I think spell ranks are rather boring and therefore don't like them, but I don't care for spellbook clutter either.
After a few moments of pondering, I have concluded that my main issue is not a bajillion spells, but the complete lack of sorting and easy reference. This made me think of unorganized cookbooks and I realized that was a potential solution. Give us a spellbook with...tabs! Custom tabs, at that. Like a cookbook organized into main courses, desserts, drinks, or even meat, veggies, sweets (however people prefer to do it), it would help us skip around to the correct set of spells.
Another issue I've found is all the crazy spell and item icons we tend to get in games. Oh yeah, the art is cool and everything, but when you've got a hundred of them, it's really better for similar categories of spells to have similar icons to allow for quick visual scanning. That is really probably just me, though. I find myself opening a book full of beautiful icons and staring at it for a full ten seconds with a complete lack of comprehension. It's just an overload of visual info for me.
I always preferred spells that were unique, and neither scaled (well maybe for a narrow range of levels, but not to the cap) nor had ranks.
Instead of Firebolt, there might be Zaheem's Pyroclastic Display, Baloer's Engulfing Stream and Mandrev's Kinetic Conflagration.
Always felt more immersive to me.
To more or less quote my thoughts on this from an older thread about spell naming/ranks:
I much prefer unique spell names for each new spell, I thought that was a great world/lore building thing with spellcasters in EQ. Most MMOs I have played/looked at since seem to go very generic with naming and embrace things like Fireball 1,2,3 which is such a bore.
Who knows how it goes in this game world but I always imagined that spells come about like this: Ancient wizard discovers the means to cast a small fire spell, so you have McQuaid's Lick of Flame. After some time of that spell being known in the wizard community a new wizard comes along and after practice/research/mistakes discovers a way to make the spell more potent and dubs the new version Kilsin's Bolt of Fire. More time, you have Joppa's Gift of Immolation. And so on and so forth.
And to quote Joppa (granted this post is almost 3 years old now, so things definitely could be different now):
Joppa said:We will not be going that route.
To me, effective systems of progression (like EQ1 had) boil down to two main components: power and prestige, and they both rely on each other to make progression compelling. Our goal is to make each system of progression, be it general leveling, Rites of Passage, ability/spell/tradeskill acquiring, faction & alignment systems, etc. affect the realms of power and prestige simultaneously.
So in response to this specific idea, firstly, every spell and ability will have a unique name in Pantheon - there will be no Fireball Rank 1-8. However, there will certainly be ways to make spells more potent. Sometimes the environments themselves will do that. Also, to use EQ1's framework, it's possible that simply having a higher Evocation skill may make your Direct Damage spells more powerful, instantly adding power and prestige to a system as simple as skill-ups.
But additionally, we love stuff that is hard to get. So of course we have no problem assigning particularly rare and powerful spells/abilities to Raid encounters, or unbelievably challenging Rites of Passage that exist beyond max level cap-out. But when you take a spell and give it artificial ranks, then hard-wire those ranks to specific spheres of content, you expose the artificiality of that system and crush the potency of the spell line. We're going to do a lot better than this ;)
EQ had discrete spells for many reasons:
- allowed you to decide which variant to memorize, such as to conserve mana or buf/debuf at different levels - inherently adds detail and strategic choices to the spell system
- unique names for spells, even within the same "spell line", gave instance recognition on what to ask for or look for - everyone knew the difference between Breeze, Clarity and KEI
- involves spell systems in the economy, since you had to obtain each discrete spell -they don't just "level up" with you, you have to earn and buy/create/discover/research them
- purchased spells, or components to research a spell, were often intentionally expensive to make you work extra hard to afford them, and often you could only purchase a few of the available items you needed once again adding to the depth of detail and strategy on how you advance yourself
- some spells, even from the same line, are bought at earlier levels, but then become research-only for special cases (or they could be, since they are all separate spells)
- some spell lines, like AE lines, might be research-only and must be created by someone vs. "normal" lines which can be bought or drop frequently - this became its own mini-game on how/where to obtain certain spells, and whether it was worth the time/effort/cost to do so
- discrete spells allows for level plateaus where a spell is most effective until it is upgraded - that doesn't mean you can't have a single spell automatically increase its effects each time you level while still using it, but it does tend to introduce some sort of upgrade "jump" when you actually get a new one, and it is a carrot people looked forward to
I can't tell you how many times playing EQ, at all levels, someone in my group or guild would exclaim things like "one bubble until KEI!" or "I can full rez in 2 levels!". That stepwise advancement in the spell system is itself a big incentive and motivator for a true MMO like this. Why would they want to throw that away? Like AAs, these are goals themselves in growing your character.
@Redgiant
I really liked what you said here.
EQ had discrete spells for many reasons:
- allowed you to decide which variant to memorize, such as to conserve mana or buf/debuf at different levels - inherently adds detail and strategic choices to the spell system
- unique names for spells, even within the same "spell line", gave instance recognition on what to ask for or look for - everyone knew the difference between Breeze, Clarity and KEI
I remember knowing each and every version of each line of spell I had, which to use on which mobs and with each group comp that could change also. (No Chanter, no Clarity, no Clarity, no using the newest DoT or Snare because it just sucked you dry too fast! So, you had to watch and learn which were actually better for each given situation.)
- involves spell systems in the economy, since you had to obtain each discrete spell -they don't just "level up" with you, you have to earn and buy/create/discover/research them
- some spells, even from the same line, are bought at earlier levels, but then become research-only for special cases (or they could be, since they are all separate spells)
- some spell lines, like AE lines, might be research-only and must be created by someone vs. "normal" lines which can be bought or drop frequently - this became its own mini-game on how/where to obtain certain spells, and whether it was worth the time/effort/cost to do so
- discrete spells allows for level plateaus where a spell is most effective until it is upgraded - that doesn't mean you can't have a single spell automatically increase its effects each time you level while still using it, but it does tend to introduce some sort of upgrade "jump" when you actually get a new one, and it is a carrot people looked forward to
I can't tell you how many times playing EQ, at all levels, someone in my group or guild would exclaim things like "one bubble until KEI!" or "I can full rez in 2 levels!". That stepwise advancement in the spell system is itself a big incentive and motivator for a true MMO like this. Why would they want to throw that away? Like AAs, these are goals themselves in growing your character.
I love this stuff!
Suterian said:@Redgiant
I really liked what you said here.
EQ had discrete spells for many reasons:
- allowed you to decide which variant to memorize, such as to conserve mana or buf/debuf at different levels - inherently adds detail and strategic choices to the spell system
- unique names for spells, even within the same "spell line", gave instance recognition on what to ask for or look for - everyone knew the difference between Breeze, Clarity and KEI
I remember knowing each and every version of each line of spell I had, which to use on which mobs and with each group comp that could change also. (No Chanter, no Clarity, no Clarity, no using the newest DoT or Snare because it just sucked you dry too fast! So, you had to watch and learn which were actually better for each given situation.)
- involves spell systems in the economy, since you had to obtain each discrete spell -they don't just "level up" with you, you have to earn and buy/create/discover/research them
- some spells, even from the same line, are bought at earlier levels, but then become research-only for special cases (or they could be, since they are all separate spells)
- some spell lines, like AE lines, might be research-only and must be created by someone vs. "normal" lines which can be bought or drop frequently - this became its own mini-game on how/where to obtain certain spells, and whether it was worth the time/effort/cost to do so
- discrete spells allows for level plateaus where a spell is most effective until it is upgraded - that doesn't mean you can't have a single spell automatically increase its effects each time you level while still using it, but it does tend to introduce some sort of upgrade "jump" when you actually get a new one, and it is a carrot people looked forward to
I can't tell you how many times playing EQ, at all levels, someone in my group or guild would exclaim things like "one bubble until KEI!" or "I can full rez in 2 levels!". That stepwise advancement in the spell system is itself a big incentive and motivator for a true MMO like this. Why would they want to throw that away? Like AAs, these are goals themselves in growing your character.
- Man, I LOVED knowing that within the next level or two I would get a drastically more powerful upgrade spell than I had been using ( lol@drastic 8%haste to 12% haste, 7mana per tick ro 10 mana per tick) Which, actually made a difference back then, because you did NOT upgrade gear every 32 minutes and thankfully, the majority of spell lines stacked buff wise. So adding 7-12AC to your tank from 3 different sources actually made a difference.
I love this stuff!
Yes, great posts both of you. Those are some of the things that helped define the magic of EQ. +
Looking around for a thread talking about spell ranks - and I noticed this one asking for the elimination of rankings - so I thought I would chime in and vocalize my support for keeping lower rank spells accessible and relevant.
As a healer in previous games, I found the spell-rank spectrum to be a great way to tune my play style. Having more than 'big heal' and 'little heal' to chose from was a great way to make myself stand out as a more efficient and long-winded healer, reducing over-healing amounts and minimizing time of arrival of heals. It gives the player behind the keyboard one more way to stand out from the rest and to be skillful in their spell choice.
Coupled with the idea of limited abilities being available on the action bar would lead to formulating raid compositions where different healers are given different roles, and so can set up their spellbar accordingly. "Bursty tank healer" or "efficient raid healer" etc etc...