, 2017 7:29 AM PST

    Gideon said:

    A bard with plate doesn't fit.

    What about a...

    heavy metal bard?

    To all that read that horrible line, sorry...

    • 10 posts
    February 22, 2017 1:55 AM PST

    Gideon said:

    But i think they should have leather armor. A bard with plate doesn't fit. Can you really imagine a character playing a flute or lute on a plate armor ? How about the helmet and the gloves ? Damn that doesn't fit.

     

    BG2 => leather armor, up to chainmail

    Neverwinter nights => leather armor, up to chainmail

    DDO => Leather or light armor (debuff on heavier armor)

    AA => possible to wear anything but you get bonuses from cloth armor

     

     

    I follow you on your examples, I really do, and makes sense. but their Influnces to Pantheon falls short for this main reason. None of these are Old school MMOs (I see two old school RPGs there), but doesnt mean we cant take good ideas from them. 

    Again I do follow you on your examples, but understand heavier influnce wiil come from MMOs like VSOH, EQ, and i will throw in DOAC. Why becuase Pantheon's core fan base is built primarly out of those "old school" mmos. In short I could care less what they do in any other MMOs or RPGs. Dispite that even if some of us have expectations of the game or specifically classes due to those earlier expierences, VR will do what they choose as this is a new MMO. I will add VSOH and EQ also have something else in common and its the main reason alot of us are very interested in Pantheon.


    That said

    VSOH Bard - Medium Armor
    EQ Bard - Plate
    DOAC Bard - Chain (SKald and Minstrel)
    EQOA Bard - Plate (Later nerfed to chain in first expansion)

    Gimme Plate !!

     

     


    This post was edited by Arlore at February 22, 2017 1:58 AM PST
    • 53 posts
    February 22, 2017 3:42 AM PST

    Hello,

     

    You may have other game examples with bards with plates, but i'll picture my point of view. Since i have trouble inserting images i'll put links.

     

    plate helmet

     

    plate gloves

     

    flute

     

    lute

     

    After seeing these images, do you still consider playing a music instrument with a plate armor ? That's my main point. That doesn't fit. It's just common sense. You can't put the flute to your mouth, you can't pull one string at a time, you can't fill the holes, etc.

     

    I also know seeing illogic things in a game tends to break immersion.

     

    If another game, may this game be you reference, made illogic features, it should be rectified in a new game to make a more coherent game.

     

    Noone has ever played music on a plate armor. If you manage to find someone do it, he's probably a joker and playing 3 notes. It could be funny, but it would not be good music as a bard is supposed to do to buff you.

     

    Or make bards play drums.

     

    Cheers


    This post was edited by Gideon at February 22, 2017 4:11 AM PST
    • 277 posts
    February 22, 2017 7:23 AM PST

    Gideon said:

    Hello,

     

    You may have other game examples with bards with plates, but i'll picture my point of view. Since i have trouble inserting images i'll put links.

     

    plate helmet

     

    plate gloves

     

    flute

     

    lute

     

    After seeing these images, do you still consider playing a music instrument with a plate armor ? That's my main point. That doesn't fit. It's just common sense. You can't put the flute to your mouth, you can't pull one string at a time, you can't fill the holes, etc.

     

    I also know seeing illogic things in a game tends to break immersion.

     

    If another game, may this game be you reference, made illogic features, it should be rectified in a new game to make a more coherent game.

     

    Noone has ever played music on a plate armor. If you manage to find someone do it, he's probably a joker and playing 3 notes. It could be funny, but it would not be good music as a bard is supposed to do to buff you.

     

    Or make bards play drums.

     

    Cheers

     

    Armour was often crafted for the fighting style of the person. Plate helm for a Bard would not have a face shield. Gauntlets would not cover the fingers but protect the wrists and back of the hands. Chainmail could hinder just as much as plate if not designed for a Bard in mind. IMO, I want to see EQ1 Plated Bard.

    • 679 posts
    February 22, 2017 10:51 AM PST

    Gideon said:

    Hello,

     

    You may have other game examples with bards with plates, but i'll picture my point of view. Since i have trouble inserting images i'll put links.

     

    After seeing these images, do you still consider playing a music instrument with a plate armor ? That's my main point. That doesn't fit. It's just common sense. You can't put the flute to your mouth, you can't pull one string at a time, you can't fill the holes, etc.

     

    I also know seeing illogic things in a game tends to break immersion.

     

    If another game, may this game be you reference, made illogic features, it should be rectified in a new game to make a more coherent game.

     

    Noone has ever played music on a plate armor. If you manage to find someone do it, he's probably a joker and playing 3 notes. It could be funny, but it would not be good music as a bard is supposed to do to buff you.

     

     

    These kinds of arguments tend to fall short to me, unless in this game the bard does not do melee or ranged physical damage of any kind and instead spends his entire time playing said instruments in a group. Not to mention wearing gloves in general would be of huge detriment (save for maybe very tight thin leather gloves) regardless of if they were cloth or plate. In fact plate gauntlets might even be better in many circumstances. Plate would produce sound much better on a hand drum and they could have small "fingernail" picks for plucking strings, lacking only for wind instruments. 

     

    I would also like to see the plate bard of EQ return. The idea was that when an instrument was not equipped, the bard was singing the songs. Which anyone could do while in full plate. Instruments were usually only brought out in specific situations such as for travel or when the bard needed to focus all his energy on keeping CC up. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at February 22, 2017 10:54 AM PST
    • 1895 posts
    February 22, 2017 11:54 AM PST

    @Iksar

     

    While I would thematically and traditionally prefer a leather and cloth bard, Ill be fine with a plate one. I had an EQ friend explain it and now I understand its almost the equivalent of FFXIs Job Class Armor. I think the term he used was Blue Bards. And that Plate was an accomplishment for a Bard in EQ so that armor is very Iconic of the EQ Bard. There might be something lost in translation there, but thats how he explained it to me. And actually helps me understand why EQ Bards seem so insistant upon Plate. Which is fine.

     

    However as to your above exlplanation I hope that is not the case. A bit off topic but I think a Bards primary and most important role should be buffing allies, and I sincerely hope music instruments are very central to this. And not just something they need on special occaisions. In fact the only time I think it would be appropriate not to need an instrument is with a buff or debuff that voice is more effective (implying other times you need a harp or a flute etc). Or in the case you are DPSing with sword or bow. But basically I want instruments to be central to Bard gameplay and everything else to be just the other cool stuff Bards can do. So Im thinking something on the order of 80:20 in favor of Bards having an instrument out. Just seems right.

    • 277 posts
    February 22, 2017 1:49 PM PST

    Bards could boost their songs by using the right instrument or just sung with just a little less effect. Was a 50-50 thing, half the time swapping instrument to give the best boost to their songs. Or just singing the songs and doing melee. You would get some bards who hotkeyed instrument and weapons to do melee and swap in an instrument just as some song needed a boost and swap right back to melee. Some bards were sloppy with their songs and loved to melee. Other Bards did not melee and twisted 4-5 songs and swapped instrument to give the biggest boost. I really hope we get mostly an EQ1 bard. Still my fav class I have ever played.   

     


    This post was edited by Nanfoodle at February 22, 2017 1:49 PM PST
    • 1895 posts
    February 22, 2017 4:58 PM PST

    Nanfoodle said:

    Bards could boost their songs by using the right instrument or just sung with just a little less effect. Was a 50-50 thing, half the time swapping instrument to give the best boost to their songs. Or just singing the songs and doing melee. You would get some bards who hotkeyed instrument and weapons to do melee and swap in an instrument just as some song needed a boost and swap right back to melee. Some bards were sloppy with their songs and loved to melee. Other Bards did not melee and twisted 4-5 songs and swapped instrument to give the biggest boost. I really hope we get mostly an EQ1 bard. Still my fav class I have ever played.   

     

     

    Sounds like a very busy Bard, which is what they should be! The life of the party, dancing around the battlefield, and showering allies with buffs and foes with debuffs as they spit out some DPS. Ever ready to lock a mob down, or to pull out that swiss army UTILITY knife.

    • 13 posts
    March 10, 2017 7:33 PM PST

    I know I'm going to get a lot of dislikes with this post, but (disclaimer) this is my OPINION.  I would like to see an actual "bard".  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard) Not a super fast, plate-wearing, weak melee, buff bi**h.
    By that I mean I would like to see them wear up to medium armor and use up to light melee weapons (like any other caster), while primarily relying on their song and instruments (that use a resource different than casters) to be most effective (similar to the DAoC bard).  To compare the DAoC bard to EQ1, they were effectively a highly mobile enchanter that could heal and deal moderate ranged spell dmg.  When built correctly, they didn't need melee or ranged weapons because they could deal comprable damage with their music (while CC'n, healing, buffing, and being highly mobile).

    The EQ1 plate-wearing (with low defense skill) dual wielding (without double or tripple-attack) bard "looked cool" but if you were trying to tank or melee DPS as a bard without the singing short sword, you were probably not contributing to the group as much as you think you were compared to an actual tank or melee class.  Not to discourage people from playing how they want, but I would hate to invite a bard to the group because of a set of songs that could greatly benefit the group just to find out that the person doesn't want to sing/play the songs because it requires an instrument and they want to "look cool" dual wielding in their plate armor.

    • 10 posts
    March 11, 2017 4:00 AM PST

    Darch said:

    I know I'm going to get a lot of dislikes with this post, but (disclaimer) this is my OPINION.  I would like to see an actual "bard".  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard) Not a super fast, plate-wearing, weak melee, buff bi**h.

    By that I mean I would like to see them wear up to medium armor and use up to light melee weapons (like any other caster), while primarily relying on their song and instruments (that use a resource different than casters) to be most effective (similar to the DAoC bard).  To compare the DAoC bard to EQ1, they were effectively a highly mobile enchanter that could heal and deal moderate ranged spell dmg.  When built correctly, they didn't need melee or ranged weapons because they could deal comprable damage with their music (while CC'n, healing, buffing, and being highly mobile).

    The EQ1 plate-wearing (with low defense skill) dual wielding (without double or tripple-attack) bard "looked cool" but if you were trying to tank or melee DPS as a bard without the singing short sword, you were probably not contributing to the group as much as you think you were compared to an actual tank or melee class.  Not to discourage people from playing how they want, but I would hate to invite a bard to the group because of a set of songs that could greatly benefit the group just to find out that the person doesn't want to sing/play the songs because it requires an instrument and they want to "look cool" dual wielding in their plate armor.

     

    We all have a wish list, but have to say Bards are not casters. They are melees, jacks of all trade, but they are melees, atleast by EQ and VSOH standards

    Bards having the weakset dps, well It is genearly expected they will do the least damage of melees with sword and damage songs combined. That makes sense too, becuase if they did comparable damage to other melee classes, they would be futher preferred (overpowered) over other melee classes.  

    In DAoC , Bard was 1 of 3 bard like classes, the other two were Skald and Minstrel. both wore Chain The 3 classes were designed to play slightly different but they all buffed. Bards in DAOC could act as back up heals, and Skalds didnt need instruments, they just shouted. If one of those classes were similar to a EQ Bard, minstrel was probably the closest, but still not the same thing.

    In regards to instruments, they can always show a instant weapon / instrument swap when they are casting buffs, then swaps back to weapon. They can fix this issue real easy. dont add instruments, just leave it too singing.

    As to why Bards had plate in EQ1, as to how I interpretted it. Its becuase we were the Best pullers in game. Thats why we had plate. We didnt tank ( well some of us did in EQOA) . 

    Myself as much as I would love to wear Plate again, I think the best i can hope to expect is Chain and a good group Armor buff. 

     

    Anyway, we can all post ideas, but I think the greatest influnece is probably going to come from EQ1 and VSOH. V/R might suprise us, but i think those 2 games will have some lingering influence when they get around to designing the bard class. .

    • 53 posts
    March 12, 2017 8:54 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    I know I'm going to get a lot of dislikes with this post, but (disclaimer) this is my OPINION.  I would like to see an actual "bard".  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bard) Not a super fast, plate-wearing, weak melee, buff bi**h.
    By that I mean I would like to see them wear up to medium armor and use up to light melee weapons (like any other caster), while primarily relying on their song and instruments (that use a resource different than casters) to be most effective (similar to the DAoC bard).  To compare the DAoC bard to EQ1, they were effectively a highly mobile enchanter that could heal and deal moderate ranged spell dmg.  When built correctly, they didn't need melee or ranged weapons because they could deal comprable damage with their music (while CC'n, healing, buffing, and being highly mobile).

    The EQ1 plate-wearing (with low defense skill) dual wielding (without double or tripple-attack) bard "looked cool" but if you were trying to tank or melee DPS as a bard without the singing short sword, you were probably not contributing to the group as much as you think you were compared to an actual tank or melee class.  Not to discourage people from playing how they want, but I would hate to invite a bard to the group because of a set of songs that could greatly benefit the group just to find out that the person doesn't want to sing/play the songs because it requires an instrument and they want to "look cool" dual wielding in their plate armor.

     

    I feel the same. If you want to play dual wield in plate armor, then why not play warrior, why should you pick a bard for that.

     

    If people want to come that way, i think a wizard in a plate armor would also be tougher. He would also deal more damage with two swords. Or a greataxe. An enchanter too. Same goes for shaman. But well. That's not the concept behind it is it ? Same goes for bard. I don't want a musician class to play like a warrior, nor do i want to see a warrior suddenly play a flute at level 10 between two critical hits. That's where limits have to be set. Or else that would suppose multiclassing, which is another topic. And if you just want to use your melee abilities all the time, what's the point in being a bard ?

    Also, i think justifying a game in development's content by simply quoting another old one given as a reference may be a bit short, when it comes to considering people trying to give another kind of opinion. Games don't have to be exactly the same. Indeed, if they were in all point similar, then why make a new one ? I fear some people use this argument when they fall short on others, and that tends to close debates anytime something is not "like EQ" and that some people want it to be kept. Please give another reason. I don't think anything is set in stone actually, one way or another. Referring to a game is not copying it all the way through.

     

    Cheers


    This post was edited by Gideon at March 12, 2017 9:24 AM PDT
    • 1895 posts
    March 12, 2017 9:03 PM PDT

    Dark Myr Bards?

    •      The Bard’s abilities aren’t limited to just buffing and uplifting their allies. Some of their songs will also demoralize foes, or manifest sonic based attacks. The Dark Myr definitely fit this side of the bard more so than most of the other “civilized” races.

     

    This is a quote from an explanation about the Dark Myr Bards from the race/class chart. This and some hints from the devs about Bard being another eventual CC class is all the info we really have on what Bards are from any official stance from the devs. Even still it does give us some information. So we can expect Bards to buff, debuff, CC, and apparently do sonic damage. Im not sure how buffing is any different from uplifting allies. Unless maybe resource regeneration? But I always counted that as a buff. There is no mention of utitlity skills but Im sure we all hope for them and likely will get some.

     

    This doesnt necessarily mean that Bards wont do any other damage type (though it could). It also unfortunately doesnt give us any clues about what weapons or armor types they will use. Other than the sonic damage, which heavily implies song/instruments will matter. And if we use them for some sonic damage, then they will likely use them for the buffing and CC, etc.

     

    And although we can reference EQ and VG Bards for clues as to how they will be designed and played, there will more than likely be differences. One of the reasons (aside from budget/time) Bard was put on the back burner was because they recognized Bard (and Necro) as being rather different. Brad has said that they want to take the proper time to design them right. From the FAQ the devs have said "they will be unique and important classes". I can only assume that designing them "right" is in reference to making them fit expectations for Bard and/or not repeating mistakes from EQ or VG or other games in which they were maybe too OP? (Swarm Kiting or Soloing Bosses, etc). As for Important, that is likely most due to them being a good support/CC class. Lastly, that unique part makes me think we shouldnt rely too much on EQ or VG as determining how they will play. That doesnt mean they will be alien to what we would expect. But if you look at Druid, while there isnt a lot of information on them, its expected they will be similar how they functioned in EQ or VG. However, one way in which VR is making them unique to Pantheon is their ability to cast atmospheres/auras (look up the example given in the very first newsletter).

     

    Ultimately its a wait and see for us. More so than any other class aside from Necro, and of course classes in future expansions. I do know that VR has been paying attention to what Bards have been saying in these forums and other places. And apparently if nothing else we can tell from their inclusion in the race/class chart that they are already thinking about their place in the game if nothing else. Which is encouraging.

     

     

    • 655 posts
    March 12, 2017 9:12 PM PDT

    I absolutely loved everything about the EQ 1 Bard and hope it comes close in Pantheon.  That being said, 70% melee with the rest ranged possibilities. 

    • 10 posts
    March 13, 2017 3:11 AM PDT

    Gideon said:

    Also, i think justifying a game in development's content by simply quoting another old one given as a reference may be a bit short, when it comes to considering people trying to give another kind of opinion. Games don't have to be exactly the same. Indeed, if they were in all point similar, then why make a new one ? I fear some people use this argument when they fall short on others, and that tends to close debates anytime something is not "like EQ" and that some people want it to be kept. Please give another reason. I don't think anything is set in stone actually, one way or another. Referring to a game is not copying it all the way through.

     Cheers

     

    No one knows how they will put out the Bard class, and they probably have not even really looked at it yet. 

    First thing i want to say is this, "Pantheon is not EQ1 or VSOH". What alot of us expect it to be though is a modern old school MMO.

    Now the reason VSOH and EQ1 are so referenced is becuase that is a large part of the market VR is targeting, Old school gamers. Dont get me wrong, I am sure V/R and the Pantheon community will welcome new players who want to get a feel for a old school MMO, that will just add to its success. The biggest reason though, alot of us reference EQ1 and VSOH so much, is becuase Brad McQuad was the key Designer of EverQuest and the Executive producer of VSOH. This is his prior work, and its a good basis to see what Pantheon draws from before it improves on. I am sure he will introduce new things for the sake of improving the game, just like the differences you see with Vangaurd classes over EQ1 classes. Majority of Vangaurds classes IMO were better. Not all, but most.  

    As to a Bard in Plate, yes, EQ had bards that wore plate, they were also considered the best Pullers in game, and being able to wear plate and mitigate dmg while pulling was a big plus. I know this very well, I did it for several years and enjoyed it. But, will Bards have plate in Pantheon, i dont know. My hope is we do get chain mail with a good group armor buff. I think the best thing to do is see how the other classes are designed, combat mechanics and see where Bards will fit in.

    You do know, you will most likely be free to wear cloth, or leather. Maybe when VR starts looking at Bards people could plugin how armor type should affect how a bard plays. Basically give bards a choice and let them be willing to deal results of that decision. IMO that is to much for one class to ask, but maybe being jack of all trades, they get armor choices as a option. Example chain vs leather, Leather gives you this bonus, where as chain gives this instead, Fill in the blanks at a later date.

     

    • 16 posts
    March 15, 2017 6:43 PM PDT

    Let's be honest... it may not be popular with EQ1 purists, but what kind of support musician wears plate armor, has two swords, and is still able to constantly finesse a flute, lute, or trumpet? EQ1 bard made zero sense, and at most it should be a chain and light arms class. <3. I dig Arlore's take. That could work. Still preferring a leather build, but I could dig it. We might need a little bit of durability as a "bard" would lack both the combat sense of a rogue and the constitution of a warrior.

    I see Bard as a half rogue or archer/half support caster.


    This post was edited by DeviantFox at March 15, 2017 6:47 PM PDT