Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Spells, Ranks, and Garbage Cans

    • 2130 posts
    December 12, 2016 3:18 AM PST

    It shouldn't affect making a DPS spreadsheet. You just include all ranks of the given spell and put them in the appropriate order. They can be accounted for just like any other spell. Most apps to a guild aren't going to have Rank 3's anyway because they're raid drops, and every guild has plenty of apps. I don't think they allow it to haunt them, that's just how progression works.

    I agree with the sentiment but letting it affect you that badly seems extreme. Unless you got 100% best in slot gear from the previous expansion, you're probably missing DPS anyway. Getting hung up on something that trivial is bizarre to me.

    However, I will say that EQ is very inconsistent with spell upgrades from expansion to expansion, even as a Monk, so that is completely valid. If a spell isn't getting a direct upgrade in the next expansion, then previous versions of it should be more easy to access. Being able to craft Rank 3's of a previous expansion's spells would be valid, imo.

    • 40 posts
    December 12, 2016 3:31 AM PST

    I realize that it doesn't affect making a spreadsheet.  You just have to use the numbers on the spell.  I was just stating that to help out other players, it's easier if we all have the same ranks and then we all have the same spreadsheet.  Having rank 1 or 3, etc can change the ordere that a spell would be cast in.  As a necro class leader in one of the top guilds in EQ, I did more spreadsheets than I care to remember.  Doing one for every new arrival.

     

    It may be bizzare to you but whatever I play, I play the best.  I wasn't one of the top 3 necros in EQ1 for gear and dps for no reason.  You can get gear from the new expac.  Heck, in EQ, the group gear of the new expac was often almost as good as the raid gear from the previous expac (at the end at least when you had tier 4 gorup gear and such).

    THey made rank 3's researchable but only 2-3 expansions from the current expansion were researchable.  At that point, it was pretty pointless.

     

    I can recognize how this may not matter to a lot of people but when you're in a top raid guild and trying to do your best for yourself and for your guildies who count on you as well, a but of dps lost here, a but there...it adds up.  I can fully understand why it's not important to you.  It is to me. 

    • 2130 posts
    December 12, 2016 4:08 AM PST

    I've raided at the bleeding edge of various games for many years. I understand where you're coming from. I just don't think that including the rank of the spell in a spreadsheet is that big of a deal. If the person reading it doesn't understand it, that's on them.

    They can do away with spell ranks, I really don't care either way. It won't impact me in the slightest.

    • 578 posts
    December 12, 2016 12:04 PM PST

    Liav said:

    They can do away with spell ranks, I really don't care either way. It won't impact me in the slightest.

    This right here. I could care less either way, it's not going to upset me and ruin my game experience if there are spell ranks.

    But it's just an antiquated system that is sloppy for modern gaming. There is no need for it. The concerns people have are easily remedied in various ways to the point there really should be no concern at all. Using low level spells to pull with in order to remain low on the aggro list is easily solved. Some are acting like this can't be done without fireball having 8 ranks and you use the rank 1 version when you're level 50. At level 10 give pulling classes a 'rock' spell that you throw at a mob to get its attention and chase after you, problem solved. The level 10 rock spell never ranks up and stays a low threat pulling ability and you use it for the rest of your life. And just because you are not getting 7 ranks of each spell does not mean you are not going to have spells to look forward to every level or 3 or 4. This pushes the devs to get creative with new/more/exciting spells. And with the codex you can alter and augment older spells every level or two to create new spells.


    This post was edited by NoobieDoo at December 12, 2016 12:06 PM PST
    • 40 posts
    December 12, 2016 11:40 PM PST

    NoobieDoo said:

    Liav said:

    They can do away with spell ranks, I really don't care either way. It won't impact me in the slightest.

    This right here. I could care less either way, it's not going to upset me and ruin my game experience if there are spell ranks.

    But it's just an antiquated system that is sloppy for modern gaming. There is no need for it. The concerns people have are easily remedied in various ways to the point there really should be no concern at all. Using low level spells to pull with in order to remain low on the aggro list is easily solved. Some are acting like this can't be done without fireball having 8 ranks and you use the rank 1 version when you're level 50. At level 10 give pulling classes a 'rock' spell that you throw at a mob to get its attention and chase after you, problem solved. The level 10 rock spell never ranks up and stays a low threat pulling ability and you use it for the rest of your life. And just because you are not getting 7 ranks of each spell does not mean you are not going to have spells to look forward to every level or 3 or 4. This pushes the devs to get creative with new/more/exciting spells. And with the codex you can alter and augment older spells every level or two to create new spells.

     

    I'm not worried about pulling.  They know that pulling needs to be done and will give classes what they need.  It's not Matt's first time around...  I just hate rank 3's from raids.  They can cause issues for raids (everybody and their mom thinks their spells are the most important).  Apps will get important spells over long time members getting nont so important spells that they still want rank 3.  Top guild class leaders are often told not to accept a nec without rank 3's for X spells.  I think it just creates issues and drama.  I'm all for rank 1 starter and rank 2 from something you can get from group/dungeons/missions/farming.  Then everyone can get them and there will be no fighting.  Then someone can join the game a year after it started and be able to get all their spells.  From rank 2 to 3 in EQ, there wasn't a HUGE difference but there was a small difference which was enough to create drama.  If you didn't see any drama over it, youa are lucky because I was in a few guilds and I saw it in all of them.  It was worse in mid-tier guilds or if you prefer, the guilds that raid but only see the first content and will see the end content of that expac once the new expac comes out.  The reason for that is simple: They would see the lower spells drop and their members could get them and every so often, a mid level spell would drop from a lower tiered raid so it became an ''I NEED'' battle of tells to officers or class leaders.  I got more than one ''I need this, I'm an old time member, you know why I need this and I've been patient and will move on if I don't'' as an officer or class leader over the years.  The sad thing is that we sadly often respond with a ''positive reinforcement'' if the member is good at their class and if it's a tougher class to get good players for.   I lol'd the first time that I got a tell like that because I figured they were joking with me.  It was a good humored member.  I saw them detag 10 seconds after and was shocked.

    Then there's the people who don't want to spend dkp on spells and rather get armor when their spells are important like clarity 3 or temperance 3 (type spells).  If you're lucky and have more than a few clerics, you will take your rank 3 clerics first to a raid, especially if it's progression.  The others quickly rage.

     

    I loved loot in EQ1.  I loved raiding.  I loved progression and dying 100000x.  I do not love the drama and trust me, if we're honest with each other, it's not ''just some people'' when it comes to loot or certain loot.  It's more than often a lot of people.  This is why I'm not pro rank 3's or higher rank spells from raids and I'm not pro mounts dropping at raids either.  ''Let's go do FOB1 again because X person wants a mount''.... Hrrm, we already have 10 000 mounts available, some are now faster and we have progression to do.  YA YA BUT AFTER THE PROGRESSION!!! Ya, when everyone goes to bed and someone rages because they didn't get a stupid mount lol  I never got that mount and I couldn't have cared less.  Still, it created drama over a fricken mount model.

     

    TL:dR, Certain things like higher rank spells at raids and raid mounts create unnecessary drama that I wish to see avoided.

    • 2130 posts
    December 13, 2016 2:42 AM PST

    Honestly, your concerns have little to do with spell ranks and more to do with spells dropping from raids in general.

    How do you deal with things like Ancient: Gift of Aegolism? What happens when you have 10 Clerics in your raid and can't decide who it goes to?

    If your Clerics throw a fit and ragequit the guild, then there's no help for them anyway. This is a loot distribution issue, not an issue inherent in the concept of spell ranks. If a guild's officers refuse to recruit people withour Rank 3 spells, then they're also idiots and I can guarantee they're not a "top guild".

    I've been an app to top (worldwide progression) guilds in at least 3-4 different games. Without fail, I have been accepted as an applicant without having raid drops as a prerequisite. Why? Because requiring raid drops as a prerequisite is nonsensical.

    1) Having raid drops has zero correlation with the quality of a player. eBayed characters have rank 3's.

    2) You limit your recruiting pool to only players who have abandoned other raid guilds to app to yours.

    3) Having bleeding edge gear as an app is not and has not ever been necessary for the success of a guild, ever, in the entire history of MMO gaming.

    These sound like recruiting rules set forth by a mid-tier guild with many misconceptions about where success comes from.

    • 40 posts
    December 13, 2016 6:30 AM PST

    You stated that this was a non-issue for you.  That you didn't care.  So why are my issues so important for you to try to belittle them every time that I post?

     

    My issue IS with raid spell drops.  I have said it more than once. I think that they are a bad idea and I've explained why.

     

    Top guilds recruit differently.  What is looked at is talent/references/parses, gear/foci/aa's/time put into your char really, spells, abilities, etc.

     

    They are not a deal breaker but they can change a situation.  It is talked about in recruitment.

     

    Considering that it may/likely will be possible to regress and become your proginy, getting to old raids to obtain tier 3 spells may be a PITA if people are way over that raid.  You can try to get friends together, etc but it doesn't work out for everyone.  So yes, I'm against raid spells.  I don't like the idea of ranks if a rank includes getting them in a raid.


    This post was edited by patrick83 at December 13, 2016 6:43 AM PST
    • 556 posts
    December 13, 2016 6:36 AM PST

    Those were rules for select guilds because they had the numbers to do so. If you place that requirement on apps you cut potential apps by probably somewhere around 60-70%. For a high end established guild, it may not affect them as much as they are only looking to fill minimal slots with the best of the best type players. For most guilds however, it would be the death of them. Asking for equivialant gear levels for the content they are doing is perfectly ok. Asking for full raid drop spells, not so much.

    • 2130 posts
    December 13, 2016 6:43 AM PST

    I'm not sure why you're apologizing. Giving preference to a geared applicants and denying applicants outright are a little different. Even so, every guild has their minimum standards.

    So you're not necessarily objected to spell ranks, you're just objected to spells from raids in general. That clears things up a bit. It's a concern for me because I couldn't figure out which it was.

    • 40 posts
    December 13, 2016 7:00 AM PST

    Enitzu said:

    Those were rules for select guilds because they had the numbers to do so. If you place that requirement on apps you cut potential apps by probably somewhere around 60-70%. For a high end established guild, it may not affect them as much as they are only looking to fill minimal slots with the best of the best type players. For most guilds however, it would be the death of them. Asking for equivialant gear levels for the content they are doing is perfectly ok. Asking for full raid drop spells, not so much.

     

    Of course.  This can also be an issue with ''special'' spells however.  Let's think of KEI from EQ for example.  It was obtained at a raid.  I forget what expac is was?  GoD?  Maybe a bit before?  So you regress.  You start an enchanter.  People are in PoP type of content at that point and KEI is still the best mind buff.  It's not craftable yet and still only obtainable at a raid.  So you have to pretty much beg your guild to go raid that place for you and hope it drops...

    This is the type of thing that I'm against.  It was not fun and was frustrating.  That's why I really don't want raid only spells or better spells only obtainable by raid ...  Gear, yes.  You need a reason to raid other than the fun of it because farming X mob for the 100th time in between expacs isn't ''fun''.  Even if you didn't raid and go into next expansion, you can get better raid gear (if you decide to start raiding then) and it won't matter.  Even if you don't, the top group gear is usually close to the last expac's gear.  If it wasn't, players wouldn't be able to group the group pve content.  So gear is usually a non-issue but spells can be.

    • 2130 posts
    December 13, 2016 7:23 AM PST

    To be fair, KEI is a Luclin raid drop that became craftable during PoP era iirc.

    I kind of like the idea of raid spells still, as long as they are an upgrade in power and not in function. For instance, Gift of Pure Thought is the previous version of KEI. If I'm not mistaken, it's 2 points of mana regen less than KEI, however it lacks the mana pool and int/wis buff. So, an increase in power but not completely in function.

    • 556 posts
    December 13, 2016 7:30 AM PST

    patrick83 said: Let's think of KEI from EQ for example.  It was obtained at a raid.  I forget what expac is was?  GoD?  Maybe a bit before?  So you regress.  You start an enchanter.  People are in PoP type of content at that point and KEI is still the best mind buff.  It's not craftable yet and still only obtainable at a raid.  So you have to pretty much beg your guild to go raid that place for you and hope it drops...

    I both agree and disagree with your post. The quoted portion I will hit on first though as this is a bad example. You are talking from a PoP timeframe and a spell from Velious raids. That could have been done with a single decently geared group. It might take awhile due to the mob hp but it was doable for the most part. The problem really comes into play when it's an iconic spell like this that is put into a raid that either you don't have the guild to actually do the raid or other guilds simply lock it down. 

    I want to agree that spells shouldn't really come from raids but at the same time those spells are sometimes the only thing that can really make you stand out among the thousands of others. There should be some rare spells and such that do come from raids as it's adds the rarity to the game. These are some of the things that kept me in EQ for so long. There was always something to do in order to better your character. I think they just need to keep the more iconic abilities that everyone of that class should have as a baseline ability. Let the raid drops be colored mana variations that allow you to alter your char slightly rather than just straight power increases. Priority spells and keys that come from raids are usually the places where guilds will block each other. Any way that can limit that behavior just makes for a better community and less hostility (unless you're on a pvp server then to hell with that everything is FFA).

    • 556 posts
    December 13, 2016 7:34 AM PST

    Liav said:

    To be fair, KEI is a Luclin raid drop that became craftable during PoP era iirc.

    I kind of like the idea of raid spells still, as long as they are an upgrade in power and not in function. For instance, Gift of Pure Thought is the previous version of KEI. If I'm not mistaken, it's 2 points of mana regen less than KEI, however it lacks the mana pool and int/wis buff. So, an increase in power but not completely in function.

    Was it Luclin? My bad, been awhile

    • 40 posts
    December 13, 2016 9:08 PM PST

    Liav said:

    To be fair, KEI is a Luclin raid drop that became craftable during PoP era iirc.

    I kind of like the idea of raid spells still, as long as they are an upgrade in power and not in function. For instance, Gift of Pure Thought is the previous version of KEI. If I'm not mistaken, it's 2 points of mana regen less than KEI, however it lacks the mana pool and int/wis buff. So, an increase in power but not completely in function.

     

    It was also not as long lasting and I'm pretty sure that it became available in DoN, once C4 came out.  It may not bother you but as someone who played an enchanter as my first alt or main alt, I can tell you that most of us were bothered if we didn't have it.  Later on, it did become a non-issue as it was craftable.  Once spells become craftable in EQ, they were usually pretty irrelevant.  I did cast KEI often in the lobby for lower level players who wanted something longer lasting than C4 and for the rest, I was casting C10 at the end, when I quit?  Or C11 I forget.

    You don't care.  So please stop with your ''it's not important''.  We gathered that it's not important to you.  It's not the Liav show, however.  Other people have opinions and we're entitled to them.

    • 40 posts
    December 13, 2016 9:24 PM PST

    Enitzu said:

    patrick83 said: Let's think of KEI from EQ for example.  It was obtained at a raid.  I forget what expac is was?  GoD?  Maybe a bit before?  So you regress.  You start an enchanter.  People are in PoP type of content at that point and KEI is still the best mind buff.  It's not craftable yet and still only obtainable at a raid.  So you have to pretty much beg your guild to go raid that place for you and hope it drops...

    I both agree and disagree with your post. The quoted portion I will hit on first though as this is a bad example. You are talking from a PoP timeframe and a spell from Velious raids. That could have been done with a single decently geared group. It might take awhile due to the mob hp but it was doable for the most part. The problem really comes into play when it's an iconic spell like this that is put into a raid that either you don't have the guild to actually do the raid or other guilds simply lock it down. 

    I want to agree that spells shouldn't really come from raids but at the same time those spells are sometimes the only thing that can really make you stand out among the thousands of others. There should be some rare spells and such that do come from raids as it's adds the rarity to the game. These are some of the things that kept me in EQ for so long. There was always something to do in order to better your character. I think they just need to keep the more iconic abilities that everyone of that class should have as a baseline ability. Let the raid drops be colored mana variations that allow you to alter your char slightly rather than just straight power increases. Priority spells and keys that come from raids are usually the places where guilds will block each other. Any way that can limit that behavior just makes for a better community and less hostility (unless you're on a pvp server then to hell with that everything is FFA).

     

    I forget where it was from exactly.  I think it may have been Luclin.  I remember emp SSRA dropping it I think...but it's been a long time.

     

    If spells are avail from raids, there should be an option to get older spells with the current gems.  I would just not put spells in raid but not being able to get a spell that could be useful because it can't be crafted yet, would still be useful and that you cannot get unless you get a full raid to go get it still...well it's a PITA.  Making them craftable the expansion after is an acceptable solution too.  You had some bonus with more damage during the expac and people who don't raid as much or who couldn't down the higher tiered raids can get those spells and the raider will once again be getting new rank 3 spells that the non-raider or that the mid-tear raider may not get.  So there's the perk and it's not game breaking or annoying as hell forever if you don't have it.  There were mobs in EQ1 where I could only land older spells as a necro.  It was intended that way to limit dots.  I remember going back to go get rank 3's that were non-craftable even expacs later so I could be the most use for my guild.

     

    I am a hardcore raider but I am also sick.  I'm OK with my pills 99% of the time now but with the stomach issues that I have which can mean 6 months in the ER- tube fed, etc...You are happy to be back home when you can make it home but it's enough to drive you crazy to know that you missed so much content, are behind and that even working so many hours a day, you will be able to catch up only on some things unless people agree to go do a raid with you, etc.  It hasn't happened to me in years (being hospitalized) thankfully but I know that I'm not alone in my case. There are a lot of army people who play these games. A lot of people who are sick/living with disabilities.  A lot of people who can sometimes miss days even if they really do not want to but have no choice.  We are all OK with putting in the work to catch up once we get back at it.  We usually have friends to help by that point, etc.  People can be amazing in MMO's and I've made some friendships in EQ that will last for life.  People that just went out of their way to ensure that I was caught up ASAP after a hospital stint...who didn't make me feel bad about it and who put hteir own stuff aside to help me get caught up.  Still, when there are things that require a raid, you try to put a raid together ...a raid of old content.  A few people are excited because they missed a flag or an aug or a spell but most are thinking ''meh''.  It's possible for the members who are the best players usually if they plead on the forums and remind people that it will help their dps.  Others are not so lucky...

    • 40 posts
    December 13, 2016 9:36 PM PST

    PS: Just for the chronology, I just checked.  KEI came out in Luclin.  Researchable with LoY expansion.  Keeping in mind that the baz price was really high at first.  VoQ (C4) came out in PoP.

     

    Had to check the time frame: Was driving me crazy.

     

    One thing to apply to all of this as well is KeI duration compared to what came before and what came after.  At raids, people would get C4 but people looking out to adventure usually wanted KEI since VoQ wasn't all that much of an upgrade and KEI lasted much longer.

     

    I think that this shows the importance of older spells.  These were the ''elite spells'' so to say but they are pretty comparable to a raid rank 3.  They came from raids.  More than one raid usually but it had a chance to drop it.  You could raid eveything in Luclin and not see it.

    • 2130 posts
    December 14, 2016 4:57 AM PST

    If you're going to interpret my disagreeing with you as me saying "it's not important" (which you won't find me saying in any of my posts), then have fun talking to yourself.

    That said, I still don't see an issue with raid spells as long as a reasonable progression is included in the game. Realistically, whatever happened in EQ doesn't really apply to Pantheon. There are massive amounts of intentional and unintentional ambiguities in that game.

    The inclusion of raid-dropped spells in Pantheon doesn't necessarily mean that it has to work the way it did in EQ where there isn't a clear progression path. Lots of design decisions in EQ were pants-on-head anyway.

    That said, this is the last of my contribution to this thread.

    • 40 posts
    December 14, 2016 6:28 PM PST

    Liav said:

    If you're going to interpret my disagreeing with you as me saying "it's not important" (which you won't find me saying in any of my posts), then have fun talking to yourself.

    That said, I still don't see an issue with raid spells as long as a reasonable progression is included in the game. Realistically, whatever happened in EQ doesn't really apply to Pantheon. There are massive amounts of intentional and unintentional ambiguities in that game.

    The inclusion of raid-dropped spells in Pantheon doesn't necessarily mean that it has to work the way it did in EQ where there isn't a clear progression path. Lots of design decisions in EQ were pants-on-head anyway.

    That said, this is the last of my contribution to this thread.

     

    I'm all for people disagreeing with me.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions.  However, you stated that you didn't care about this-that it wasn't important to you and you just have to answer every single one of my posts.  It makes no sense.  Either you care or you don't.  If you don't care and it really doesn't matter to you but you keep coming with rebutals to everything that I say, then you either care and you lied or you're doing it to antagonize me.  So either way, I will not accept you playing victim or ''wishing me a fun tme talking to myself''.  I'm very social but I also have a PH.d in psychology.  I do not take head games from patients just like I won't take them from someone online.  I'm not going to waste my time debating with you and I expect that we both come here because we are excited about a game.  So frankly, I'm here to have fun, to discuss and that includes people having different opinions.  I adapt my opinions as it goes because people can tell me things that I did not know and I'm always flexible in my positions.  I will discuss a topic at lenght if it matters to me.  If it doesn't matter to me, I won't keep interjecting just for the sake of interjecting.

    • 2130 posts
    December 15, 2016 4:39 AM PST

    I specifically said that I don't care about spell ranks. I never stated my position on spells dropping from raids. On the topic of things I don't care about, Ph.d's probably qualify.

    That said, I'm not antagonizing you. I would recommend not posting on the forums if you don't want people to actively reply to you. In addition, I can simultaneously "not care" about spells having ranks, and "care" about spells dropping from raids.

    In short, I do care about half of this topic, just not the whole topic.

    Let's stop derailing. The OP talked about spells ranks, I don't care about that. You brought up raid spells. I like the idea of raid spells. Let's talk about raid spells, or make a new thread for it.


    This post was edited by Liav at December 15, 2016 4:39 AM PST
    • 3852 posts
    December 15, 2016 1:57 PM PST

    I like the idea of having one spell to do one thing not multiple ranks. Fireball not fireball1, fireball2, fireball3.

    Fireball not fireball, enhanced fireball, majestic fireball, Luclin's fireball of the demons, Antonia's fireball of the divine etc.

    Have the power go up with levels (not necessarily every level) and have the cost go up. A level 3 can use it to do damage equal to e.g. 25% of a typical level 3 mob's health while costing e.g. 25% of his or her power. A level 50 can do the same, only the numbers have scaled up not the percentages.

    If we need a cheap pull spell give one.

    A smaller number of spells that scale to level will keep hotbars less crowded and easy to use. It will facilitate mentoring characters up or down so they can group with friends or guildmates. When you go from 40 to 17 the fireball spell on your hotbar is changed to ...fireball. Makes life a whole lot easier.

    This post is intended to be limited to spell ranks. I disclaim any interest, direct or indirect, express or implied, in spells dropping from raids. Nothing in this post is intended as a criticism or or attack on any person, living or dead. Of course it is fully intended to disagree with anyone that doesn't feel exactly the same way I do but that isn't at all the same thing!


    This post was edited by dorotea at December 15, 2016 1:58 PM PST
    • 26 posts
    December 26, 2017 10:57 AM PST

    patrick83 said:

    I'm very social but I also have a PH.d in psychology.

    Not for nothing, but this had me crying laughing today. Thank you for this. As a doctorite in psychology, you should be familiar with the post-cognetive circulus in probando trait. Though, as I read through this topic, I see you employing this trait in many of your rebutals. To be on fair ground, I do not have a Ph.D in psychology. Though the relevance when arguing on the internet using a Ph.D as a component of social validation (- something else you should be familar with,) is about as logical as me using my education to argue about the particle quanity, properties and behaviors in spell animations. Not sure if the definition of arguing changes at the Ph.D level, but any disputation of concept is that is conveyed via any medium by definition, is arguing. I truly do hope you are exceeding sucessful at your profession but for me, if I am in need of analyitical assistance - please forgive me if I take my counciling elsewhere.

    As to the topic at hand, I do not mind if rank spells drop in raids. If there are people who want to whine and complain about what they didn't get in the raid, I have been fortunate enough to not have been raiding with them. On a different perspective, the difference in ranks is only of concern to those who take to hyper-focusing on numbers. Hopefully VR will not cater to the shouting of players over 2% more damage due to a ranked spell as this often leads into class over-balancing inevitably.

     

    • 97 posts
    December 26, 2017 11:10 AM PST

    *casts spell Ressurect thread, rank 3*

    As a Paladin in EQ I would have all my different stuns loaded up for aggro and positioning purposes. The lowever level stuns were great as fast casting, low mana cost aggro machines as well as for pulling (players who grouped with me quickly learned they could dubuff and slow a mob on inc and I would still maintain aggro as it entered the camp), while the later stun spells that contained a push element were used to slightly reposition mobs as needed.

    • 1714 posts
    December 27, 2017 9:04 AM PST

    NoobieDoo said:

    PLEASE devs throw away the age old system of spell ranks. It's old and antiquated and old. Did I mention old?

    I love games like Diablo 3 where you get a spell like firebolt and NEVER get firebolt 1, firebolt 2, firebolt 3, etc. Why have us gain all these spells just so that we can hit level 50 and sift through our 37 pages of spells where each spell takes up an entire page itself because it has 10 versions yet we don't use the first 9 because they are simply weaker versions.

    I like the codex idea and think this type of system would fit perfectly with it. Instead of getting heal 1, heal 2, heal 3, heal 4, we get...heal. It's an instant cast heal that heals for a little amount of health and costs relatively low mana. Then, instead of leveling up and having to buy/train heal 2 and 8 levels later heal 3, just have the spell's power increase on its own as we level up. Then with the codex, however it's going to work, we can alter that heal spell to make it behave in various ways. Maybe change it from instant heal to a slow cast big heal.

    But however the system works let's do away with Divine Blessing 1-9. Let's just have Divine Blessing and move on. Either it increases in power on its own as we increase in level or we can alter with the codex. This will allow us to keep a neat and clean spell book. It will save us from obtaining spells that we outlevel and no longer use. And it will also create a system where we have use for ALL of our spells, even our lower level ones.

    This idea birthed from another discussion but there was a lot more being discussed in there which made the topic(s) very broad and I like to discuss things in a very specific manner. I believe it's easier on the devs when we discuss one thing at a time so that they can easily refer to the topic and get everyone's feedback on that specific topic and not have to sift though multiple other ideas. So what say you? Do you prefer a much cleaner spell system without all the ranks and clutter or do you like to buy that new version every so many levels?

    I think there's a balance to be struck. On one hand, I completely agree that Fireball 1 vs Fireball 2 is silly for several reasons. However, getting an ice bolt at level 14 and a fire bolt at 19 and a magic bolt at 24, all at different damage levels, makes sense to me. There's an ebb and flow to a spell casters power level depending on the content they are facing and what rank of spell they currently have. I think that's fun. Your ice/fire/magic spells, even of the same type, shouldn't always be doing the same damage(or should they? I'd have to think/learn more).

    Also, having lower cost spells you can use to train a less frequently used spell school is useful. 

     

    The balance would be to not have a spell book with 30 pages of spells you never use. 

    • 1714 posts
    December 27, 2017 9:04 AM PST

    Quintra said:

    *casts spell Ressurect thread, rank 3*

    As a Paladin in EQ I would have all my different stuns loaded up for aggro and positioning purposes. The lowever level stuns were great as fast casting, low mana cost aggro machines as well as for pulling (players who grouped with me quickly learned they could dubuff and slow a mob on inc and I would still maintain aggro as it entered the camp), while the later stun spells that contained a push element were used to slightly reposition mobs as needed.

    Great example. 

    • 1095 posts
    December 27, 2017 9:16 AM PST

    I didn't much care for how EQ2 did spell ranks so I could do without but we could add in a different mechanic to casting spells. In EQ each spell had a skill for each set of spell type. What if that was throw out and each spell was a skill in of itself. Just because someone can call down a fireball easily, they might struggle with calling forward ice. Each spell could reflect the usage or skill in casting it. The higher the skill the more damage, less mana consumtion and less interruption so channelling skill out the window with that as well. More advanaced 'versions' could be teachings on how to master a spell, which would raise the skill level cap basically. Could allow for these raids drops or other rare spell drops but still offer the same for players who don't want to go after those higher teachings so to say.

    Interclass specialties would be the result as we could have Fire Wizards, Ice Wizards, Whatever Wizards and even Omni Wizards who eventually mastered all the spells.

    In addition if everything was setup as a skill then building out future classes and even having cross-class skills be easier to implement. As long as you can draw the corrrect color of mana required, at that point its just a skill that can be learned. No reason a wizard can't kick something but they should be very bad at it and have max cap of like 10 or something lol. I mean snakes can kick.

    This could possibile make things more intresting and having to actually use certain spells(skills) to be good at them. it also could be to complex and tedious having to level up each skill.

     


    This post was edited by Aich at December 27, 2017 9:27 AM PST