Forums » The Paladin

What would YOU like to see from the Crusader class?

    • 1429 posts
    April 19, 2015 2:37 PM PDT

    I can see that, Singing, I can see that, it would take some getting used to, but I can see how that would work. alignment with a Province/King I think is better than - should I say more politically correct than-  deity alignment, but it gives way to a split between those who are deity aligned and those who are not and those who choose to fall away from the former deity to align with province/King yet not be called "dark". Some interesting faction/ diplomacy ideas rise up in this situation, where one crusader now serves the goblin king and if I were to enter it would be a dungeon but If I were to group with the aligned crusader, or be under his influence/spell,  it would be a trip through town where the merchants are unfair to me.

    One thing I think a crusader would have as an ability/spell would be to "burden" the enemies- from a lore perspective it would be to allow the enemy to be burdened with the realization of their iniquities to X or against Y (goblins?) that would manifest in game like a snare, strength/agility drain or general all around weakness (debuff?) that gives the crusader the home-field advantage so-to-speak. I think it would be hard to bring that home field advantage game mechanic with the crusader- unless through a diplomacy model- say into other dungeons areas unless it were to work in a way where if crusader is aligned with goblins and walks into orc territory, and orcs hate goblins, then the orc would be predisposed to be drawn to or pulled to the crusader.

    • 86 posts
    May 28, 2015 3:40 AM PDT

    Personally I'd like the Crusader to be pretty much like the older DnD ruleset Paladins. I think it'd be awesome to have some little things like CHA effecting your ability to nuke Undead and Lay Hands or something similar. Maybe make the Crusader have some responsibilities, the game Project Gorgon does this in a great way with their Druid class.

     

    Basically in Gorgon, if you are a Druid you take a commitment to preserve and defend the Natural world whenever it needs it. At random times the game can make pestilence occur in an area, or poachers can begin to endanger the existence of a species etc etc and as a Druid it's your job to deal with those problems, and until you do your part in defending Nature you cannot move forward gaining XP in your Druid abilities.(Gorgon is a bit different in that instead of classes everyone has 2 primary skills which can be anything from Druidry to being a kickass combat Cow.)

     

    I think Pantheon could take a similar idea and really run with it with a class like the Crusader especially, having Undead invasions or certain parts of the world being corrupted by a powerful Necromancer would be pretty sweet. It would really make the player not just feel like they are picking a skillset, but really taking on the responsibility of a Crusader sworn to protect the world against the evils of Necromancy and abominations like the undead.

    Mod Edit: Changes text colour from white to black so it could be read easily.


    This post was edited by Kilsin at May 15, 2016 4:14 PM PDT
    • 21 posts
    June 16, 2015 3:32 PM PDT
    Happytrees said:

    Personally I'd like the Crusader to be pretty much like the older DnD ruleset Paladins. I think it'd be awesome to have some little things like CHA effecting your ability to nuke Undead and Lay Hands or something similar. Maybe make the Crusader have some responsibilities, the game Project Gorgon does this in a great way with their Druid class.

     

    Basically in Gorgon, if you are a Druid you take a commitment to preserve and defend the Natural world whenever it needs it. At random times the game can make pestilence occur in an area, or poachers can begin to endanger the existence of a species etc etc and as a Druid it's your job to deal with those problems, and until you do your part in defending Nature you cannot move forward gaining XP in your Druid abilities.(Gorgon is a bit different in that instead of classes everyone has 2 primary skills which can be anything from Druidry to being a kickass combat Cow.)

     

    I think Pantheon could take a similar idea and really run with it with a class like the Crusader especially, having Undead invasions or certain parts of the world being corrupted by a powerful Necromancer would be pretty sweet. It would really make the player not just feel like they are picking a skillset, but really taking on the responsibility of a Crusader sworn to protect the world against the evils of Necromancy and abominations like the undead.

     

    That is a good idea. I love the gameplay in Project Gorgon. It's really a great game.

    Mod Edit: Changed quote text colour from white to black for easier reading.


    This post was edited by Kilsin at May 15, 2016 4:15 PM PDT
    • 357 posts
    September 20, 2015 2:02 PM PDT

    if the crusader is aligned with a king, then i think it should be a class of stuns, interrupts, and war shouts. maybe have a passive leadership ability that gives a buff to the group automatically based on skill level as long as the crusader is leading the group.

     

    war shouts would be buffs that last for 15-30sec and not count against the total number of buffs allowed on a character.

     

    maybe have some anti undead abilities. but healing and the like should be relegated to clergy. honestly i hardly ever healed myself on any paladin except LoH sometimes. i think heals should be left to healers. even LoH

     

    • 258 posts
    October 8, 2015 10:02 AM PDT
    Happytrees said:

    Personally I'd like the Crusader to be pretty much like the older DnD ruleset Paladins. I think it'd be awesome to have some little things like CHA effecting your ability to nuke Undead and Lay Hands or something similar. Maybe make the Crusader have some responsibilities, the game Project Gorgon does this in a great way with their Druid class.

     

    Basically in Gorgon, if you are a Druid you take a commitment to preserve and defend the Natural world whenever it needs it. At random times the game can make pestilence occur in an area, or poachers can begin to endanger the existence of a species etc etc and as a Druid it's your job to deal with those problems, and until you do your part in defending Nature you cannot move forward gaining XP in your Druid abilities.(Gorgon is a bit different in that instead of classes everyone has 2 primary skills which can be anything from Druidry to being a kickass combat Cow.)

     

    I think Pantheon could take a similar idea and really run with it with a class like the Crusader especially, having Undead invasions or certain parts of the world being corrupted by a powerful Necromancer would be pretty sweet. It would really make the player not just feel like they are picking a skillset, but really taking on the responsibility of a Crusader sworn to protect the world against the evils of Necromancy and abominations like the undead.

    Responsibility.  That is the key part.  How this occurs is secondary to me.  Understanding that by picking this class, you have responsibility to perform a specific task (tanking, killing undead, etc) and perform it well.  This the ONE THING your class is designed to do very well and it is incumbent upon the player to execute.  Great post, I like this a lot.

    • 87 posts
    November 2, 2015 1:43 AM PST

    Dekaden said:

    This the ONE THING your class is designed to do very well and it is incumbent upon the player to execute.  Great post, I like this a lot.

    While note distinctly Crusader focussed the idea of having Class specific responsibilites that are tied to the devlopment of core class skills is very intirguing.  I love the idea that there are responsibiities in the form of class quests/challenges that could occur sporadically and in any zone. two thumbs up 

    • 309 posts
    December 13, 2015 8:24 AM PST

    Well it has been awhile since this topic has been touched but the "holy warrior" type characters are the ones that I enjoy most but the classical paladin is not my forte. I am not a tank. Now, I know alot of people here are already assuming this is just an EQ paladin reincranation but I don't think so. Back in an older interview, Brad was talking gear and mentioned seeing a Crusader walking by in awesome platemail and a massive two handed sword. Yes, he could have just been using it as an example because it was the first thing that came to mind or hte design of the class might have changed since then since this was prior to the Kickstarter, but for arugments sake I am going to assume the aforementioned is possible.

    I want to see the Crusader with a two handed weapon and having a utility role if specced for it. Similar to how paladins were in Dark Age of Camelot where they could do moderate DPS but that isnt why a group brought them along. They brought them along for the chants. A paladin in DAoC could run a chant that gave special bonuses to everyone in the group based on the chant that he was saying at the time. It could be minor health return whenever you hit an enemy, resource return, pure damage chant, etc.

    I am going to assume that they will have a tanking type role if they equip a sword and board but I would also love to see a more group utility style DPS if you equiped a two handed weapon. My two cents.


    This post was edited by Aggelos at December 13, 2015 11:30 AM PST
    • 87 posts
    December 21, 2015 5:50 PM PST

    The Paladin in wow had the 'Hand' abilities - 

    freedom - used to free from snares of or provide immunity to snare for a period

    sacrifice - absorb some % of dmg from target

    protection - mitigate all incoming physical dmg but prevents taregt from attacking 

    salvation - reduces target threat by % per second

    overtime in Wow these abilities became useless as the game play became so homogenized.  While noting we do not want to copy i think the idea is good and adds good utility.  I could imagine our glass connons loving the crusader for nicely timed salvation type spells.

    I would also like to see these holy warriors  bring good utility against undead.  This could be:

    • simple % increase to dmg - translating into threat for Crusader tanks.
    • turning undead
    • raid/group wide auras in holy sites - protection/dmg mitigation or resist increase or increased dps in undead invested ares tombs and the like.

    I think other stun type abilities against undead as well.

    obvioulsy i am looking at them very much in the line of holy warrior undead bane :) 

     


    This post was edited by Narben4 at December 21, 2015 5:51 PM PST
    • 24 posts
    December 27, 2015 7:11 PM PST

    Personally i would like to see more of a roll like warhammer age of reckoning, just a bit more advanced.  Your required to jump into the fray, with your single handed battlehammer, and some off hand item.  whether that be a shield, holy tome, off hand weapon (mace, club, flail type deal).  As you hit your enemies you build a pool from which you can cast from.  There should be multiple specs, such as defensive spec (shield implementation, also shield dmg abilities), Buff ability line (weather thats in the form of chants, or spells that buff or morale type abilities), debuff ability line, and a heal line.  It would be nice to see being able to spec between them as you see fit.

    This would encompass all the rolls anyone could want to play with a crusader.  You could play one as evil or good.  Of course balance would have to be there, the added utlitiy of this class would mean it couldnt be the best straight up tank, or best straight up healer, or best straight up debuffer. 

    There is nothing more righteous and awesome, than a crusader charging into battle, regardless of its role.  They are frontline warriors at the forefront, be it with whatever utility they please.

    • 708 posts
    January 16, 2016 9:52 PM PST

    I really like the faction idea and would like to see something built off of that. Since we do not have the Paladin class, at least not yet we do, the crusader could fill that void of the tank class being strong vs undead. But instead of being strong vs undead we could use the faction idea and the player could build faction with a certain subgroup of people and depending on that faction the Crusader becomes very strong vs a certain group of enemies. This way you could pick a faction that you know will benefit you most rather than waiting to venture to an undead zone just to use your strong abilities. (though VG handled this VERY well and allowed the Necro to turn mobs into undead which was a great ability).

    I also like when Paladins have some support skills like auras. So I think it would be cool for the Crusader to utilize auras in some manner. Maybe a system where the Crusader collects pages for a tome where each page profices a different benefit. The player could only have one aura active at a time but with this tome they could build their aura up to do a few different things. They could add what pages they want, maybe collect diagrams that amplify the benefits, then cast the aura and continue on their journey. Either way, I want friggin auras lol!

    • 466 posts
    February 3, 2016 8:44 AM PST

    I have always liked the Crusader/Paladin to be an Offtank/ Group main tank.  Give the crusader a good range of offensive defesnsive and helpful abilitys.  Something like Lay of hands a small group heal a small self heal and like a ward.  Also the ability to off tank high level raid mobs with a good Aggro ability and extra damage spells that hit undead or pure evil for mroe damage.

     

    I feel EQ2 had a very useful paladin when played right.  It might be a hard class to play and never be the top of parse or a main tank but you have uses if played well.  Master of none but proficent in all. 

    • 273 posts
    March 11, 2016 5:57 PM PST

    I would like to see him as an option to be a main tank with defensive group buffs and debuff removal spells.  On top of that, he should be able to spot heal, not as a main healer, but as a support healer.  IE increases heal % on defensive targets, group flash heals, and cleansing mechanics.  Large direct heals would be ok if you had to commit to it to be successful.  Such as wearing cloth armors with MP boosting stats because heavy armors stats dont give enough mana to maintain difficult pulls.  

     

    I think it was D&D 3rd gen rules where you could choose your racial enemy.  I would consider a return to that where you could choose a racial, class, or faction enemy by completing a kill quest (or killed by quest).  Being a forced undead enemy makes sense, but what if I hated all necromancers instead?

     

    My first choice in Pantheon is definately a Crusader(halfling if they have it)! 

    • 90 posts
    April 29, 2016 9:58 PM PDT

    In 1999 after rolling coutless paladins in AD&D with my friends, Greg and a few of us played for 7 years as offen as we could get together and play! Greg got a little game called EverQuest. He had been playing it for some time and told use we are dumb if we dont get it! I had a computer but needed to save up some money to purchase the game, as monster manuals and such things for AD&D are not just given away! I rolled a high elf. It felt a little odd not rolling a human as humans are the only race in AD&D that are able to be paladins back then. Greg knew me well enough to know what class I was going to roll. I told him you can count on me to always be predictable and we all know paladins are the best class anyway!? He laughed. So I took her (Leownia) through 4 guilds on 3 different servers and though all solo, group, raid and beta raid content up til 2012 or so with friends irl and even those made along the way! We had met some pretty impressive, great and genuine core group of people! For sevral years Magelo showed class stat standings and it showed  Leownia as being one of the top 5 of paladins for server wide stats and at offen times number 1 or 2. She was hand crafted and tailored made forged with profection being the goal, right down to the customizable old UI default in the shape of a helmet if you were looking outward and with 21,000 AA's she was top tier. Sounds like gloating doesnt it? Well that is because I am gloating! Every peice of armor crafted, every weapon wielded, every cliky farmed or edified gear Leownia obtained was from the direct results and efferts of kindred people in the game from those whom I would do the samethings for! I cherised, protected and died along side, sorry about the 90% rezz's! (>.<) I feel I was able to master my class completly because of my friends and through the adventure, the chellenges, the experiences, the honor, the loyalty, the humility( innumerable fizzles and raid wipes and coutless hours of medding mana), the sacrifices(passing loot to newer ungeared members or back flaging so we could move forward), the undying friendships forged, the encouragement and support from the loyal community and guilds even against sometimes very broken odds "we" previaled, never willing to give up! It made for the greatest meanful memorys, achievements and accomplishments one could ever obtain or hope for in a MMORPG. Never in a thousand years would I have thought a game like EQ could given me so much fulfilling enjoyment and I'd do it all over again!!1 and actually P99 has another paladin of mine.

     

      I ask for a paladin worthy of wisdom, honorable in heart and deed with a pure unquinchable courageous love for truth and justice that can meet, withstand and overcome with brilliant burning firey light any evil that might be in any form, size or place and if able may we get that with a humble white steed in a few expansions a ways down the road! 


    This post was edited by Leowna at May 2, 2016 11:12 PM PDT
    • 64 posts
    May 15, 2016 12:53 PM PDT

    I've played Paladins in pretty much every major Western MMORPG since I started playing EQ in 2000.  Played EQ for eight years total in the end and I've always played a Paladin.  IMO no other game was as successful with the idea of a Holy Warrior as the original Everquest.  It's been the standard by which all other Paladins have been gauged.

     

    That being said I think there were some issues with the Paladin in EQ because it ultimately didn't have a dedicated role.  I could tank, but I was never as good as a warrior.  I could pull, but never as good as a monk or SK.  I could heal, but never as good as a druid.  I could damage, but never as good as the other melee classes.  In the end I brought a lot of usefulness to a group but could always be replaced with some other class that was tuned better.

     

    So how do I think a Crusader should be balanced?

    First and foremost it needs to have a primary role.  All other secondary options should not replace or negate the primary role.  Since a Crusader is a knight then I think the primary role should be tank.  No matter if you are talking group content, solo, or raid the Crusader needs to be able to fill the role of main tank or off tank.  In EQ Paladins had that role until defensive came out and Warriors became the only real option for tanking for difficult content.  Knights could tank once gearing occured but Warriors were a requirement for progession and that is something that should never happen again.

     

    If tanking becomes the role of the Crusader then the next question is what skills and abilities should be added to augment tanking?  Since Crusaders are based on clerics the obvious answer is healing.  Which is something I loved in EQ when the fast heals were given to Paladins.  The heals provided depth and secondary roles when enough tanks were present or when acting as an off tank.  The heals combined with stuns allowed the Paladin to be the best bodygaurd in the game.  Which is something I really enjoyed.  So fast heals, group HoT perhaps, and buffing similar to clerics.  Lay hands has to be inlcuded I think based on the history of the Crusader/Paladin concept.

     

    So primary role of tanking, secondary role of healing.  What's left?  I think at this point the Crusader should be about utility.  Roots, undead, smite, imbued weapons, steed, buffs, and cures.  These are all things players expect to be in the holy warrior class. 

     

    What about stuns though?  The stun component was a huge part of the Paladin in EQ, but I think in the end the power of stun actually forced Paladins to be weaker instead of stronger.  I say this becasue the ability to stun lock a mob became overpowered which resulted in stuns being toned down and other abilities being denied Paladins because they could stun.  So instead of stuns I think the Crusader should get some kind of disorient.  This would weaken a mob and slow it's attacks without actually causing it to stop.  High agro associated with the disorient to allow the Crusader to act as a bodyguard or to hold agro in a unique way.

     

    In the end I picture the Crusader with the same tanking ability as all other tanks, healing as the secondary ability/role, utility spells to provide versatility, and a disorient as the class unique ability.  This would synergize well with other tanks assuming Warriors are tanks, group buffs as secondary, and damage instead of versatility.  Dire Lords would also be tanks, secondary role of spell damage, pet instead of verstatility.  Warriors would be the middle of the road tank, Crusaders the defensive heavy tanks, DLs the offensive heavy tanks.  A group would pick the tank based on other classes or content while a raid could swap out any of the three with no problems.

    • 90 posts
    May 15, 2016 10:46 PM PDT

      I believe the EQ paladin role was very defined in the multitude of our weaknesses. Yes the paladin was weaker in healing, tanking, curing, buffing, dmg and pulling in comparison to the other classes of those professions. I think they did a very good job of balancing this. Keeping us not to far behind the pure or core classes we were composed of. Being a hybrid to me is just that. The paladin had the correct ablilitys to be able to do all of these things and to me that was the dedicated role. There was really no other class that could do what the paladin did as well as the paladin could do it. That is if the person playing the paladin had the wisdom and skill needed to play the class well to be effective in the situation or setting. By being the jack of all trades and a master of none made us to be the most flexible fitting component of a group and or raid by adding that extra supportive healing and or damage or what ever the situation required of us. Curing, battle rezzing, kiting or buffing we had a little of it all! In genral I didnt feel the paladin class was over or under powered it was balanced just right for me. Even though when I played my paladin I was overpowered! MUHAHAHA! I got out of the paladin class what I put into the class by learning as I developed and progressed in the game. Trying new or different ways to cast or use abilitys in the most mana efficient way while maintaining aggro. A well played paladin could step into nearly any role in support of another critically needed role. Building secondary aggro and being ready to step in an instant if or when the warrior tank rotation got thin or completly caved in. Grabing amd picking up adds that came into play instantly with break neck snap aggro speed like unto what we had in EQ. I loved that the paladin was a chellenging, fun and that it required a higher level of skill to play. It was a class that was ver rewarding for me to play. Even with all the best gear Norrath had to offer really didnt matter if you didnt utilize the ablilitys along with having the alert responsivness to react in the time needed to keep your healer, slower or other suportive allies alive and safe. Id rather have living allies than gear and I really like gear!

      The stun was a great ability and fit the class well I belive it was kept in check for the most part. It wasnt absolute in effectivness landing on all levels or all creature types or it wasnt unuseful even if resisted you would still get the aggro from it or it would stop a casting spell from completing. At lower levels it simply stopped the creature briefly and at higher levels it would hit them so hard it would do damage aswell perhaps push the creature back even which was great for annoying most rogues or other melee combatants haha!.. =/. I liked how they developed the stun to allow more of an indepth thought process. For exsample you dont want to wake an enchanters mezzed mob but need to move it or establish a higher aggro before awakening it. So we could do just that it was a nice situational spin for what we needed to do and there again you needed to know what stuns had which augmented ablility and use it as needed. Not just because its up to use to spam mash buttons. It had a real reason and many uses.

      From what Ive read I can see great care is being taken here when considering what classes can proform the same role(s) if at all. Im very glad that they are prudently making these decisions. I really dont want to be able to do what the warrior does entirly and I dont want them to do what the knight can do. I believe that is when we start asking ourselfs why am I this class or that class. The more the knight asks to do the things of a warriors job will make it less appealing for the warrior to be a warrior and vice versa. There needs to be distinct differences for each class to have its own unique feel and mechanical exsperiences. I not saying some overlay is a breaking game type of deal. I do hope to be able to effectivly tank a raid level type of mob only if and when the life is beaten completly out of the main tank class and then a ranger or two for a split faction of a faction of a second in ToTT X_X and then the knight with some sort of an emergency long-term  cool down type of getting use hopfully through to the end of the encounter or at least long enough for a warrior to get back on thier feet type of abilitly mechanic thing! Giving warriors and knights the same equal ability to tank would not make the classes diverse enough for me by merely just giving them some variation of utility

      Im a fan of D&D and loved the rolling stats part of beginning a character you wouldnt have to use it soloy to the rules of D&D to alter it you could roll each stat then allow x number of atribute points for the person to spend that likes to customize somewhat. This idea probably has some holes in it im sure but could work given the fact that there are some great minds working on this game!

     


    This post was edited by Leowna at May 15, 2016 10:47 PM PDT
    • 64 posts
    May 16, 2016 7:01 AM PDT

    Leowna,

    You present some great points and I really enjoyed some good memories of my time playing a Paladin similar to your experiences.  However I think you summed the class up quite well when you said Paladins were defined by their weaknesses.  Paladins had to find a way to contribute and be useful because they were not the best choice for anything.  Reworded this means Paladins didn't have a specific role but instead migrated around to what was available instead of being desired to fill a specific slot.

    Paladins who were overgeared for content or had a group of friends could find employment, but there was not much of a role when working to break into new content or trying to be in a group for challenging content.  At that point the weaknesses of the Paladin were enough to cause groups/raids to push them to the side in favor of a stronger class.

    So how does that translate to Crusaders?  I think the tanks all have to be equally capable of tanking.  Mitigation, avoidance, and aggro generation have to be within a few % points of each other in order for all of the tanks to be competitive.  If Warriors are made the best tank in the game then the Knights will once again be forced to be off-tanks or backup healers for cutting edge content and only used to main tank once the raids/zones have been put on farm status.

    I'm not saying all of the tank classes should tank in the exact same way, only that they have to have the same relative performance. 

    In fact the bulk of the class flavor should not actually be tanking but instead it should be the utility you talked about.  A Crusader should be have a lot of utility simply because the secondary role of healer is pure support.  Healing alone isn't enough though so things like CC (root, stuns, knockbacks, etc), buffs, undead capabilities, and res should all be included.  This provides plenty of options for the Crusader to set themselves apart while at the same time always having a primary role they can always fill if needed.

    Please note I'm not against stuns, but I'm aware of some of the big problems stun caused.  Paladins were able to completely out agro all other classes with the original stun mechanics and this took years to correct.  Eventually Paladins were surpassed in agro generation by SKs even because of the problems with stun.  Any stuns Crusaders get need to be separate and apart from the agro mechanic.  I would love to see all of the utility and usefulness of well timed stuns but without any of the ties to agro. 

    At the same time I think making a copy of the EQ Paladin isn't necessarily the best route so some other mechanics could be added. Sacrifice tanking, disorients, agro shackle, and seraphim pets are all ideas which could be used to expand Crusaders in ways Paladins couldn't be steered.

     

    There is a lot of room to work with in a new game, I just hope the devs realize every class has to have a primary role it is capable of filling and then flesh out that role with unique mechanics while providing a worthwhile secondary role.

    • 327 posts
    May 17, 2016 1:00 PM PDT

    Preface - I didn't play an eq pally, my experience is from WoW and being a cleric tank in Rift.

    In terms of crusaders tanking I feel the same way I do about druids/shamans healing. In a normal group/camp/whatever a hybrid tank should be just as effective. This way you shouldn't see people ignoring the non-warrior tanks in groups.

    As far as raids go, I have mixed feelings I guess. The mental image of a paladin/crusader wielding a massive shield makes me want them to be able to take hard hitting physical attacks best, but they're also magic users so there's maybe some style conflict there. Big shields can also play to the Furious Bash mechanic they added in PoP. I thought that was a great bonus to help tanks use shields instead of 2h or DW for the damage based threat. I agree that hybrid tanks shouldn't be forced to only offtank early on, or ever.

    The stuns being a major threat in EQ for pallies was fairly useful imo, but resists and immunities hurt it of course. Crusaders getting great stuns is a mechanic I'm fine with (especially if the whole bigass shield thing happens and there's a bash/slam skill) as long as a stun spell isn't their main source of agro. Threat from a useful spell (maybe it can interrupt on immune?) is good, but having to waste mana on a stun-immune mob instead of using a damaging threat spell or so is a shame. Also having stuns generate rediculous amounts of agro hinders a crusader using them when they are not the MT in a group.

    Since the two games I played a holy tank in had specs I can't really comment on crusader heal/dps capabilities except that they should have decent dps but I'd rather not see crusaders keeping groups alive as the healer.

     

    • 90 posts
    May 17, 2016 1:35 PM PDT
    You have some decent points of view I liked reading them thank you for sharing them... perhaps a proc of furious bash could hit 2 or 3 times and could perhaps be augmented to crit if the skill is mastered! Idk anyway i like your thoughts
    • 327 posts
    May 18, 2016 8:00 AM PDT

    Leowna, you must work with kids lol. Your posts are too kind and acknowledging for the internet :P

    For proc based shield stuff my mind goes to the Holy Shield spell in WoW where you reflected damage on block. Part of why I like that sort of skill is that it doesn't cause threat (read: useless) if you aren't currently tanking. That gives a little bit of forgiveness if you accidentally hit a spell you keep on your bar for "oh ****" moments. It was also great for building agro on groups of mobs without having to worry about breaking CC on accident when CC landed. It was something like a 6s-10s buff with 20s+ recast iirc so you couldn't just spam it. The block % mod was nice, but who knows if Panth will have decent mods like that. The mod was more useful during leveling before you got higher end gear/stats and didn't need the spell as much. The possibility of blocking spells was also interesting. Also iirc you blocked a specific amount of damage and not the full hit (unless it was <= block amount of course) so blocking more often and blocking spells wasn't as crazy as it sounds.

    Obviously the main downside to an ability like that is that it pretty much kills the need for multi-mob control skills. But if the spell were a single target spell with a 30s+ recast, a short (<10s) duration, and only on 1 target at a time then you'd go back to needing to carefully pick your target for the spell.

    • 6 posts
    May 25, 2016 6:35 PM PDT

    I played a paladin in original EQ and I always thought it was a shame that my toon didn't have a bonus for defensive actions. I figured as a knight, defending the weak in the name of your god was sort of the goal. As such, you get a defensive or armor class bonus. Additionally, I like the idea of having something you tank better than anything else. Undead, or something your god might consider an 'abomination'. Continuing on the whole "crusader of God" theme, being able to call down the power of your diety in the form of weapon procs and stuns is nice. Someone mentioned having to heal or otherwise care for the environment in order to proceed, or for certain skills or spell lines would be neat.

     

    I am looking forward to alpha and beta to try out the various classes. I have a lot of hope and faith in Brad and his vision.

     

    • 193 posts
    June 13, 2016 8:08 PM PDT

    I was really underwhelmed by the Paladin class in EverQuest.  I played one from 1999-2002 and felt like I never had a well defined role in a group.  Buffs were worthless with a cleric in the group.  Root and off tanking weren't needed if you had crowd control. Sure you could pull aggro off a warrior but why would you want to?

     

    I believe I was most effective against casters but if a group had a choice between a warrior and a paladin they would typically choose a warrior.  But this is also a problem typical of tank classes, where you really only need one in a group.  I would like to see a group able to have 2 tanks and not be handicapped.


    This post was edited by Thanakos at June 13, 2016 8:10 PM PDT
    • 115 posts
    September 13, 2016 8:16 AM PDT

    I've always played paladin-type characters in any game I've played, including my main in EQ for eight years (2000-08). I love the idea of being a defender of whatever god/goddess/cause they've set their path toward. (I've always said the difference between a warrior and a paladin and a warrior -- especially in EQ terms -- is a warrior is an offensive tank and a paladin is a defensive tank.) I also like the idea of hybrid classes, and the fact that they can be useful in more than one area (tank/healer) while not being the best at either.

    The one thing that got me in EQ was that the paladin's opposite number -- the Shadow Knight -- was an all-around bad-ass character. By happenstance of the characters it was a hybrid of, the Shadow Knight was superior to the paladin. I thought they should have been equal to each other in some way or form. The paladin didn't really have that *one* thing that it could do better than any other class or anything that made it stand out. If I could pick one thing for the crusader to excel in without it becoming overpowered for a hybrid, it would be making it the best undead fighter in the game. That way, a paladin could be the best choice in, say, 25 percent of situations (using a guess as to how many creatures in a game are living/elemental vs. undead), but still second fiddle when it comes to tanking or healing.

    And I know this sounds strange, but I loved the ability to stun as an EQ paladin. From quick-hit spells to bashing, I always felt that if I couldn't take a big hit from a spell or make the big heal after a big spell, I could stop the spell before it ever got a chance to do damage. It fits into the defenisve motiff.

    So I'd like to see a Pantheon crusader be a defensive tank that excels in stunning and fighting undead.

    • 327 posts
    September 13, 2016 9:12 AM PDT

    I mostly agree with you Lghtngfan. The lack of undead was a shame even though zone wise it made sense. It made a line of spells kinda useless though.

    Paladin buffs (group and self) were certainly better than SKs' (recourse only right?) and there was the paladin group heal line iirc. I forget if SKs had a self damage mitigation line too, but that helped.

    Where I agree that SKs seemed more "badass" was the dps output. Their lack of group spell utility was more than made up for by their dps output in your average exp grind imo. Paladins had that weapon proc and whatnot, but I still feel like SKs put out more dps which also lead to soloing being viable. I can't remember passing up one tank class for another, simply because we wanted to play and not sit around. However! Multiple SKs in a group could cover tank and DPS roles whereas multiple paladins (or just a dps paladin) wasn't always a great move depending on their gear.

    So I certainly hope they take dps output into account when designing how well each of the hybrid tanks take dmg. Heal & buff output obviously matter, but the heals are only but so useful especially if you have a good MH (and/or OH) and as camps become more trivial. Buffs, we don't know how those will be for each so I'll leave that alone. I do want each class to be viable as a tank (in their own style) and a medeocre dps slot too (at whatever capability they design). This helps the class group easier, fill OT spots if it helps at certain camps for certain pulls/mobs/not amazing gear on MT, and it allows for when the MT leaves that you can swap the crusader/DL to tanking. This way two crus, two dl, or one of each doesn't feel like you are simply filling the slot instead waiting for a far better option.

    Hopefully that makes some sense and not simply a wall of poor writing haha.

    • 64 posts
    September 13, 2016 12:18 PM PDT

    I am not a fan of the idea of making Crusader's excel at undead killing without some way to garauntee undead are always going to be around to kill.  Excelling at only 25% of the content is a good way of having a class be mediocre or a poor performer.  

    Instead I think Crusader's should be tanks focused on advanced defense techniques.  Maybe Crusader's are the best at keeping their party safe so they work well with caster centric groups.  Maybe Crusader's have several options for weakening the mobs to make them less of a threat to the group.  The main consideration needs to be how to make Crusader's as popular as the rest of the tank classes.  Yes it's difficult to balance a hybrid class, but the first step is being acknowledging that hybrids need to be just as popular and useful as non-hybrid classes.

     

    • 270 posts
    September 13, 2016 7:16 PM PDT
    Here's a hot take....
    make the warrior the middle ground tank. Decent at holding aggro, decent dps, minimal support skills outside of tanking. Your standard every day tank.

    Crusader would be heavy armor, heavy weapons, defense based tank. Some defensive buffs/support skills. Low dps. Most hp. Slow but powerful. I picture a knight in full plate with a 2hander.
    Dire lord would be best dps, with DoT' s and debuffs/slow, lowest hp of 3, no defensive skills. Can tank if needed but not as good as others.
    My only issue with this is that warriors may feel undergunned Maybe not if theyre able to balance skills well