Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Looting rules

    • 1434 posts
    January 28, 2017 10:47 AM PST

    Almost all naggy and vox were tradeable. Items from Inny and CT were also tradeable. Basically any area that had a level prereq to enter or required a key was mostly nodrop, but there were dozens of extremely valueable items in early EQ that were tradeable. It was never an issue.

    • 2130 posts
    January 28, 2017 11:05 AM PST

    I'm aware, however, I say this a lot but I really think it's naive to believe that tradeable raid loot can exist in a modern game without issues that may not have existed in EQ at the time.

    That said, we're drifting way off topic.


    This post was edited by Liav at January 28, 2017 11:05 AM PST
    • 2752 posts
    May 25, 2017 5:47 PM PDT

    Moved from: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6253/dual-specialization/view/page/11

    oneADseven said:

    A wizard wanting to roll on a rare plate chest piece that would be an upgrade for the tank? ... /puke  Never in all my years of gaming has that been considered anything but pure greed.  One could argue that virtually any item that has a monetary value could be "used" by every class because it could deepen their pockets.  I'll pass on that.  I would never roll on caster gear or spells if they are an upgrade to someone in my group, nor would I allow someone in my group who played like that.  This is supposed to be a group-centric game ... where accomplishments are "shared" ... and for people who like "cooperative play."  If that's how things used to be in EQ, I'm really glad the MMO community has evolved to the point where if something drops and it's an upgrade for someone in the group, it's expected that they get priority on it.  I wouldn't have it any other way.

     

    It would have been a colossal waste of my time in EQ if I went by that. Why would casters ever waste their time camping the frenzy or ghoul lord spawns in Lower Guk when they have pretty much zero chance of getting an FBSS or Ykesha? Or camping the spore king when you'd have next to no chance to get a Fungi Tunic? Unless every named camp in this game has drops for each class then you are wasting your time camping things that don't get you loot and advance your character, especially at max level. (This only applies to pick up groups, if you play with friends/guild members then by all means do need before greed)

     

    It's not like most items are going to be bind on pickup/equip. If the mob the group is camping doesn't drop caster stuff and I am a caster then why can't I "need" roll on the item as I please? I'm investing just as much time and effort with everyone else in the group so why shouldn't I have a shot at the rewards? If I win and can sell the item and buy something I can actually use. It isn't that the warrior NEEDS the breastplate, he WANTS it. 

     

    It's all just want. You want the piece of armor to use, which can always be sold later for profit. I want the piece of armor to sell now to get something else. You need the piece of armor because it is an upgrade for a while then you can sell it later. I need the piece of armor to sell now to buy something I can actually use. If it is a trade-able item then anyone in the group can use it even if they cannot equip it. It isn't greedy or "me me me."

     

    greednoun: intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.

    self·ishadjective: (of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

     

    Which sounds more greedy/selfish? "I can equip that armor so it should be mine" or "Let's all have a roll and see who wins."

     

    If you want to pass for someone else then you are selfless, if you think you are entitled to an item because you can equip it then you are selfish. If everyone gets a roll then at worst things are fair.

     

    jpedrote said:

    @Iksar

    Never played the game like that, allways been need before greed in WoW, and if you didn't follow the NbG rule in random groups you're considered a proper dickhead.

    But I quite like the idea of "all need" for random pugs, it's a lot more fair for players that are camping a rare and don't have any item on the loot table. Makes all the loot have some value, ofc these rules should be established prior, and setting some ground rules, like if you win one item you can't roll on another one until everyone gets it. 

    But in the end it's up to the group itself, I rembember VR saying there will be no loot system, the players will be the ones deciding how to handle it.

    That works for WoW, but when items are freely able to be traded (non-soulbound) then it doesn't tend to stack up in pick up groups. One often doesn't know the people they are grouping with when in a PUG and you are all putting in equal effort and/or time toward a named mob that may not drop things for your class at all. Sure the warrior might be able to use the breastplate but maybe he already has one? Maybe he just rolls need on every plate drop because he can and it guarantees him more money in the long run? What puts his need for character advancement above your own? 

     

    It's definitely going to be something the group has to agree on at the start, especially in this day and age where most people are used to bound items and NBG. But NBG isn't flawless or any less full of selfish people like many claim, though it does work great among friends and guild members.  So I propose that what is most fair is letting whomever wants to roll, to roll. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at May 25, 2017 5:57 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    May 25, 2017 6:15 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Moved from: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6253/dual-specialization/view/page/11

    oneADseven said:

    A wizard wanting to roll on a rare plate chest piece that would be an upgrade for the tank? ... /puke  Never in all my years of gaming has that been considered anything but pure greed.  One could argue that virtually any item that has a monetary value could be "used" by every class because it could deepen their pockets.  I'll pass on that.  I would never roll on caster gear or spells if they are an upgrade to someone in my group, nor would I allow someone in my group who played like that.  This is supposed to be a group-centric game ... where accomplishments are "shared" ... and for people who like "cooperative play."  If that's how things used to be in EQ, I'm really glad the MMO community has evolved to the point where if something drops and it's an upgrade for someone in the group, it's expected that they get priority on it.  I wouldn't have it any other way.

     

    It would have been a colossal waste of my time in EQ if I went by that. Why would casters ever waste their time camping the frenzy or ghoul lord spawns in Lower Guk when they have pretty much zero chance of getting an FBSS or Ykesha? Or camping the spore king when you'd have next to no chance to get a Fungi Tunic? Unless every named camp in this game has drops for each class then you are wasting your time camping things that don't get you loot and advance your character, especially at max level. (This only applies to pick up groups, if you play with friends/guild members then by all means do need before greed)

     

    It's not like most items are going to be bind on pickup/equip. If the mob the group is camping doesn't drop caster stuff and I am a caster then why can't I "need" roll on the item as I please? I'm investing just as much time and effort with everyone else in the group so why shouldn't I have a shot at the rewards? If I win and can sell the item and buy something I can actually use. It isn't that the warrior NEEDS the breastplate, he WANTS it. 

     

    It's all just want. You want the piece of armor to use, which can always be sold later for profit. I want the piece of armor to sell now to get something else. You need the piece of armor because it is an upgrade for a while then you can sell it later. I need the piece of armor to sell now to buy something I can actually use. If it is a trade-able item then anyone in the group can use it even if they cannot equip it. It isn't greedy or "me me me."

     

    greednoun: intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.

    self·ishadjective: (of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.

     

    Which sounds more greedy/selfish? "I can equip that armor so it should be mine" or "Let's all have a roll and see who wins."

     

    If you want to pass for someone else then you are selfless, if you think you are entitled to an item because you can equip it then you are selfish. If everyone gets a roll then at worst things are fair.

     

    jpedrote said:

    @Iksar

    Never played the game like that, allways been need before greed in WoW, and if you didn't follow the NbG rule in random groups you're considered a proper dickhead.

    But I quite like the idea of "all need" for random pugs, it's a lot more fair for players that are camping a rare and don't have any item on the loot table. Makes all the loot have some value, ofc these rules should be established prior, and setting some ground rules, like if you win one item you can't roll on another one until everyone gets it. 

    But in the end it's up to the group itself, I rembember VR saying there will be no loot system, the players will be the ones deciding how to handle it.

    That works for WoW, but when items are freely able to be traded (non-soulbound) then it doesn't tend to stack up in pick up groups. One often doesn't know the people they are grouping with when in a PUG and you are all putting in equal effort and/or time toward a named mob that may not drop things for your class at all. Sure the warrior might be able to use the breastplate but maybe he already has one? Maybe he just rolls need on every plate drop because he can and it guarantees him more money in the long run? What puts his need for character advancement above your own? 

     

    It's definitely going to be something the group has to agree on at the start, especially in this day and age where most people are used to bound items and NBG. But NBG isn't flawless or any less full of selfish people like many claim, though it does work great among friends and guild members.  So I propose that what is most fair is letting whomever wants to roll, to roll. 

    I can tell you now that no tank in their right mind is going to bring along a wizard that wants to roll on tank upgrades.  Tanks are generally the most sought after class when it comes to starting a group and that's because they more often than not lead the group and set the pace.  If you use the LFG tool in WoW as a DPS you'll see a 45 minute que time.  You use it as a tank and it's instant que.  Maybe it's not like that in every game (WoW is the only one I have ever played that had that tool) but historically good tanks are highly sought after whenever a group forms up.  If a wizard told me they were going to roll on upgrades for MY class I would laugh my ass off and promptly replace them with one of the many other DPS players out there likely looking for a group who knows how to play nice.

    If an item drops and it's an upgrade to someone in the group, they get priority, period.  If it's not an upgrade then by all means, of course, let people roll for selling rights.  There is no issue with that.  But if something drops that is an immediate upgrade to someone in the party right then and there, I think it's extremely out of line to think that you should be able to roll on it so that you can go and sell it.  You pull crap like that and you'll get an express ticket to Blacklists'R'Us.  I can't believe you would try to defend that stance.  I seriously just can't imagine if I was in a group and a wizard spell dropped that a wizard in my group needed that I would want to roll on it.  Never ever ever would I do that.  I wouldn't even associate with people who think like that.

    I didn't play EQ but I have heard plenty of stories about SSoY and the Fungi Tunic and it should go without saying that if someone in the group could use that item when it dropped, it should go to them.  You ask why should you bother camping it?  Well maybe you shouldn't?  Maybe you should go camp something that's useful for your class and expect the same kindness and generosity from the community so that when that special something drops, they let you have it.  I have spent hundreds of hours camping names for loot that I didn't need and everytime something awesome dropped that was an upgrade for someone in my party, it was a wonderful sensation for me as I knew I was helping someone acquire something that meant a lot to them.  The thought of taking it for myself to sell it, knowing how much it would have meant to the person in the group that needed it ... ugh, it just makes my skin crawl.  Correct me if I am wrong but I believe what you are talking about is generally referred to as "ninja looting" and many people despise it.  There are several variations of "ninja looting" for sure ... but if something drops and it's an upgrade to someone in the group and another person takes it and sells it ... yeah that's ninja looting in my book.

     

    *Edit  --  Well now you are saying that it definitely needs to be agreed to at the start.  That obviously changes things a little bit ... but still.  Good luck finding a tank desperate enough to group with a DPS class that wants to roll on "upgrades."  You're changing it up some now.  Obviously if it's a piece of duplicate gear then yeah, have at it, roll for greed.  What we were talking about were "upgrades."  You were trying to make a case that a plate breastplate was just as much of an upgrade for YOU as it was the TANK because you could sell it and then buy yourself a robe or something else.  That's greed, and again, no tank in their right mind is going to bring along a DPS player who tries to pull crap like that.

    I am referring to this comment:

    "Well...that's how it was in EQ and I honestly am hoping it ends up in Pantheon, not gearing each spec but people rolling on everything. EQ was a roll/pass system and I hope they incorporate that into this game over need before greed. Everyone in the group can roll on drops regardless of who can "use" it (everyone can use it in some way even if they can't equip) because everyone is there putting in the same time and effort. NBG works in games like WoW where items are mostly soulbound and having someone take other class gear is a total waste, but in a system like this a wizard taking a rare plate chest means he can sell it and get a robe or something else for his class."


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 25, 2017 6:22 PM PDT
    • 3016 posts
    May 25, 2017 6:53 PM PDT

    I really don't understand someone who doesn't get....if a piece of armor drops for a particular class...and its an UPGRADE,  it goes to the person that needs that upgrade,  not some person in group that wants to sell it for plat or give to their alt.   I have been on plenty of adventures, where I didn't expect anything..I went for the fun and cameraderie..and that's why when it comes down to two or three people who could actually use that piece ..then people roll on it.   The other thing I find disgusting is those that NEED everything..when in fact they just want to sell it and to heck with the person who could have used it to upgrade.    But some choose to be like that.   Those very same people gain a rep they won't like either..over time.    Play fair, play honest.   Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. 

    • 2752 posts
    May 25, 2017 8:19 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I didn't play EQ but I have heard plenty of stories about SSoY and the Fungi Tunic and it should go without saying that if someone in the group could use that item when it dropped, it should go to them.  You ask why should you bother camping it?  Well maybe you shouldn't?  Maybe you should go camp something that's useful for your class and expect the same kindness and generosity from the community so that when that special something drops, they let you have it.  I have spent hundreds of hours camping names for loot that I didn't need and everytime something awesome dropped that was an upgrade for someone in my party, it was a wonderful sensation for me as I knew I was helping someone acquire something that meant a lot to them.  The thought of taking it for myself to sell it, knowing how much it would have meant to the person in the group that needed it ... ugh, it just makes my skin crawl.  Correct me if I am wrong but I believe what you are talking about is generally referred to as "ninja looting" and many people despise it.  There are several variations of "ninja looting" for sure ... but if something drops and it's an upgrade to someone in the group and another person takes it and sells it ... yeah that's ninja looting in my book.

     

    *Edit  --  Well now you are saying that it definitely needs to be agreed to at the start.  That obviously changes things a little bit ... but still.  Good luck finding a tank desperate enough to group with a DPS class that wants to roll on "upgrades."  You're changing it up some now.  Obviously if it's a piece of duplicate gear then yeah, have at it, roll for greed.  What we were talking about were "upgrades."  You were trying to make a case that a plate breastplate was just as much of an upgrade for YOU as it was the TANK because you could sell it and then buy yourself a robe or something else.  That's greed, and again, no tank in their right mind is going to bring along a DPS player who tries to pull crap like that.

    I am referring to this comment:

    "Well...that's how it was in EQ and I honestly am hoping it ends up in Pantheon, not gearing each spec but people rolling on everything. EQ was a roll/pass system and I hope they incorporate that into this game over need before greed. Everyone in the group can roll on drops regardless of who can "use" it (everyone can use it in some way even if they can't equip) because everyone is there putting in the same time and effort. NBG works in games like WoW where items are mostly soulbound and having someone take other class gear is a total waste, but in a system like this a wizard taking a rare plate chest means he can sell it and get a robe or something else for his class."

    "You ask why should you bother camping it?  Well maybe you shouldn't?  Maybe you should go camp something that's useful for your class and expect the same kindness and generosity from the community so that when that special something drops, they let you have it."

     

    So what do I do when I reach level 50 and am trying to gear up my character? Do I have to rely solely upon getting into camps with equipment I need, even when those camps might be filled for hours? I don't get exp at that point so there is nothing for me there either. Should everyone just focus on their own items? Or does everyone else just play for the sake of playing, with no care toward progressing their character. In a simple need/pass system, I don't have to rely on anyone's genorosity or letting me have something. I put in the time to camp the mob for the opporunity to roll and eventually earn the item fair and square. I'd lose plenty but I would savor the wins.  

     

    Explain to me exactly how it isn't fair that everyone involved in camping a named gets an equal shot at the reward? Not just me, the whole group. All 6 people getting a shot. In all levels, sometimes you'd win and sometimes you'd lose. Sometimes you'd win your upgrade and sometimes you wouldn't, other times you'd win some item you couldn't use and be able to sell THAT for something you could. Everyone would win some and lose some. That was just how things went on my EQ server and during my time on Project 1999 and no one ever had issue or felt betrayed because in the end it all averaged out. No one was going to just give another player that Fungi Tunic because the value of the item was so great that you could pretty much buy multiple other BiS items for your class by selling it. I don't see selfish anywhere in the mix of equal time/effort in a camp desiring equal chance at reward. 

     

    "I think it's extremely out of line to think that you should be able to roll on it so that you can go and sell it."

    So no, it isn't out of line. They likely upgrade that item sooner than later and then THEY sell it and be all the richer for it. The only difference is I sell it as soon as possible (after fairly winning a roll against 5 others) to someone else who will use it and then buy something I can use from someone else. It's the best way for camps to work. Instead of having to rely on getting into the small handful of camps that drop items that you can use and are direct upgrades, you can join ANY camp and have a shot to at least get a different item you can either trade/sell to get the item from a camp you can't get into. And so it goes for everyone, and grouping is much better for all. 

     

    Ninja looting is looting an item before anyone rolls/passes on an item followed often by leaving the group. 

     

    It isn't just me, this thread is full of people like myself who were brought up in a different MMO atmosphere and make your skin crawl. 

    • 3237 posts
    May 25, 2017 8:58 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    oneADseven said:

    I didn't play EQ but I have heard plenty of stories about SSoY and the Fungi Tunic and it should go without saying that if someone in the group could use that item when it dropped, it should go to them.  You ask why should you bother camping it?  Well maybe you shouldn't?  Maybe you should go camp something that's useful for your class and expect the same kindness and generosity from the community so that when that special something drops, they let you have it.  I have spent hundreds of hours camping names for loot that I didn't need and everytime something awesome dropped that was an upgrade for someone in my party, it was a wonderful sensation for me as I knew I was helping someone acquire something that meant a lot to them.  The thought of taking it for myself to sell it, knowing how much it would have meant to the person in the group that needed it ... ugh, it just makes my skin crawl.  Correct me if I am wrong but I believe what you are talking about is generally referred to as "ninja looting" and many people despise it.  There are several variations of "ninja looting" for sure ... but if something drops and it's an upgrade to someone in the group and another person takes it and sells it ... yeah that's ninja looting in my book.

     

    *Edit  --  Well now you are saying that it definitely needs to be agreed to at the start.  That obviously changes things a little bit ... but still.  Good luck finding a tank desperate enough to group with a DPS class that wants to roll on "upgrades."  You're changing it up some now.  Obviously if it's a piece of duplicate gear then yeah, have at it, roll for greed.  What we were talking about were "upgrades."  You were trying to make a case that a plate breastplate was just as much of an upgrade for YOU as it was the TANK because you could sell it and then buy yourself a robe or something else.  That's greed, and again, no tank in their right mind is going to bring along a DPS player who tries to pull crap like that.

    I am referring to this comment:

    "Well...that's how it was in EQ and I honestly am hoping it ends up in Pantheon, not gearing each spec but people rolling on everything. EQ was a roll/pass system and I hope they incorporate that into this game over need before greed. Everyone in the group can roll on drops regardless of who can "use" it (everyone can use it in some way even if they can't equip) because everyone is there putting in the same time and effort. NBG works in games like WoW where items are mostly soulbound and having someone take other class gear is a total waste, but in a system like this a wizard taking a rare plate chest means he can sell it and get a robe or something else for his class."

    "You ask why should you bother camping it?  Well maybe you shouldn't?  Maybe you should go camp something that's useful for your class and expect the same kindness and generosity from the community so that when that special something drops, they let you have it."

     

    So what do I do when I reach level 50 and am trying to gear up my character? Do I have to rely solely upon getting into camps with equipment I need, even when those camps might be filled for hours? I don't get exp at that point so there is nothing for me there either. Should everyone just focus on their own items? Or does everyone else just play for the sake of playing, with no care toward progressing their character. In a simple need/pass system, I don't have to rely on anyone's genorosity or letting me have something. I put in the time to camp the mob for the opporunity to roll and eventually earn the item fair and square. I'd lose plenty but I would savor the wins.  

     

    Explain to me exactly how it isn't fair that everyone involved in camping a named gets an equal shot at the reward? Not just me, the whole group. All 6 people getting a shot. In all levels, sometimes you'd win and sometimes you'd lose. Sometimes you'd win your upgrade and sometimes you wouldn't, other times you'd win some item you couldn't use and be able to sell THAT for something you could. Everyone would win some and lose some. That was just how things went on my EQ server and during my time on Project 1999 and no one ever had issue or felt betrayed because in the end it all averaged out. No one was going to just give another player that Fungi Tunic because the value of the item was so great that you could pretty much buy multiple other BiS items for your class by selling it. I don't see selfish anywhere in the mix of equal time/effort in a camp desiring equal chance at reward. 

     

    "I think it's extremely out of line to think that you should be able to roll on it so that you can go and sell it."

    So no, it isn't out of line. They likely upgrade that item sooner than later and then THEY sell it and be all the richer for it. The only difference is I sell it as soon as possible (after fairly winning a roll against 5 others) to someone else who will use it and then buy something I can use from someone else. It's the best way for camps to work. Instead of having to rely on getting into the small handful of camps that drop items that you can use and are direct upgrades, you can join ANY camp and have a shot to at least get a different item you can either trade/sell to get the item from a camp you can't get into. And so it goes for everyone, and grouping is much better for all. 

     

    Ninja looting is looting an item before anyone rolls/passes on an item followed often by leaving the group. 

     

    It isn't just me, this thread is full of people like myself who were brought up in a different MMO atmosphere and make your skin crawl. 

    "So what do I do when I reach level 50 and am trying to gear up my character? Do I have to rely solely upon getting into camps with equipment I need, even when those camps might be filled for hours? I don't get exp at that point so there is nothing for me there either. Should everyone just focus on their own items? Or does everyone else just play for the sake of playing, with no care toward progressing their character. In a simple need/pass system, I don't have to rely on anyone's genorosity or letting me have something. I put in the time to camp the mob for the opporunity to roll and eventually earn the item fair and square. I'd lose plenty but I would savor the wins."

    A great place to start would be to make some friends.  If you need something, they will help you get it.  There are plenty of ways to make money in an MMO that don't require selling loot that was an upgrade to someone in your group.  You could craft ... harvest, or group with some friends who don't "need" the rare items that you're farming.

     

    "Explain to me exactly how it isn't fair that everyone involved in camping a named gets an equal shot at the reward? Not just me, the whole group. All 6 people getting a shot. In all levels, sometimes you'd win and sometimes you'd lose. Sometimes you'd win your upgrade and sometimes you wouldn't, other times you'd win some item you couldn't use and be able to sell THAT for something you could. Everyone would win some and lose some. That was just how things went on my EQ server and during my time on Project 1999 and no one ever had issue or felt betrayed because in the end it all averaged out. No one was going to just give another player that Fungi Tunic because the value of the item was so great that you could pretty much buy multiple other BiS items for your class by selling it. I don't see selfish anywhere in the mix of equal time/effort in a camp desiring equal chance at reward. "

    Need Before Greed has been universally adopted in every MMO I have ever played and if you don't understand the basic fundamentals of that system then this conversation is already a lost cause.  I am trying to give you some friendly advice here ... that kind of behavior will get you blacklisted.  Again, if you're in a group where everybody is okay with that, fine.  But never assume that it's okay because it isn't.

     

    "So no, it isn't out of line. They likely upgrade that item sooner than later and then THEY sell it and be all the richer for it. The only difference is I sell it as soon as possible (after fairly winning a roll against 5 others) to someone else who will use it and then buy something I can use from someone else. It's the best way for camps to work. Instead of having to rely on getting into the small handful of camps that drop items that you can use and are direct upgrades, you can join ANY camp and have a shot to at least get a different item you can either trade/sell to get the item from a camp you can't get into. And so it goes for everyone, and grouping is much better for all."

    Sounds good man.  Like I said, let me know how that works out for you.  Let me know how many tank friends you make (isn't that the point, making friends?) by looting their gear upgrades and then turning around to sell them.  Odds are ... any tank you do that to will likely never group with you again.  They'll be sure to tell all of their friends about what you did as well and from there you have a chain reaction of people who will refuse to group with you.  You'll end up having no choice but to group with other people who share that loot philosophy (it will be very limited because most people "get it") and have to make it work.  Like I said before ... why would a tank bring along a wizard who wants to roll on tank upgrades when they can find plenty of other capable DPS who know how to play nice?

     

    "Ninja looting is looting an item before anyone rolls/passes on an item followed often by leaving the group. 

    It isn't just me, this thread is full of people like myself who were brought up in a different MMO atmosphere and make your skin crawl."

    Whatever you say.  I read through the first few pages and this thread is hardly "full of people" who would prefer to see wizards rolling on upgrades that a tank could use for the sake of selling it.  I don't think tanks should automatically get every piece of plate that drops.  That's greed.  But if it's an upgrade ... then yes, it should go to them!  I feel the same way about any other piece of loot, I don't care what class it's for.  If it's an upgrade to someone in the group ... let them have it!  I know plenty of people who played (and still play) EQ and 100% of them agree that if someone pulls a stunt like what you mentioned, they're labeled a douchebag and publically shamed.

     

    Now, this isn't to say that your "loot philsophy" couldn't apply situationally.  There are times where it could make sense as long as everybody agrees to it beforehand.  But this method that you think is "fair" is highly situational.  You should never join a group thinking that it's okay to loot something with the intention to sell when it's an upgrade for someone in your party.  It's common courtesy man.  I'm having a real hard time believing that an entire server was okay with this system you speak of.  Either way, how long ago was that?  Times have changed.  That isn't the norm.  It's a highly situational loot system that would absolutely need to be agreed to by all parties.  It's only "fair" if it's pre-established ... otherwise it's way out of line and borderline griefing.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 25, 2017 9:05 PM PDT
    • 13 posts
    May 25, 2017 9:23 PM PDT

    Guys, i'm sorry, I wasn't trying to go off on this tangent with my post in the other thread.  This is definately one subject that can get heated pretty quickly.  But I will say that I have to completely agree with oneADseven and he's making a better point than I was, which is basically what I was trying to get at to begin with.

    • 839 posts
    May 25, 2017 10:51 PM PDT

    If I was in a group where they wanted everyone to roll on everything only and we all rolled for an item.  And then it turned out the item was an upgrade for one of the group members and I won it i would just give it to that person who needs it. If i didnt win it I would also try and push the winner (if not the person who needs it) to consider giving it to the person who needs.  Likely if the group wasnt using need before greed by that moment an offer of kindness like that would probably infect them to want to participate in the giving and then you never know he/she will likely want to try and repay the favour (even though it isnt a favour it is just how it should be).  

    Its absolutely right to say it is completely fair to roll for everything and thats that, but at the same time in a scenario where we are trying to create a great community of people who are working together, giving to someone who is truly needy of the item is a wonderful way to set people off in the right direction to further strengthen the bond of the community which is a good thing!  And an easy honesty based need before greed scenario is a simple way of maintaining a good sharing environment!  It also protects those players who may not feel comfortable getting into a potential confrontation with someone else who is trying to horde as much loot as possible to sell.

    I hope they leave the "rules" up to the community, but i must say i would not be a happy camper in a group where loot that is an upgrade for someone in the group is not at least up for consideration to be handed to the needy before people even start rolling magic dice.

    • 9115 posts
    May 25, 2017 11:44 PM PDT

    Hokanu said:

    If I was in a group where they wanted everyone to roll on everything only and we all rolled for an item.  And then it turned out the item was an upgrade for one of the group members and I won it i would just give it to that person who needs it. If i didnt win it I would also try and push the winner (if not the person who needs it) to consider giving it to the person who needs.  Likely if the group wasnt using need before greed by that moment an offer of kindness like that would probably infect them to want to participate in the giving and then you never know he/she will likely want to try and repay the favour (even though it isnt a favour it is just how it should be).  

    Its absolutely right to say it is completely fair to roll for everything and thats that, but at the same time in a scenario where we are trying to create a great community of people who are working together, giving to someone who is truly needy of the item is a wonderful way to set people off in the right direction to further strengthen the bond of the community which is a good thing!  And an easy honesty based need before greed scenario is a simple way of maintaining a good sharing environment!  It also protects those players who may not feel comfortable getting into a potential confrontation with someone else who is trying to horde as much loot as possible to sell.

    I hope they leave the "rules" up to the community, but i must say i would not be a happy camper in a group where loot that is an upgrade for someone in the group is not at least up for consideration to be handed to the needy before people even start rolling magic dice.

    That's exactly how I would act too, while everyone who participates in the combat that results in loot, if there is a specific class upgrade for someone in the group, I would not roll on it or roll greed and give it to them if I won, as a Rogue, I would feel pretty bad if I won a decent tank chest piece that someone could have used just so I could put it up for sale and get a few gold.

    That is just me though, everyone is different and has different reasoning and views, they are entitled to take the chest piece if they won it fairly but personally, that wouldn;t sit well with me and I would want the person to get an upgrade over making a few gold for myself and this ladies and gentleman is a great example of socialisation, player reputation and community morals and values at work, different people and different groups will handle this issue however they want and the people involved will have an opinion and remember those actions, for better or worse the next time there is a camp group those players may have an easier or harder time getting into a group depending on their actions and I think this is a very important part of our game and the community, this is something you folks will have to sort out in-game between yourselves. :)

    • 2752 posts
    May 26, 2017 1:54 AM PDT

    I have no doubt that the way NBG is termed is a major reason why it is so prevalent since anyone that doesnt agree with it tends  to be dismissed as greedy. It also has served well as a tool for those that are greedy to use as a very stealthy way of gaining more loot than others, even while no doubt a majority of those that sponsor its use do so with the best intentions. 

     

    I would much prefer to leave it up to peoples individual consciences on whether or not to roll on an item, rather than a system that can be clearly used to do exactly the opposite of what it was intended for. I think NBG is great with guilds/friends but it doesn't work nearly as well with strangers or new aquaintences, or maybe I have just had too many bad experiences with it. The problem is assuming that the person is being honest, when they have no reason to be honest. People lie, cheat, and steal in real life where there may be repercussions but there is no repercussion here unless you get caught multiple times over which is really hard to do considering how easy it is to just swap equipment and unload extras onto alts. I've encountered my fair share of players who are "nice" only to run into them a day or two later at the same camps taking the same items again keeping their old armor so they can claim need. Which is why I think FFA/everyone rolls is a more fair way, everyone has exactly equal chance to win and if you want to be altruistic you can give the item to whomever you want if you win or just pass entirely.


    I also personally still dont agree with the fundamental concept that someone wearing an item that dropped while camping a mob is morally better than someone getting it, selling it, and buying things that they need with it. You could just as well call the system IMBNTRT (Immediate Need Before Need That Requires Trading), but of course that system doesn't make any sense because why would the fact that you can wear something that just dropped be any better than being able to trade for something you need just as badly?

     

    So I think the best looting option for pick up groups is:


    Whatever drops, you roll for it. 

    If something else drops that you want, you roll for it as well. If you win, you throw the first item you won back into the group for a roll (you don't get to roll on this).

    That way if 6 items drop for a group of 6 players everyone gets an item.

     

     

    I am basing all of this off of classic EQ drop rates, in which you could be at a camp for 3+ hours before seeing a single rare drop. If items drop from far more mobs and far more often than EQ then I guess it doesn't matter NBG or FFA. Or maybe itemization is better and each camp has drops for all classes so it doesn't matter. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at May 26, 2017 1:58 AM PDT
    • 175 posts
    May 26, 2017 5:58 AM PDT

    It comes down to the idea of "earned" loot.

    If a drop is an upgrade for a class, it is seen as "earned" vs if they took the drop and sold it for something else that was just as much of an upgrade. It's been this way forever. If you make it or pry it out of that mob's dead cold claws then it is somehow more "moral" than if you gave that breastplate to the wizard and he sold it to buy a spell he desperately needed. I'm guessing there's a lot of mental stuff going on there, but doesn't make it unreal. It's a lot easier to consider your contribution as worthwhile when the item is seen as being used effectively versus that wizard who may just sell the damn thing and whore it up for all I know.

    I know cause I've felt this way in the past. I'm much more interested in making that alt Carpenter to fashion my own Bow than to go buy it more cheaply from the crafter down the street. And again, if I can loot it through fighting, that's even better than crafting! I don't know why that is, just feels like I'm "playing the game" instead of buying my way to glory.

    That being said, I've never had a problem with people rolling/taking whatever they want during a camp. If there is an item I'm specifically after, then that's declared from the outset. But everything else is fair game. If more than one of us is after the same item, then we roll. But random awesome loot? That's open to everyone who helped.

    The most sinister effect of the WoW years of gaming is all these systems that have been added to make the game eaiser/less tedious/more moral have subtly defanged/demystified the genre as a whole. No longer is it about the feel of the world, and our interaction with it and eachother. It's about systems and interfaces and character progression. I truly hope VR doesn't lose sight of what's at stake in their effort to add "meaning" to the game.

    • 3 posts
    May 26, 2017 6:13 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

     I would act too, while everyone who participates in the combat that results in loot, if there is a specific class upgrade for someone in the group, I would not roll on it or roll greed and give it to them if I won, as a Rogue, I would feel pretty bad if I won a decent tank chest piece that someone could have used just so I could put it up for sale and get a few gold.


    That is just me though, everyone is different and has different reasoning and views, they are entitled to take the chest piece if they won it fairly but personally, that wouldn;t sit well with me and I would want the person to get an upgrade over making a few gold for myself and this ladies and gentleman is a great example of socialisation, player reputation and community morals and values at work, different people and different groups will handle this issue however they want and the people involved will have an opinion and remember those actions, for better or worse the next time there is a camp group those players may have an easier or harder time getting into a group depending on their actions and I think this is a very important part of our game and the community, this is something you folks will have to sort out in-game between yourselves. :)

     

    What Kilsin said is perfect.  It's how things worked back in the day.  Some groups were in it for the loot and free roll for everything.  Others were in it for an upgrade for a certain member first and it was usually mentioned when a new player joined the group.  If that player did not agree then they could go elsewhere.  If you are in that group and looking to get somebody an upgrade in a free roll group, then if you get the item give it to your friend.  It's not that hard of a concept.

     

    The community is not going to be super massive.  There aren't going to be millions of new f-tards running around just worried about theirselves and getting phat lewts because they won't have to deal with you after their cross-server instance is done with.  You will be around a lot of the same people and see the same names throughout the game.  You will also find out who to watch out for, either from personal experience or from someone's else personal experience getting aired out in /ooc.

     

    For those only with WoW/Modern MMO experience, your name will have more weight than you think.

    • 690 posts
    May 26, 2017 7:30 AM PDT

    I'm not terribly interested in the specifics of the looting system myself.

    I figure if we are going to leave a bunch of things to the Pantheon community then we should dive in head first and leave these things to the community

    Let's stick with basic rules where someone cant ninja loot for like 5 minutes and the individual/party/raid handle the rest.

    Maybe throw in a couple different basic settings for loot the party leader can set up; For convenience rather than attempting to stop any form of ninja in or out of the party. The party leader could be able to right click an item and transport it into a party member's inventory to speed things up. 

    If the community turns out to be less effective than we think and ninja becomes commonplace I'm sure testing will point it out and we can figure from there. I know in testing I'm going to actively try to break as many rules as I can.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at May 26, 2017 7:35 AM PDT
    • 1618 posts
    May 26, 2017 8:16 AM PDT

    It all comes down to your current group. Always determine the loot rules before you start.

    If the group agrees on the loot rules, all is good.

    If you don't agree with the loot rules, leave the group.

    • 3016 posts
    May 26, 2017 8:24 AM PDT

    The only way I would see this as fair..is if the item wasn't an upgrade for anyone in the group...ie:  leftover loot.   This needs to be established by the group leader and agreed upon by the group.     Then have at it rolling for what you want.    But its not one person's decision, that belongs to the group.     There have been many times I haven't rolled period,  item didn't interest me or..I figured it was an upgrade for someone.    If items were offered up that weren't upgrades to group members,  yes I'd roll,  otherwise I would abstain.     This is how I operate.    Oh and I have been known to leave groups where blatant greed, and disregard for other group members was being exhibited.     I refuse to be part of that kind of behaviour.    So there's that.    I'm hoping our community will be better than that. 

     

    Cana

    • 12 posts
    May 26, 2017 9:11 AM PDT

    After 20 plus years on MMO's if i was grouped with a player who greeded a item over a player who needed as an upgrade that would be the last group or help they ever recieve from me .These games are about helping each other grouping and the experience not how big a pile of plate i can sit on in the bank. 

     

    just my 2 cents

    • 1714 posts
    May 26, 2017 9:17 AM PDT

    EQ's current advanced loot system is a convoluted mess, but it does help with the problem of ninja looting. Perhaps an improved version of that. I do like the idea of being able to squelch certain items. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at May 26, 2017 10:39 AM PDT
    • 1714 posts
    May 26, 2017 9:18 AM PDT

    Madass said:

    After 20 plus years on MMO's if i was grouped with a player who greeded a item over a player who needed as an upgrade that would be the last group or help they ever recieve from me .These games are about helping each other grouping and the experience not how big a pile of plate i can sit on in the bank. 

     

    just my 2 cents

    The real issue is people using need when they don't need it. If I greed and you need, you get it by default. 

    • 1281 posts
    May 26, 2017 10:19 AM PDT

    I wouldn't object to a "loot rule" option that can be set, or possibly a message box you can type in that is visible to group members. Would make keeping track of it easy.

    • 1778 posts
    May 26, 2017 11:06 AM PDT
    Bard gets everything. And sells it all to buy a cathedral with a very large pipe organ.
    • 483 posts
    May 26, 2017 11:32 AM PDT

    @Iksar

    Never played the game like that, allways been need before greed in WoW, and if you didn't follow the NbG rule in random groups you're considered a proper dickhead.

    But I quite like the idea of "all need" for random pugs, it's a lot more fair for players that are camping a rare and don't have any item on the loot table. Makes all the loot have some value, ofc these rules should be established prior, and setting some ground rules, like if you win one item you can't roll on another one until everyone gets it. 

    But in the end it's up to the group itself, I rembember VR saying there will be no loot system, the players will be the ones deciding how to handle it.

    (moved from the dual spec thread)

    • 2752 posts
    May 26, 2017 11:57 AM PDT

    jpedrote said:

    @Iksar

    Never played the game like that, allways been need before greed in WoW, and if you didn't follow the NbG rule in random groups you're considered a proper dickhead.

    But I quite like the idea of "all need" for random pugs, it's a lot more fair for players that are camping a rare and don't have any item on the loot table. Makes all the loot have some value, ofc these rules should be established prior, and setting some ground rules, like if you win one item you can't roll on another one until everyone gets it. 

    But in the end it's up to the group itself, I rembember VR saying there will be no loot system, the players will be the ones deciding how to handle it.

    (moved from the dual spec thread)

     

    That's what I mean. It makes sense in groups of people you know, be it friends or guildmates and especially in a game like WoW as almost all items are bind on pickup AND when the next boss/loot drop is a mere 5 minutes away, knocking out 5 bosses in 30 minutes then restarting the instance. If this is anything like EQ then I am figuring I will be spending multiple hours at a camp before a single piece of worthwhile loot drops. Players can cheat the system with NBG and I have seen it happen enough, but you cannot cheat /random. I mean, at the very least if you are directly upgrading in a pug with NBG then let the players roll for your old piece of equipment. 

     

    Definitely each group needs to clairfy the rules for each joining member. 

     

     

    • 483 posts
    May 26, 2017 12:38 PM PDT

    @Iksar

    Also this "all need" rule is only used for really valuable item rights? not some random item that's only a small upgrade for one of the group members.

    • 2752 posts
    May 26, 2017 1:20 PM PDT

    jpedrote said:

    @Iksar

    Also this "all need" rule is only used for really valuable item rights? not some random item that's only a small upgrade for one of the group members.

     

    Yeah, pretty much only for items worth over 500 platinum and mostly only for higher level (40+) loot so low-mid level items tend to go to whomever "needs" the upgrade. Since once you hit 50 you aren't getting exp it tends to lead a lot of players toward camps with the gear they do need, but if everyone can roll then suddenly every camp becomes a fair chance to get closer to what you need. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at May 26, 2017 1:24 PM PDT