So I found that there is in fact a forum post on this very topic, but it is hidden within the VIP forums.
So my thoughts on this, and purely opinion based. Back when I played DAoC, there was Character Collision. While it could be used to troll people, the person who was blocking a path put their reputation on the line. People would make sure to /w the person, to verify if they were afk or not, kindly remind them not to block a path, and if they responded in a way that wasn't very condusive to community building, the Community handled it. Now I have no idea what VR is planning to do with this, I am sure like everything else, it is on the table for pros and cons. But just my two cents, to have it, only adds to the immersion of the game.
You cannot walk through others, unless you have some sort of spell that turns you into a wraith, or allows you to phase into a different plane of existence. It makes the character models feel that much more "real". On the other hand, you open the door for people to physically block content. (just an FYI.. I am not saying that I have done this, but have seen it happen) One way this has been handled by the community: someone blocks a path, whispers/says fail to get them to move, so a mob train ia invited into the mix, everyone dies. (kinda extreme I know, but it happens)
On the other hand, if you limit where people can go AFK, then it becomes VERY evident that the person is just being a troll. Sure someone can walk away for 10 mins in a doorway, but what happens when the timer is up for inactivity? They are logged out, and kicked to the main screen, or a mob eats them.
GW2 is a great example of what not to do, before release, and into Beta, they kept saying how the character models felt so real, because you had combat that felt like you were physically hitting the mob. But that proved to be short of their mark, sure you have combat that feels like your actually hitting your target, but when you run up to that mob, and go STRAIGHT through them? It looses the immersive feel that they had been going for.
This is all my own opinion, curious what everyone thinks. I feel very passionate about the systems that pertain to immersion, and love the feeling you get when you can run up against a wall, and it feels like your character model is physically running up against a wall. So why should other models be any different?
One other thought, I know it is early, I am hopeful that the mobs you kill will interact with the environment, and not fall through it (thinking ragdoll mechanics). In all fairness, it is WAY to soon to make any kind of quality call on that though, everything is still being worked on, and they have stated time and time again that nothing is finalized. Just kinda hoping they lean more towards a physics based interaction than the alternative.
I am definitely a fan of NPCs ragdolling when they die. It should of course be an option that can be disable for those with less CPU-heavy machines, but I think its a relatively easy way to add a lot realism and can lead to some really hilarious situations when a mob gets blown up by a fireball and is sent flailing through the air.
While the ability to walk through other characters does definitely break immersion, I think character collision causes more problems than it solves. That's one aspect of immersion I personally am willing to sacrifice for the sake of it just being more fun.
Character collision has high troll potential and honestly doesn't add anything meaningful gameplay wise. I don't think immersion is a good enough justification, personally.
We make tons of other concessions away from how things intuitively work in "real life" for the betterment of games. Increasing realism isn't always better.
Another thought, if you have someone standing in a doorway, you push through using enough force to knock them on their bum. It could be an emote /push or just a timer set where if you push on someone long enough, then you are able to get through. Trolling is a huge problem with Character Collision, it would be cool if they were able to find a way to implement character models that feel more real, while giving people the ability to get to their destination. Of course, having a system in place where you can physically move someone has the potential to turn into a tool for trolling others. It really comes down to the community, and how people respond to people who just enjoy griefing others. Good feedback, while I agree that increasing realism isn't always better, I am a strong believer that some systems that were in older MMOs added to the both the gameplay, and feeling that the world you were in was real enough.
Either way, having character models that you can simply run straight through just feels odd.
I like character collision and also what it can bring to combat. We already know there will be some collision mechanics involved in combat with certain abilities. Hopefully this is a thing with players as well. Yes, it has grief potential, but so will many other things in Pantheon or any virtual world.
I noticed collision was off in the stream yesterday, and wondered the plan moving forward. I'm torn on which way I prefer, which I suppose means either way is fine. I was thinking that if collision had been on, the climbing part of the stream would have been a nightmare for the group yesterday. If you go back and watch it, espicially the climbing portion, keep collision in mind. Had it been on it would have caused even more death, or a slower moving group.
I'm in favor of Character Collision, and I was a victem of being locked in a bank by a guy standing in the doorway in EQ so I understandt the trolling possabilitys. I just feel eliminating it compleatly is not the right solution. I like the suggestion of being able to Push the blocker, or knock them on there bum, possably a /playercollision off on a 15 secound timer allowing you to get through. There must be a better solution than just no collision.
No Collision seems the easy way out, not the right way
Zorkon said:I'm in favor of Character Collision, and I was a victem of being locked in a bank by a guy standing in the doorway in EQ so I understandt the trolling possabilitys. I just feel eliminating it compleatly is not the right solution. I like the suggestion of being able to Push the blocker, or knock them on there bum, possably a /playercollision off on a 15 secound timer allowing you to get through. There must be a better solution than just no collision.
No Collision seems the easy way out, not the right way
Why is collision valuable in the first place? I haven't seen that answered yet. Instead, I've only seen proposals on how to add workarounds for bypassing the collision system. The logical choice seems to be to just avoid the system altogether if no reasonable justification can be found to include it.
Liav said:Dullahan said:I like character collision and also what it can bring to combat.
Elaborate please.
Well we know of at least one spell from clerics that will be capable of blocking a doorway temporarily. I also like the idea of being able to place yourself in the way of mobs. I'd like to see collision play a part in combat and for both players and mobs to have to move more often. I'd like to see mobs get push and pull abilities. Such things could be used to prevent exploitation, but with collision it adds the strategy of positioning. I think that could be used in part to prevent combat being limited to standing in a circle bashing a mob.
Prehaps a best of both worlds option might be better, now im not a coder so i don't know how this would work but prehaps a unit colison on mobs but not for players this would mean that you could block mobs or not move past them but allow players to move past each other. mob collision could really add to the game but i think a lack of player collision wouldn't hurt the experiance.
*edit*
yes if you are talking about immerison this idea wont work as it might break people out of it more but i think first and formost having a system that works is better then a bit of immerison loss.
Liav said:Zorkon said:I'm in favor of Character Collision, and I was a victem of being locked in a bank by a guy standing in the doorway in EQ so I understandt the trolling possabilitys. I just feel eliminating it compleatly is not the right solution. I like the suggestion of being able to Push the blocker, or knock them on there bum, possably a /playercollision off on a 15 secound timer allowing you to get through. There must be a better solution than just no collision.
No Collision seems the easy way out, not the right way
Why is collision valuable in the first place? I haven't seen that answered yet. Instead, I've only seen proposals on how to add workarounds for bypassing the collision system. The logical choice seems to be to just avoid the system altogether if no reasonable justification can be found to include it.
Well for me it's the immersion (can't believe I'm using that, as a general rule I HATE that reasoning) But for sure nothing ever seemed right about a large crowd of people and you could just run right through them like they weren't even there. Or to find yourself standing "inside" somebody or somebody inside you.
It's a multi player game... no collision makes it feel like nobody is there.. a multi Ghost game
Liav said:Why is collision valuable in the first place? I haven't seen that answered yet. Instead, I've only seen proposals on how to add workarounds for bypassing the collision system. The logical choice seems to be to just avoid the system altogether if no reasonable justification can be found to include it.
Bingo! And most solutions are open to even more potentially negative implications. Able to push another player? You can push them into danger. Able to remove player collision for a short time? The potential to bypass areas that you should not be able to.
With player collision you end up with situations like The Division faced earlier this year when players couldn't get to a laptop to start their first mission, or users blocked doorways by turning on emotes.
http://www.dorkly.com/post/77516/isnt-preordering-games-fun
But I'm not sure what the argument is for having collision? Realism? Immersion? In that case, standing in line at the post office or DMV has to be pretty darn exhilerating! :)
Now, the argument for player vs. mob collision, makes a lot more sense to me. But is also open to a lot of manipulation. Early on in Destiny, players found a way to push the game's toughest boss off of a platform to kill him.
Hannar said:But I'm not sure what the argument is for having collision? Realism? Immersion? In that case, standing in line at the post office or DMV has to be pretty darn exhilerating!
Okay this made me laugh more then it should, but then again im british and we all know how much we love to queue.
DevonMeep said: I was a big fan of the way collision worked Inn FFXI. You initially hit a mob or PC you stop. But if you keep pushing forward for a couple seconds you push through them. This allowed the game to have collision detection but prevented things like mobs of people at the auction house blocking off the counters.
I think that's a good way of doing it. It would probably be even better if pushing through actually slightly pushed them or at the very least, had an animation involved. That includes for mobs. I think if they want to get at your cleric behind your party, by arranging yourself in front of the cleric, mobs would actually be slowed down by having to push through the players. And before people shout "exploitation", yes it would have to be balanced and it would obviously not apply to all mobs. In general though, I'd really like to see the whole spacial, positioning and collision element become a part of combat.
DevonMeep said: I was a big fan of the way collision worked Inn FFXI. You initially hit a mob or PC you stop. But if you keep pushing forward for a couple seconds you push through them. This allowed the game to have collision detection but prevented things like mobs of people at the auction house blocking off the counters.
Yeah but, why? Why include collision at all if walking forward for 2 seconds is enough to circumvent it?
Looking into ways to circumvent mechanics is putting the cart before the horse. The first question one should ever ask is "why do we have this mechanic in the first place?".
For instance, EQ has had collision for 17 years and it serves no function except for assholes to go AFK after zoning into the Nexus so you literally can't move without shrinking or crouching a bunch.
Dullahan said:I think that's a good way of doing it. It would probably be even better if pushing through actually slightly pushed them or at the very least, had an animation involved. That includes for mobs. I think if they want to get at your cleric behind your party, by arranging yourself in front of the cleric, mobs would actually be slowed down by having to push through the players. And before people shout "exploitation", yes it would have to be balanced and it would obviously not apply to all mobs. In general though, I'd really like to see the whole spacial, positioning and collision element become a part of combat.
Will be fun to push AFK players off of cliffs and pull mobs into other groups so it triggers an animation and causes them to wipe. Such delicious trolling potential.
In terms of positioning, if a Cleric is taking aggro, the tank is bad. If mobs are programmed to have intelligent AI and not standard threat mechanics like EQ, then we're talking about EQN mechanics which speaks for itself.
Once again, another highly exploitable mechanic with extremely limited positive potential, and simultaneously functions as a massive departure from games like EQ which is something I thought we actually wanted.
@Liav
Dullahan does have a point about Clerics getting that pillar spell. So I guess in answer to your question why do we need it? Apparently to block mobs to add more strategy to the gameplay. And maybe thats not possible in all situations but it is apparently intended. Now if you mean specifically why do we need it to occur between players aside from immersion? No reason comes to mind.......................... unless its a PvP server?
Hannar said:But I'm not sure what the argument is for having collision? Realism? Immersion? In that case, standing in line at the post office or DMV has to be pretty darn exhilerating! :)
Heh, I was going to make that analogy when people argue that making something tedious and time-consuming equates to making it challenging.
In seriousness though, there is a case for player collision on PvP servers, but on PvE servers I'm struggling to think of a good reason for having it. Player-mob collision is fine (and necessary) in my view, but player-player collision just seems obnoxious and a recipe for relentless griefing (blocking doorways, entrances to zones, rooms, etc.). But presumably this is something that could be tested and tweaked in alpha/beta. Maybe there are some upsides to it that I haven't even thought about.
The immersion argument to me has just become something of a Godwin's law for MMO discussions. Almost invariably at some point someone will bring it up, and it's impossible to really argue against because it's both a nebulous term, and completely subjective.
Amsai said:@Liav
Dullahan does have a point about Clerics getting that pillar spell. So I guess in answer to your question why do we need it? Apparently to block mobs to add more strategy to the gameplay. And maybe thats not possible in all situations but it is apparently intended. Now if you mean specifically why do we need it to occur between players aside from immersion? No reason comes to mind.......................... unless its a PvP server?
I didn't see anything about a pillar spell, maybe I'm blind. I can see the argument for an added layer of strategy but I don't see how it would fit into a combat system like Pantheon's. It sounds like something I'd expect out of an action combat game like TERA.
Dark Age of Camelot has no character collision and that is widely regarded to be one of the best PvP MMOs of all time.
In Rift if you had a player character on his mount sitting on top of a banker or quest npc, you had shrink wands or morph wands to change them into smaller critters. That way you didn't waste time trying to figure if they were trolling...just morph them, get your business done, and let them figure what they're doing next. :P
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/cleric/
Check out the Iconic Ability at the bottom. I assume this is for mobs only and not players. It could be useful in a pinch to block off adds while the tank deals with a Named?
As far as if it fits Pantheon? I dont see why it wouldnt. I also like being able to come up with different strats based on party class composition. This just gives more choice, even if it is limited to a small hallway. Or perhaps if you have a Shaman instead the Enchanter just mezzes the mess out them, or the Bard multi kites, or the etc etc.
The DAoC reference isnt really a reason to not have it in PvP, just proof that it was okay without it. Which means it could have been even better with it?
I'd say lets see how it plays out in alpha/beta if they have collision in and if it doesnt add some value to combat then it should be out. I will agree that it would just be better to have it be on only for mobs in PvE, and for both players and mobs in PvP. Though the soft collision kinda thing DevonMeep wouldnt really hurt anything either honestly.
In a virtual world that is completely open like Pantheon, the potential for trolling already exists en masse. I don't think having a semi-collision type system like suggested above is really going to change anything further in that respect. It doesn't even have to be so extreme that it has grief potential. Just having basic collision and having to move around or push through mobs and players could be a boon to both combat and immersion factors.
This is a highly cooperative game where player reputation will matter. If they do it right, that kind of behavior will naturally be discouraged. Honestly, arguing on the basis of potential for griefing would mean they would have to overhaul the game entirely and change their plans and tenets drastically going forward.