Forums » The Enchanter

Illusions

    • 11 posts
    August 23, 2016 9:59 AM PDT

    If Pantheon has illusions like EQ it would be nice to look into the way the buffs are handled. ie: Troll has a little bit of hp regen.

    One thing I really want is when you zone to have the illusion persist please.

    • 145 posts
    August 23, 2016 1:45 PM PDT

    I agree!! It’s important to get Illusions right for Enchanters; I was always bothered in EQ how Enchanter Illusions were rather useless (Some of the time). I think nothing should be off limits to Enchanters when using Illusions. Here are my thoughts on what I would like to see from Illusions:

    Animal Life   -

    o   Wolf’s – Speed buff as well as limited tracking

    o   Bird’s – Eagle\Hawk Ability to fly for limited amounts of time, this could be used for scouting purposes or limited fast travel.

    o   Aquatic Life - Fish\Seals\Dolphin...etc... Ability to Swim very fast and breath under water

     

    Humanoid –

    o   Use an Illusion based on a certain race you gain automatic faction to them while using the Illusion.

    o   Race based Illusions should provide limited race bonuses such as Troll Regen Ability, Elf Hide Ability, Ogre No-Stun Ability…etc…etc…

    o   Religion or Deity based quests should be available to Enchanters if they assume certain Races as an Illusion

     

    Objects –

    o   Ability to turn into any random object within a zone which most mobs can’t see through (no agro). This would be useful for scouting or hiding.

    o   Perhaps the group I’m in is in a deep dungeon and we ran out of torches or a light source, but I morph into a wall torch to provide a light source or some other mechanic.

     

    I would like for Enchanters to be more than what they were in past games, and adding Illusions that could add\assist a group to progress through a Dungeon or Group encounter adds value to the class. If I’m in a PUG and we can’t find a Monk or Rogue to add to the group the Enchanter should be able to fit in the role as a scout or puller.

     

    Rint

    • 237 posts
    August 23, 2016 6:26 PM PDT

    I strongly believe that illusions should not buff at all, regardless of the form, for a few of reasons.

    1. This would wash down an enchanter's role by diluting it with too many options. It could also make another class less effecting by leaking into its role.
    2. There would be a huge break in immersion if a whole group was transformed into bears for strength, for examaple, while exploring a temple. Also, if everyone was tranformed constantly, there would be a fissure in a player's ability to identify with his character if all personalization is gone due to everyone being an illusion.
    3. It is violates what the spell is at its core - an illusion! If I dress like a shark to fool someone at SeaWorld, I still can't breath underwater.

    I suspect illusions will play a much bigger role in Pantheon than everquest. Illusions will be a significant way for enchanters to enable players to interact with and manipulate the faction dynamics of the game - which I'm hoping is really advanced. I think it should be used for PvE disception (or even PvP).


    This post was edited by Syntro at September 12, 2016 3:44 PM PDT
    • 145 posts
    August 24, 2016 7:49 AM PDT

    Interesting feedback Syntro. However, I disagree with a few of your statements. As an example, if an Enchanter has an Illusion Spell that grants him certain abilities of other classes/races I don’t believe it will water them down. If anything it just adds more strategic options to the group, as an example in EQ a Bard was a kind of “Jack of All Trades, but Master of None” and they were able to pitch-in as needed for various roles as needed.

    They (Bards) were not close to being as good as a primary class but they offered just enough to help a group squeak-by until they could acquire a primary class player to add to the group. I feel to expand on Enchanters that we need to provide this type of usefulness to the group, their past roles of being the primary CC is quite boring and as they say so “last year”. It’s time to evolve the class or at the very least start using them as they are portrayed in D&D games.

    I believe that an Enchanters role adds to the immersion of the game by doing the impossible, such as adding Illusions to other players as you pointed out a Bunch of Bears that grant a minor stat or ability gain. If I was in a group and the Enchanter said to the group “Listen, I’m going to cast Sneaky Bear Illusion on all of you so that we can gain the faction and appearance of the Bears in this cave that will allow us to navigate through them to get to the other area without conflict” I would be all over that with a big fat “Hell-Yes”. However, I understand how this could trivialize content that is meant to be engaged, so I counter this with making Illusions unstable and unpredictable on when they expire, it could be the full 3 minutes or just 11 seconds.

    Using Illusions should bring risk and anxiety to the group as they use them, and no Illusion should be guaranteed to work all the time. Your example of a Shark Illusion not being able to breathe underwater is why I stated that there should be some stats or abilities that are gained by the players who use the illusions, if I turn into a Shark I should be able to swim faster and not need to breathe oxygen. However, if Illusions are unstable and can revert me back to my original form at any time I will be cautious in its use, as a Shark if I decide to explore the depths of the River, Ocean. Or Lakes and I swim to far down and my Illusion expires on me I have to hope I have enough time to make it back to the top of the water or I’m going to die. This to me adds to the immersion!

    Rint

     


    This post was edited by Rint at August 24, 2016 7:50 AM PDT
    • 237 posts
    August 24, 2016 9:48 AM PDT

    Rint said:

    their past roles of being the primary CC is quite boring and as they say so “last year”. It’s time to evolve the class or at the very least start using them as they are portrayed in D&D games.


    Haha, the "last year" bit made me laugh. Don't you think that this urge to evolve by adding functionality is what caused the blurry class lines we see in modern MMOs which begins to errode the need for grouping?

    Rint said:

    if I turn into a Shark I should be able to swim faster and not need to breathe oxygen.



    Ah, here we have a breakdown in our understanding of the fundamental nature of an illusion. For me, what you are describing is a transformation - something like a Druid's bear form where the physiology of the caster is actually changing. I interpret an illusion to be an optical facade for the purpose of deception, a magically ellaborate "smoke and mirrors" if you will. 

    I can definitely appreciate your side of the discussion though. I think Enchanter should avoid being "last year (haha)" too, but I believe they are already equipped to do so. I would like to compliment your thought flow by suggesting that functionalizing illusions to be extremely useful in Pantheon, as opposed to just fun in EQ1, via their impactful interaction with the faction system, lore, and NPCs would be bringing the Enchanter to his/her "next level" without introducing the possibility of class role leakage.

    Great discussion here. I hope a dev pops in and throws their 2 copper pieces in if they can. The enchanter class hold a very special place in my heart.

    • 75 posts
    August 24, 2016 10:36 AM PDT

    I know that it may have changed since I stopped playing EQ1, which was a couple of expansions after PoP, however I distinctly remember illusions having both faction (racial) as well as functional effects in the early game.  As a High Elf enchanter, I needed to get into Neriak for some reason (it may have been a spell) so I had to Illusion: Dark Elf through the place.  As an example of the minor functional effects, water elemental gained Enduring Breath, air elemental gained Levitate, fire elemental gained a minor damage shield, Troll gained a very minor HP regen bonus, Dark Elf gained Ultravision, etc.  

    None of it was gamebreaking, in fact most of it was an effect that we could cast on ourselves via different spells.  But the effects were cool and useful additions to the illusions.  

     

    Syntro, your definition of an illusion fits my definition of an optical illusion.  While it is a correct definition, I see Enchanter illusions to go more along with this definition: "a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses." As I see it, having the ability to act/move/etc similarly to the entity you are trying to appear as fits into that definition. I don't see why illusions should not give you 'some' of the benefit of the form that you are taking.  It just serves to make the illusion more complete.  All of the benefit...no.  As an example, if a druid can shapeshift into a fish and swim through the water quickly with no need to breathe, maybe the enchanter should gain the EB but only a minor speed increase if any.  Because yes, it is an illusion, not a transformation.

     

    That being said, I'm not sure about the topic of casting illusions on the rest of the group...if they have any type of substantial effect, I could see it being unbalanced.  I *think* there was an AA in EQ to cast an illusion upon one other person that had a pretty long cooldown.  But...it has been several years, and that might just be be my wishful thinking.  However, if we are to be able to cast illusions upon others, my opinion is that it should be on one person, for a limited time, with a large cooldown.  I don't really see the need for a full of fire elementals running around the lowbie zones killing things with damage shields, however if I can walk blazenly through an enemy city to complete a quest, there isn't any reason that I shouldn't be able to allow someone else to do the same once every day or so.

    • 237 posts
    August 24, 2016 1:59 PM PDT

    Irriaden said:

     I see Enchanter illusions to go more along with this definition: "a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses." As I see it, having the ability to act/move/etc similarly to the entity you are trying to appear as fits into that definition. 



    I actually think your definition doesn't allow for speed/other bonuses! Haha, allow me to open the gates of metaphysics/physics here. The perception of the illusion is in the "eye of the beholder", i.e. the person viewing the illusion. The frame of reference of the illusion is the caster. He/she knows what is reality and what is not by design. If the reality frame experiences a boost in speed, it is no longer an illusion because the reality frame itself is being accelerated! A workaround is to allow the caster to trick himself into thinking he is faster, but that experience would require the enchanter to view everything else in slow-mo because the reality frames max velocity must be constant if we are isolating the interpretations of buffs and illusions! An observer of this would probably just see a very delayed enchanter whose eyes only pick up every 10th incoming frame. The other senses; taste, smell, touch, and sound are irrelevant to speed in this example because a measurement in speed requires the observation of an object travelling between different locations given a certain time. 

    Love this discussion. Let me know what you think. :)


    This post was edited by Syntro at August 24, 2016 2:02 PM PDT
    • 75 posts
    August 24, 2016 4:15 PM PDT

    Well, when you put it that way....you may well have a point, at least when it comes to any illusions having to do with speed!  I agree that, when you approach it from this direction, that it would move out of the realm of illusion.  However, just for the sake of arguement (I don't expect or want this to make it into Pantheon, it is just where my mind went), what if you change the shift in frame of reference to the observers of the enchanter rather than the enchanter himself?  This is more in line with the mind-altering abilities of the enchanter (such as mez/paci), and you could say that he is altering the minds of his observers so it appears that he is moving faster.  Of course, this would be like a universal slow/snare to everyone but the enchanter, but theoretically within a very powerful enchanter's mind altering capabilities.  Even if this feature was desireable, the only way I could see it would be as some kind of bullet-time effect, and I don't see how that could be implemented in an MMO with multiple people observing you...or by making the enchanter run faster, so you only have to change his frame of reference!

    As for some of the other abilities that could be granted by illusions, such as EB, Levi, Ultravision, etc, consider this: If an enc has the ability to cast these spells by themselves (which he could do for a lot of the effects attached to illusions in early EQ) in Pantheon, why wouldn't an experienced Enc be able to blend them into a visual illusion in order to make that illusion more complete? Maybe... A blending that is enabled by putting the right mods in some of those ability altering slots we that we see in the live stream?   A hypothetical question, since we don't have any spell lists yet ;)


    This post was edited by Irriaden at August 24, 2016 5:10 PM PDT
    • 325 posts
    August 25, 2016 12:39 AM PDT

    I loved my EQ1 Enchanter and especially all the illusions.  They each had SOMETHING to give...

    What it did was it made the Enchanter the absolute KING of questing.

    • 237 posts
    August 25, 2016 9:28 AM PDT

    Irriaden said:

    what if you change the shift in frame of reference to the observers of the enchanter rather than the enchanter himself?  This is more in line with the mind-altering abilities of the enchanter (such as mez/paci), and you could say that he is altering the minds of his observers so it appears that he is moving faster.  Of course, this would be like a universal slow/snare to everyone but the enchanter, but theoretically within a very powerful enchanter's mind altering capabilities. 



    Yeah! That would definitely work, but I agree that would be too OP. Maybe like a demi-god enchanter ability.

    Irriaden said:
    As for some of the other abilities that could be granted by illusions, such as EB, Levi, Ultravision, etc, consider this: If an enc has the ability to cast these spells by themselves (which he could do for a lot of the effects attached to illusions in early EQ) in Pantheon, why wouldn't an experienced Enc be able to blend them into a visual illusion in order to make that illusion more complete? Maybe... A blending that is enabled by putting the right mods in some of those ability altering slots we that we see in the live stream?   A hypothetical question, since we don't have any spell lists yet ;)


    Hey, now thats a good point! I forgot there was some core magic spells that all casters could use. For sure if they are allowing an enchanter to cast these other abilities, I would have no qualms about them being blended into illusions. It would be cool if these were reserved for advanced illusions and were multicolored mana spells. I'm just overly worried about class role boundaries haha.


    This post was edited by Syntro at August 25, 2016 9:29 AM PDT
    • 325 posts
    August 25, 2016 3:53 PM PDT

    I think the "other" abilities that came with illusions usually had soemthing to do with the racial aspects that you were using the illusion for.  FOr instance, if you used the illusion for a Dark Elf then you also got Ultravision.  I think this would sort of be required because they lived in a very dark cave - without the Ultravision how could you be a convincing Dark Elf if you walk into a wall?  Would you really be convincing when using illusion Dark Myr if you started to drown while underwater?  Underwater Breathing NEEDS to be a part of that illusion!

    • 707 posts
    October 7, 2016 1:20 PM PDT

    I loved illusions in EQ1, and used them all of the time.  As far as illusions having real effects (not just optical changes), Dungeons and Dragons and Pathfinder have plenty of illusions that had real effects, although usually minor.  You could summon illusory weapons that had effects, even on people who successfully disbeleived, and could even teleport using an illusion.

    I like having illusions with effects tied to them, but they shouldn't step on the toes of other classes.  Plus, not evey illusion has to provide something useful.  I remember Illusion:  Werewolf did not provide any bonuses, but it was fun running through West Karana or Kithicor Fores (before it was invaded) as a werewolf scaring people and seeing people shout where I was ("Werewolf near wizard portal!").

    • 12 posts
    December 7, 2016 10:53 PM PST

    I think *MINOR* perks for illusions are fine.  I agree with some of what Syntro said, but it is a magical illusion, not a costume or mask.  It should inherit some minor properties of whatever it is an illusion of i.e. if you're a wolf, you run faster, if you're a troll you regen slightly better, if you're a human, you get better prices etc

    • 371 posts
    January 15, 2017 2:33 AM PST

    I am going to side with Syntro here. If you call it an Illusion, it should just be an optical facade made to deceive others.

    Of course, enchanters might be able to do both: Perhaps in their early career, they can only do Illusions, but when they become more powerful, they can actually transform into whatever they want.

    • 206 posts
    April 3, 2017 5:59 AM PDT

    I want to see illusions have advantages and disadvantages to weather/ environment. Even to the perception system.

     

    In wolf illusion, as an example, one would have a better sense of smell, and a higher ability to withstand cold. On the other hand, subtle images will be harder to make out, and heat will create greater exhaustion.

     

    Ogre or Skar form might increase strength, while gnome might increase magic resistance. Myr form might give enduring breath.


    This post was edited by Amris at April 3, 2017 5:59 AM PDT
    • 2262 posts
    April 3, 2017 7:40 AM PDT

    Illusions are not the same as transformations. So it doesn't make sense to actually take on any traits of your illusion. An illusion just makes it so that others perceive you to be something that you are not. But nothing physically changes about you. With a transformation, you actually become a different being.

    • 168 posts
    April 3, 2017 8:59 AM PDT

    Personally I loved illusions, it was one of the reasons I became an enchanter in the first place. I originally made a paladin in EQ 1, leveled to about lvl 9 and then I bumped into an enchanter in kelethin who was illusioned as wood elf and I couldn't figure out why an enchanter pet was following a wood elf since they obviously couldn't be enchanters. After they explained to me that it was an illusion and that they had several and would get several more at later levels I immediately logged off my paladin, deleted her (because I wanted to keep the name) and rerolled as an enchanter. Mind you I ended up loving a ton more about the class than just the illusions but they were the hook that grabbed me.

     

    That said, I think I'm falling more in line with Syntro on this conversation. Ultimately Illusions should basically be just be the illusion themself and not necessary a bunch of inherent abilities. Mind you I feel it is appropriate to add abilities like Endure Breath, Ultravision, Levitate and other such things that the enchanter naturally has access to the appropriate illusions because as others have said that is more about them using powers they've already mastered to enhance the illusions they cast.

     

    However, I think there is room for some expansion of illusion use in ways and methods that could serve as a proper expansion to an enchanters abilities. Things like the Doppleganger AA are prime examples of how to increase the use of illusions while be lore friendly. I can easily see an enchanter casting an illusion of a hostile mob to lure/distract the mobs who's AI has them run for help. I can also see the opposite also worked where an enchanter casts illusions of group members a distance away to distract incoming mobs that might have added. I can also see illusion based buffs that somehow visually mark the creature being targeted by the buff wearer in a similar manner to Main Assist marks worked in EQ. Or maybe a UI enhancement allowing the enchanter the ability to buff players to see additional UI windows like Targets Target, or other such things that really make the lives easier for players but isn't necessarily needed. 

    • 874 posts
    April 3, 2017 3:44 PM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    Illusions are not the same as transformations. So it doesn't make sense to actually take on any traits of your illusion. An illusion just makes it so that others perceive you to be something that you are not. But nothing physically changes about you. With a transformation, you actually become a different being.

     

    This. Illusions should have absolutely no bonuses/buffs associated with them. They are deceptions; tricks to the senses but otherwise unreal. You can't get anything from something that isn't real.

    • 279 posts
    April 4, 2017 8:12 PM PDT

    One could mention that illusions themselves could be given to other classes. Staples in everquest are not staples in Pantheon. Enchanters enchant things. All we know about Pantheon enchanters right now is that they can use words to turn their enemies, that VR seems to like Everquest Enchanters, and that dwarven enchanters like enchanting metal so much they might be able to enchant brains.

    Should they enchant you with illusions, or buffs?


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at April 4, 2017 8:17 PM PDT
    • 4 posts
    April 8, 2017 1:59 PM PDT

    So from reading this page it seems there is a lot of unique ideas on how the enchanter should work for this game and I think that is absolutely awesome! I'd like to throw in my 2 cents after reading some of the ideas on this page.

    Firstly, I'd like to say that I would agree that an illusion is just that, an illusion. That being said it doesnt mean there couldn't be some benefits from them. While I'd disagree that becoming say an ogre should grant you the best faction with ogres and increased strength ultimately allowing the Enchanter class to do as they please so long as they have an illusion for it, I would say it doesn't mean it couldn't be beneficial.

    What if though there was a ranking system perhaps?... 

    Let's go with Dire Wolf as that seems to be the example being used most often in this forum.

    Rank 1 (given to you at a certain level from your trainer) - Allows you to become a Wolf for 30 mins.

    Rank 2 (maybe a drop or given at a later level quest etc) - 1 Hour basic regen while sitting (not more than if you had a buff for it but enough to maybe increase than not having the illusion at all)

    Rank 3 (Higher level dungeon drop/rare drop Enchanter specific quest after completing Rank 2) - Permanent until clicked off or dropped from aggro (maybe some monsters can see through it) grants slight regen while sitting and slight movement speed. (Again no where near if you say had SoW (if they implament someting like that in this game) but enough to make it worth having.)

    I think that might make Enchanters feel a little more needed without being completley overpowered. It gives you an edge but not the entire deck in your hand.

    As far as Racial Illusions that should give you the basic not being hated by whatever you are turing into. Not instanty loved. I see no fun in that and again extremely OP compared to other classes with the ability to go wherever whenever. Racial Cities should be about the grind for the faction imo. But being an enchanter for this could give you something like if you are hated you pop ogre and you are amiable. If you are Amiable and you pop ogre you boost to liked. Again its beneficial to a point but not just completley taken over.

    Now that isn't to say higher level illusions do offer better perks. EQ had ele illusions that offered imo awesome perks. I.E. Air allowed you to levitate, water granted underwater breathing. But make that later in the game for this class if you are going to go that route.

     

    I saw the mention of illusions vs transformation as well. Should Brad and the team keep this EQ esque maybe an AA line is implemented in their own way?

    AA could look something like:

    Transform: Dire world 0/5 - Allows the Enchanter to take form of a Dire Wolf, allowing them increased movement speed and regen. Farther tiers of this ability increase the potential of this spell by 2, 5, 10, 15, 25%.

    That to me makes sense and everyone gets their cake and eat too if you will. Again this are just examples of what I could think off the top of my head. This is also just speculating from an EQ perspective. For all we know enchanters get one spell called Illusion and you are turned into a 3 headed ginger cat with a bunny tail and horse legs and you kill everything in a 1000meter range. =)

     

    Cheers guys off to read about other class discussions! This game can't release fast enough!

     

    -Tomkins

    • 16 posts
    April 24, 2017 7:47 PM PDT

    I played EQ 1 for 12 years as an enchanter and I loved that I has too many tools to work with. I used my illusions to gain better factions for quests, and being a utility. Kedge Keep was amazing experience as water elemental. I truly hope that they also add the tier points for every illusion to make them even more powerful and useful. That would give me even more reason to work that up. 

    Tomkins, that is a great post and I hope that the Dev team implements your idea.

    I can’t wait to play my enchanter again.