Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Looting rules

    • 8 posts
    September 15, 2016 2:06 PM PDT

    Yes Looting does rule! 

    What type of loot rules do you guys like in MMOs?

    1. EQ. If you are in a group anyone can loot something. If someone in group wants to ninja something they can.

    2. Others. Need / Greed roll options based on your class. ie: warrior only item drops and only warriors can select Need option, others can select Greed or Pass.

    3. Other examples?

    One innovation I would like to see in Need/Greed systems is if you select Need the game actually checks if the item is indeed better than what you are wearing. Have seen people just blindly select Need even though its not an upgrade.

     

     


    This post was edited by daserack at September 15, 2016 2:07 PM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    September 15, 2016 2:23 PM PDT

    My personal preference is both procedural loot and personal loot.  That removes the need for "looting systems" entirely.  You get what you get and that's that.

    ---However, if pantheon sticks with the rather antiquated notion of shared loot only, then I would prefer:

    You can't need roll on an item unless it matches your race/class combination, if it's race/class restricted.  Otherwise, everyone needs everything, and the system is stupidly broken . Why have the option if people can ignore it.  No, I don't care about my alts, and I don't care about your alts. :)

    I would prefer the ability to set it to "greed everything" rather than have to choose need/greed for each item, as an option.  I just don't want to care about loot while I'm fighting and someone decides they want to loot in combat.  Just hide it from me and let me fight.  Loot is not so important than I want to be distracted in combat by it.  I'm more interested in being effective in combat.

    As far as when/if solo'ing?  Let me hoover everything.  Don't even show me, just take it all, all the time, as an option.

    When raiding?  Put it all into the guild bank directly (with messages to the officers/leaders), then let the officers/leaders sort it out after the raid (in-zone quest items/flags exempt, of course, if applicable)

    • 49 posts
    September 15, 2016 2:30 PM PDT
    I prefer the original EQ looting ninjas happen then they get a bad rep and can't find groups anymore it weeds out the dirtbags in my opinion
    • 2756 posts
    September 15, 2016 3:48 PM PDT

    It's one of those areas where no doubt some will want it the EQ way "just coz" but, good grief, this has to be a mechanic where there is no good reason to avoid some modern convenience.

    Free-for-all, need/greed/pass, rarity filters, round-robin, nominated, auto-loot, AoE loot, class/race restriction filter, etc, etc, etc, even 'personalised' loot.  Just give us all the options and leave it up to the group/raid leader.

    Have the argument over loot rules when joining a group and then no tedious messing about and arguing from then on.

    • 500 posts
    September 15, 2016 4:24 PM PDT

    I agree with Disposalist.  Make various options available and let groups decide how they want to divvy up loot.

    • 2419 posts
    September 15, 2016 6:25 PM PDT

    daserack said:

    Yes Looting does rule! 

    What type of loot rules do you guys like in MMOs?

    1. EQ. If you are in a group anyone can loot something. If someone in group wants to ninja something they can.

    2. Others. Need / Greed roll options based on your class. ie: warrior only item drops and only warriors can select Need option, others can select Greed or Pass.

    3. Other examples?

    One innovation I would like to see in Need/Greed systems is if you select Need the game actually checks if the item is indeed better than what you are wearing. Have seen people just blindly select Need even though its not an upgrade.

    To me, it doesn't really matter.  Whoever put together the group decides the rules until such time as the leader decides to change it.  If I know I'm specifically needing a group for a particular drop that you can get in a general area where people normally XP in groups, I'll make a group and set the rule:  The only drop I'm guaranteed is that one drop.  I'll then ask the group what they want and will go with the majority.

    • 243 posts
    September 15, 2016 7:50 PM PDT

    Yeah I would say auto-split the coin, same with trash items (to the extent possible), then group leader control to assign loot.  If everyone knows the rules and agrees then I don't think there needs to be too elaborate of a system.  Ninjas will be punished eventually.

    • 36 posts
    September 15, 2016 10:16 PM PDT

    I'm a little conflicted on this.  

    The 'everyone gets their share' system has obvious benefits.  First, it's never a bad thing to help someone, that's HUGE, see someone killing something you can help them out without creating a conflict. But, that does have a downside in that it can make things easy where you just have a killsquad trivializing content as they lay waste to the area and all get more loot faster. It also has the downside of meaning more loot or rarer loot, you have to make up for the fact that you're now allowing a theoretically unlimited amount of loot to be created from the death of a single enemy. So, it has it's issues but does completely solve the 'kill steal' or 'ninja looter' issue. 

     

    The old EQ method honestly worked pretty well, sure you had issues, but it all kind of worked itself out in that player reputation matters in a 'smaller' community (smaller meaning reletively compared to a game like say WoW or GW2, which being what they are will likely far exceed a more niche game). But, it did still have issues, seeing someone struggling and trying to help might leave you in the position of animosity rather than gratitude, and that sucks.  Then again the ninja looter/kill stealer issues as a whole. Then also the 'auto split' function still left the main looter with more, and overall I have always hated actually looting corpses, the entire idea is a function of playing with the UI which I don't like.  With individual loot it's more reasonable to have an auto loot function which IMO is better for the pacing and playing of the game. I do realize that's not a universally shared opinion. 

     

    The need/greed, I don't want it.  You end up with people rolling 'need' that are just doing it to sell it.  You're hunting in an area that has a good warrior drop, that warrior is disproportionately rewarded if they don't have a high ethical standard. I just don't see it as overall beneficial. Yes this means that you might random off the good loot rather than always give it to someone who actually needs it and not the money from it, but in the end isn't it fair that everyone gets an opportunity at advancement not just the person who can use it directly?

     

    Personally speaking I'd want something I havent' seen before.  Mechanically designated main looters who when designated so (or if solo) initiates an auto loot function, and then can deal with it from there like in EQ.  And the split on coin functioning as values of total coin (so 1 platinum is equivalent to 10 gold which is 10silver and then 10 copper per silver, but seen internally as 1 platinum is 1000coin/copper). 

    • 126 posts
    September 15, 2016 11:08 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    (...) I would prefer:

    You can't need roll on an item unless it matches your race/class combination, if it's race/class restricted.  Otherwise, everyone needs everything, and the system is stupidly broken . Why have the option if people can ignore it.  No, I don't care about my alts, and I don't care about your alts. :)

    I would prefer the ability to set it to "greed everything" rather than have to choose need/greed for each item, as an option.  I just don't want to care about loot while I'm fighting and someone decides they want to loot in combat.  Just hide it from me and let me fight.  Loot is not so important than I want to be distracted in combat by it.  I'm more interested in being effective in combat.

    (...)

    Personally, I'd prefer if there would be no restriction whatsoever. Partly it is because I absolutely don't think that 'everyone would roll need on everything otherwise'. It may be so in other games, absolutely. But it won't in Pantheon - there might be the occasional ninja, but in a game like Pantheon, this kind of behavior will get around eventually and they'lll find out that their greed didn't turn out well for them. Being ostracized in a game where team play is the bread and butter is no fun. When people easily blame the whole guild for one bad apple, who'd invite ninjas in respectable guilds?

    Which brings me to my second point: if they'd make it so that someone could only roll need on an item they could equip. In games where that's the case, I've seen people roll need on items just because that: they could equip it. Not that they really needed it. If a plate wearer rolls need after need because he is the only one who could equip it, then for sure the squishy WILL roll need when cloth drops, out of fear that he spent hours just with repair bills at the end. Did he roll need because the item was this an improvement for him? Hell, no! And what with the ranger, nothing at all dropped only he could roll need on? Well tough luck! He also WILL roll need on anything he can next time. 

    I think the more a game police something (like rolling need only because you are the only who can) the more people'll give up their responsibility in this regard. I hope Pantheon won't overregulate things and let players be responsible.

    And if you can't be bothered to look at loot in a dungeon run, the fight is halted anyway, because I hope other people will look and compare. I for sure will do as will others, and the next fight has to wait for that anyway.


    This post was edited by Duffy at September 15, 2016 11:10 PM PDT
    • 1584 posts
    September 15, 2016 11:25 PM PDT

    I say you have a system in place to where it is leader option, but there's an auto loot system but no annoying window that pops up until your not of combat and in a "resting stage", where you can gather mana and relax for a bit.  Than there a window that comes up like in EQ and you can choose greed/need/never, And yes you can need on items you can't use this way but we  will get to know them very well, and not in a way that is going to be helping them in the long run, hard time getting in a guild, staying in one, unless they join a guild that is built around it and than the other guilds will just make sure that they will be squached anyway, we will protect each other, and will enforce to have good behavior its up to the community if ninja looting, camp stealing and all that will be tolerated.  But yeah i think my loot policy would work, wont have to worry bout something distracting you during combat, and you can choose if you want it or not once your sitting down chatting with friends.

    • 33 posts
    September 16, 2016 3:43 AM PDT
    Need / greed flags for the group that can only be changed if the whole group approves. Anytime the group changes a loot settings check window pops up. If no one agrees it defaults to need.
    • 48 posts
    September 16, 2016 7:10 AM PDT

    I like autosplit coin. For items, I'd say a simple take or pass system that randoms among those that choose to take.

    I never understood the need/greed distinction. In my mind there is no need or greed, just want. It really only makes sense when items are no drop, in which case you'd pass anyway if you couldn't use it.

    If the item is sellable, your need for the coin or upgrade you could get in exchange for it on the market is just as great as someones need for the direct upgrade. In practice, most would pass for the player that could use it then and there, but that shouldn't be assumed as the norm.


    This post was edited by tachyon at September 16, 2016 7:11 AM PDT
    • 643 posts
    September 16, 2016 10:27 AM PDT

    The problem with this topic is that many people have really no understanding of macro-economics but love to apply emotional ideas to economic situations.

    First of all, let's exclude no-drop, quest and special rare items.  Let's just talk about your basic "stuff":

    There is no such thing as NBG.  Economically it is a ruse.  

    If a group is hunting together and tradeable/sellable 2-hand sword drops, NBG says the warrior automatically gets it and never the wizard.  The reality is that the item is worth its cash value to both equally.  The warrior can sell the item to another player and buy a new pair of gloves.  But so can the wizard - the wizard can sell the item and buy a robe or a pair of gloves.

     

    This topic has been debated so incessantly and will never be resolved.  Forced looting rules, like in WoW are horrible ideas.  Just leave everything free-will and let the players decide - each group can make up their own rules.

     

     

     

    • 793 posts
    September 16, 2016 10:53 AM PDT

    I guess I was always lucky in that NBG rules were pretty much just understood. Everything was Greed, unless it was an upgrade for someone. Then that person selected need. In the case of alts needs, it still went NBG, then you send a tell to the winner or ask in group chat that that would be an upgrade for my alt so-and-so, and most times the winner would just give it to them. 

    Now this is of course more common in friend based groups and not random PUGs. 

    The one thing I would like in looting as far as advancement is the abilty for the whole group to see what dropped, whether thats just a list in group chat, or a pop up, or whatever. It doesn't have to have an auto-loot or a NBG selection option, but I hated having to search loot, then type out (or link in later days) any items that drops, then wait for response on NBG protocols. It's nice for the group to all see the loot table right on first inspection (Played one game that did it on NPC death, and in a multi-kill scenario that was annoying), this also alerts to possible ninja looting, and then everyone can state their claim to the items.

    • 1584 posts
    September 16, 2016 12:02 PM PDT

    This is a Tricky subject because you can be in a grp and find yourself a new set of friend to explore with, or be in one that could tarnish your feel with grping with people you dont know ever again.  And this and this alone will basically determine what kind of loot you want in place the bad thing is you will probably get the opposite, that why there is never going to be a right answer to this problem.  If you have a need/geed system people will need it for money if anything, unless they understand someone else can use it that directly effects them and are nice enoughto not go against them.  If you have the Need/grreed rule with the extra kicker of saying if it warrior only, only a warrior can roll need on it, the warrior could roll need on it to either line there own pockets or to directly upgrade themselves either way you cant stop them.  If you have no loot rules someone could swope in right after the target dies and see what he has and take what it was with no one being able to stop him.  Granted the things ive said are referring to the don't ever want to grp with again opinion.  but if you get in a grp the functios well and understands each other you dont need anytihng in place, no rule, no need/greed, nothig at all cuase they are working together as a team, to improve each other, one way or another.

    • 151 posts
    September 16, 2016 12:27 PM PDT

    Make it so I can do a /split 0 0 0 9999 and listen to the monk go crazy :)

    • 257 posts
    September 16, 2016 1:00 PM PDT

    If adventuring weapons & armor drops were replaced with special crafting components (only achieved by adventuring) that augmented crafted gear, then it would be useful for everyone. It would also keep crafted gear viable.

    • 15 posts
    September 16, 2016 1:34 PM PDT

    I think that Need before Greed is unnecessary with friends and guildies, and does not function as intended with strangers because "Need" can mean anything. Strangers can get into quarrels about alts and experimental builds and whatnot, and you won't hear the end of it. So I really won't be missing Need/Greed buttons if they aren't there.

    I believe the nicest, simplest loot system is Want or Pass. If you don't press anything for X seconds, you want by default, so you don't have to stop every now and then to manage a loot list. The Want/Pass system can really be used for any purpose players want. For example, guilds are organized enough that they can appoint a "master looter" and everyone else passes boss drops. It works because guilds are organized (some even have those point systems) and guildies (should) trust each other. A bunch of randos raiding together won't need a Master Looter system because the entire group may not trust a single person with all that loot anyway. So yeah, if the Pantheon team does not have a whole lot of time to design a loot system, Want or Pass works.

    As an aside, I see no reason not to split money automatically, I didn't even know some MMOs let you lot on cash, and it feels weird. I like it that you're sure to get some cash to cover your expenses at least.


    This post was edited by piellar at September 16, 2016 1:36 PM PDT
    • 86 posts
    September 16, 2016 2:04 PM PDT

    EQ, 2003.  I was a group-geared, level 59 ranger (max was 65).   My friends (end game geared 65 bard, group/raid geared 65sk) and I, along with a 65 pick up shaman headed to the newly released zone of "SolC".  At this point in time,  there wasnt much information available about the mobs or drops of this zone.  I felt like a trailblazer as we tracked to unfamiliar red-con named.  

    It took us atleast 30 minutes of steady clearing yellow-con (to 59) mobs to reach the named.  "Spiritmaster Heili" I believe.  We engauged him, it should have been a trivial encounter for my max-level friends, but it wasnt.  In this zone, mobs were around every corner, in places you couldnt see,  all piled up on top of eachother.  During the fight, we got an add, a roamer who was a healer.  Right as the add was going down it managed to cast "Gate".  There was an ominous lull in the action as it was just us and the named again. Then it began, a trickle of mobs started flowing in from around the bend.  By the time the named was at 25% we had a full group of six mobs plus the named beating on us.  Named at 10% , shaman down, bard down.  Tank at 50, 35, 20% now.  He now has low-hp aggro, all the mobs are focused on him now.  We can see it coming, the wipe is immenent.  As the tank was going down, he unleashed Harm touch and slayed the named.  As he died the last thing he uttered  as he was being struck down was "LOOT IT!".  It was now or never because the named's corpse would easily rot by the time we cleared our way back down to our corpses.  Now as the mobs killed my friend I knelt down upon the corpse to see the spoils of victory, only for a brief second before I die.  I saw a 2 handed sword, no-drop, ranger usable, as I see my chatbox spam red.   I click loot  at the same time as my screen turns to the overhead view of my corpse.  I was bound in the bazaar so thats where my gearless hafling spawned.  I rifled through my chat spam to see if I had looted it in time.  I did!  It was an upgrade that I used for a long time.

    That wall of text was one of my favorite experiences from EQ.  I felt like a explorer who was conquering the new world.

    This would have been a much different experience had I needed permission from the group-leader to loot.  

    TLDR: I like old EQs loot system.   


    This post was edited by Greattaste at September 17, 2016 7:11 PM PDT
    • 34 posts
    September 16, 2016 3:14 PM PDT

    I would favor making as many options available (including built-in mechanics when possible, e.g. autosplitting coins) but not forced. Then simply let the players/groups/guilds decide. The desired rules players use may change or need exceptions from time to time. And if the matter of handling loot really can't be settled or there are regular conflicts, you may be in the wrong group.

    • 2138 posts
    September 17, 2016 9:43 AM PDT

    I think the auto-split of coin is a good thing to have automatically established when in a group.

    But for the gear I see- and agree with- the sides of the argument  that point out the tediousness of having tom loot the corpse and take the items instea of auto-filled in the looters bags.

    One thing I did like was that if someone looted a corpse- it would flag in chat what Item they took. This lead to some intersting scenarios with a PuG of clearly well advanced in skil players trhat would let the corpses pile up, no one looted *fidgtes*. Even nameds *fidgtes*. Untill finally one person would loot all at once during a lull and link all the items.

     

    But yes I think it is decided by group how item loot shoud be handled, and the need before greed concept I also see both sides.

    Ifdeally if an upgrade, you take it then sell your old item after the fact. or if it is not an item you can use by class or race, then you dont roll. I mean an dark myr summoner and a human summoner ar ein a group and a item for summoners drop with myr only on it. If the myr can use it and an upgrade, it goes ot them, if they pass, then- it moves ot a greed roll  and whomever was highest got it and do what they will regardless of race or class on the item.

    But yes the whiole " I can use that on my alt" never left a good taste in my mouth. It is you, not the alt. - coupled with some would create a few alts and play with themselves, and skip grouping with an odd set of classes and trying  hard things, opting instead for the safety of the self-alt group because they had a better slower. Just did not make sense to me.   


    This post was edited by Manouk at September 17, 2016 9:46 AM PDT
    • 86 posts
    September 17, 2016 12:28 PM PDT

    I believe in NBG, but that's up to the group to decide.   I hope to find some good friends in Pantheon to group with regularly to avoid pug loot problems. 

    As far as any tradeable item being considered as cash and therefore everyone needs it, I don't agree.  I prefer getting my loot the old fashioned way, from the mob's cold dead hands.  

    Uber Warrior Sword: item lore - Bought from a wizard.

    On a related note claiming need on an item and then leaving the group 5 minutes later is uncouth.

    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    September 17, 2016 2:51 PM PDT

    So is there any MMO already out that, regardless of how you feel about it in other areas, has really nailed a solid loot options interface and mechanics?  I was hoping that by 2016 this would be pretty figured out -- an interface with a set of different rules on how loot distribution works.  You join a group and that group can set up and even later change the rules.  If you don't like how they do it you find other players who view loot distribution more similarly to how you do....

    I just figured by now all of the different rules/setups that players would want to use were pretty fleshed out.  Obivously I don't have time to really dig into every MMO, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

    • 1921 posts
    September 17, 2016 3:53 PM PDT

    Aradune said:

    So is there any MMO already out that, regardless of how you feel about it in other areas, has really nailed a solid loot options interface and mechanics? ...

    Any MMO that has personal loot instead of shared loot, solves this problem.  And in addition, any that have procedurally generated loot, rather than static loot.

    So, I'll explain those terms so everyone knows what I'm talking about. (and I should note, these are what these terms mean to me, YMMV)

    Shared loot is EQ on launch day.  6+ people kill one thing.  It drops one item.  You now compete against your group, guild, or raid members to obtain said object.

    Static loot is when the Ogre Chef always drops one of two items, or just a single item. It drops either the flowing black silk scarf (haste +5%) or the giant nose-slicer 2h sword.  If you kill it, you get either one of those, at whatever percentages are defined in the loot tables.  Or it always just drops the scarf.  Kill the Chef, get the scarf, repeat as desired.

    Personal loot is, if i remember correctly, how Guild Wars 2 does it (both loot and harvest nodes).  In a group, 6 people kill something, everyone gets their own loot.  In fact, I think by default, you don't even see what other people get.  Everyones loot is simply their own.  You don't compete against your group, guild, or raid members, everyone gets a reward for thier time & effort.

    Procedural loot is generated for you and you alone.  It has less or no value to anyone else.  This type of mechanic can be tuned to the point where the loot you get is only of value to someone with your currently memorized skills or your currently equipped gear, or both.  Including both customized skills/spells and customized gear.

    Dynamic loot is slightly different than both personal loot and procedural loot, but can be implemented with those two mechanics.  It's simply not static.  It means, in a region, area, dungeon or zone, items of a certain type will drop there, but you don't always get the exact same item from the exact same creature.   The biggest difference between static and dynamic is the source of the loot, rather than the loot itself, but it can also include the loot itself.

    ---

    Arguments againts dynamic, procedural and/or personal loot typically are:

    It generates too much loot.  Nope, it doesn't have to, in fact, with appropriate percentages, it can generate LESS loot than static & shared systems.  Of course, if you provide drops on every kill, you have to balance that against their value, and consumption rates of consumables and require mats for crafting and a bunch of other systems and mechanics, but resource production isn't always a bad thing.  Just becuase you're getting salvagable material from humanoids and body parts from animals doesn't mean the economy is broken.  If all drops have zero value to NPC's, but must be salvaged, refined, repaired, or modified in some way before they have value, then giving players a cornucopia of items can drive very desirable money-sink behavior.

    It removes competition.  Yes, yes it does.  From between you and your group, guild, or raid members.  If you prefer to compete against them, rather than just help them, then you won't like these solutions.  Speaking only for myself, I'm more of a helper and less of a "stab my helpers in the back" kind of player. :)

    "You can't farm for drops" Well, yes and no.  You can't walk into a dungeon, superior invis to a static mob, kill him in one mana burn loot his static drop, and gate out while the group that's working towards him curses you.   You'll have to kill in a region, zone or area to have a chance to obtain the items you're looking for, just like everyone else.  So, yes, you can farm, but you have to invest the time.

    ---

    Given the above, my preferences have been outlined in a previous post.  I think allowing players to temporarily and permanently customize all their slots/gear and all their spells and skills in their Ability Arsenal, as well as their Iconic Ability, with appropriate caps & limits, makes sense if a design goal is to move the MMO genre forward, and offer truly innovative mechanics.  If those aren't design goals, then static loot and static spawns are all you need.  I think it would be an enormously missed opportunity, yet again, to use such a simple and crude system, by today's standards.

    • 2756 posts
    September 17, 2016 4:31 PM PDT

    I think you're right, Aradune - there's pretty much a standard set and they are 'regular' options for good reason.

    The aspects as I see them: -

    Ninja or not?
    Seems obvious to be these days that allowing anyone to loot anything is just asking for trouble. 'Sandboxey' though, isn't it? The importance is mitigated if loot goes 'to the group' somehow, but still the actual clicking has to be done and looting (depending on the mechanism) can be annoying.
    Group leader only?
    Turns: Forcing turns can easily lead to items being left behind and group disharmony.
    Free-For-All: More efficient, but depending on the allocation system, chaotic and problematic.

    Group Loot Allocation Systems
    Should loot be available only to the looter or should any looted item go "to the group" in some mechanism?  Again, the looter getting the loot is 'sandboxey' but is it asking for trouble?
    Loot notifications in chat may mitigate problems, but not solve them.
    Completely random systems can be 'unfair' - you can end up with bad distribution of loot amongst the group.  Better to have a system where loot is evenly shared?
    Round-Robin: You are awarded loot items in order of group joining time.
    Random Shared: Loot is given to each person but in a random order.
    Group looter: Loot is shared, but group leader decides order (a pain unless there's a UI for it).
    Specific items: Never seen an in-game system, but often one or more items are deemed to be ones that should be shared equally, so you would apply an allocation system just to them.

    Do you want the loot or not?
    Need/Greed/Pass: Allows people to ignore items they don't care about, express that they'd be happy to take it if noone else wants it or that they'd really like it.  If everyone presses "Need" then, at worst, this is simply 'fair'.  You are all in the group that fought for the loot.  So isn't trivial to allow people to pass if they aren't that bothered?
    Quality/Level filter: Could you elect to pass on items below a certain quality or level?

    Who shouldn't have the loot?
    It may seem fairer to have some Need Before Greed system, but should the warrior always get the sword?  What if they already have a better one?  What if they don't think theirs *is* better?  It's not simple.  Do you only allow Need press for items for your class/race/level/primary stat/whatever?

    The physicality of looting
    AoE?  Automatic?  Proximity?
    Is the act of clicking on you inventory, clicking on a corpse and dragging and dropping items from one to the other somehow necessary?  Or fun?  Or immersive?  Are the alternatives?

    Group/Individual settings
    Defaults for individuals - yes, some will set "Always Need".
    Defaults for groups - group settings override individual ("Do not allow 'Always Need' setting" etc hehe).  Clashes can be notified to group/individual on joining (or perhaps be checkable before?).

    I'm thinking of this as I type.  Wow - complicated innit?