Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

I once logged in as a Lizardman Shaman...."Project M"

    • 1434 posts
    August 15, 2016 10:27 AM PDT

    Great ideas, but I don't think you necessarily have to load every npc with lore. I think there should be something to discover while playing any mob that should would provide players with a reason to play mob chars. I think the best way to benefit a player beyond direct transferrable wealth or progression would be knowledge. That could be something a mob perceives, something that can be triggered somewhere by your actions, a hint at a quest that exists somewhere. Maybe details on the location of a legendary item. Perhaps even your actions or a dialogue could temporarily unlock something you could go do on another character. It could really be anything.

    I also think those things should not necessarily be static. If one can simply read a wiki for the info it would defeat the purpose.

    Yes, it would be work, but if done right it could be as profitable as any other work. I really think something like project M could be a defining feature and a much needed source of dynamic content for a new MMO. Its important for us to move away from this 'same old, same old' approach.

    • 1399 posts
    August 15, 2016 11:03 PM PDT

    I feel once you give a reason to play the MOB , quest, experience, etc. as is being talked about here in the last handfull of messages in this thread, then you have crossed the to a PVP only server.
    What is the difference between that and playing a Troll or a Ogre in WOW. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I just feel it violates the spirit of what Project-M was.
    And then it shouldn't be allowed on a PVE server.

    Project-M had none of this, nothing to take with you back to the main game. The incentive to play a mob in Project-X was simply something different to mix things up a bit. I like to compare it to the GEM's game in Everquest, a little senseless Tetris game to keep yourself amused while you were waiting on others

    • 1434 posts
    August 15, 2016 11:25 PM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    I feel once you give a reason to play the MOB , quest, experience, etc. as is being talked about here in the last handfull of messages in this thread, then you have crossed the to a PVP only server.
    What is the difference between that and playing a Troll or a Ogre in WOW. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I just feel it violates the spirit of what Project-M was.
    And then it shouldn't be allowed on a PVE server.

    Project-M had none of this, nothing to take with you back to the main game. The incentive to play a mob in Project-X was simply something different to mix things up a bit. I like to compare it to the GEM's game in Everquest, a little senseless Tetris game to keep yourself amused while you were waiting on others

    Project M was much more pvp focused that what is being discussed. In fact, PvP is all it was and that's undoubtedly why it was short-lived. What we are suggesting could offer things like lore, pve, discovery, quests info and providing world dynamics for player characters. On top of all that, several solutions were offered to minimize the opportunity for griefing.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at August 15, 2016 11:28 PM PDT
    • 510 posts
    August 16, 2016 10:00 AM PDT

    You keep referring to it as forced PvP.  It was not.  In any way.  Most of my time as a mob was spent killing other mobs.  Most of my time as a player LOOKING for PC mobs was for aught - I never found one!  EVER!

     

    The other thing to consider is this:  Equilibirium.  If it was designed to be forced PvP than the mobs would have had a LOT more going for it.  The abilities were NOT on par with players.  The gear?  Don't make me laugh!  ANY case of PvP where the mob won could ONLY be attributed to one thing - sheer volume of players controlling the mobs.  And even THAT is not a bad thing.  I would be OK was sacrificing a death or two to an army of PC controlled Orcs invading the area if I just got to be a part of that fight!  And I guarentee you that I would take some of them with me.

    What we have been discussing is making Project M fun to play without creating an overt atmosphere of harassment.  We have been talking of ways to prevent  large numbers of players from gathering and causing an issue.  We have been talking of ways to make it more appealing to play a mob on a limited basis.  We have been talking about not forcing ANYONE to partake if they do not want to.

    If this goes forward and you turn and see a humon controlled klicknik scuttling toward you are you going to give up and run to a guard immediately?  What would you do if you turned and saw a NON-human controlled Klicknik?  Fight it or run?

    If I turned and saw a whole army of klickniks running toward me?  I would run to a guard.  I wouldn't even pause to think if it was human controlled or not.  But if it was just 1?  I am fighting it.

    • 510 posts
    August 19, 2016 7:00 AM PDT

    I believe they had actually discussed this type of event (building a static spawn) in EQ Next.  I don't think they had paired it with a PC controlling interest though.  Still wish a DevGuy would say "hi"!

    • 999 posts
    August 19, 2016 4:29 PM PDT

    Dullahan said:

    Zorkon said:

    I feel once you give a reason to play the MOB , quest, experience, etc. as is being talked about here in the last handfull of messages in this thread, then you have crossed the to a PVP only server.
    What is the difference between that and playing a Troll or a Ogre in WOW. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I just feel it violates the spirit of what Project-M was.
    And then it shouldn't be allowed on a PVE server.

    Project-M had none of this, nothing to take with you back to the main game. The incentive to play a mob in Project-X was simply something different to mix things up a bit. I like to compare it to the GEM's game in Everquest, a little senseless Tetris game to keep yourself amused while you were waiting on others

    Project M was much more pvp focused that what is being discussed. In fact, PvP is all it was and that's undoubtedly why it was short-lived. What we are suggesting could offer things like lore, pve, discovery, quests info and providing world dynamics for player characters. On top of all that, several solutions were offered to minimize the opportunity for griefing.

    And, honestly, I could see the converse be true and people try to abuse this in PvE for PVE benefit if no exp was lost from when player controlled mob made the kill.

     Someone knows there friend is a monster, player character tries to kill a difficult NPC with his monster buddy watching, Monster friend sees that PC is going to die so he jumps in for the killing blow so PC does not lose exp.

    OR, PC controlled monster helps out a PC and helps take down the mob.  

    Perhaps there would need to be some rule such as if PC mob does less than 50% of damage to PC that equates in PC death - PC loses exp.  

    Or, PC controlled mob is unable to attack a mob that has  been already engaged by the PC.

    Not sure how that could be measured accurately if heals were used though for example.


    This post was edited by Raidan at August 19, 2016 4:41 PM PDT
    • 279 posts
    August 19, 2016 4:36 PM PDT

    How about make it a Pantheon style Holiday around Halloween? When the blood moon rises monsters bloodlust overflows, be wary of the shadows because you migh be being watched!

    • 510 posts
    August 20, 2016 7:53 AM PDT

    I had thought about the "exploiting" aspects of a PC mob by helping other players.  I find it null and void.  Why?  Easy - the skills and abilities of a mob are so far below that of a typical player that it is actually more of a hinderence having a PC Mob than having a friend decked out in gear standing next to you.  So if you wanted someone to "help" you - you are much better off having your friend log in with his main toon etc. than in relying on the possibility that the random placement might place him somewhere close enough to be some sort of help.  You MIGHT get some help - but it would not be nearly the help you would get from a normal player decked out in gear etc.

    Still, there might be a way to "engineer" an in-game mechanic so that you "could" play a mob and play it as a pet/familiar for a PC.  But again, this is a wish-list thing.  And it would be way towards the bottom most likely...

    • 999 posts
    August 20, 2016 10:18 AM PDT

    @Nephretiti

    I had thought about your counter, but there would be other ways as well.  PC controlled mob pulling a camp without fear of exp loss, PC picks off one mob from the train to split the camp, etc.

    Probably more of a hassle than it would be worth to coordinate it, just suggesting it "could" happen, and I'd argue would potentially be worse than someone stating the system was forced PvP.

    • 4 posts
    August 20, 2016 3:48 PM PDT

    It was one of the most awesome things any MMO has ever done, and it went away so fast.....

    • 1434 posts
    August 20, 2016 3:58 PM PDT

    Raidan said:

    @Nephretiti

    I had thought about your counter, but there would be other ways as well.  PC controlled mob pulling a camp without fear of exp loss, PC picks off one mob from the train to split the camp, etc.

    Probably more of a hassle than it would be worth to coordinate it, just suggesting it "could" happen, and I'd argue would potentially be worse than someone stating the system was forced PvP.

    If the pc mob you get to play is random, I don't really see this being a big problem. You could also prevent some of these things by giving pc mobs higher threat so its not so easy to just pick a mob off. Once the pc mob is dead, the chance of them getting back to a specific area in a specific zone would be minimal.

    • 510 posts
    August 21, 2016 8:53 AM PDT

    Yes, that was exactly what I was saying.  It is WAY too much of a hassle to make it a viable exploitation tool.  You would be MUCH better off if your friend just logged in as a normal player.

    • 999 posts
    August 21, 2016 7:02 PM PDT

    @Nephretiti & Dullahan

    I agree, I was just suggesting that it would be more likely that PvE would be exploited than be a griefing tool for PvP.  I think the potential postiives in the system are endless and far outweigh any potential negatives.  I was just trying to bring the "devil's advocate" viewpoint into discussion.

    Anyway, similar to you both - I'd love to hear developer opinions on whether this would/could be a viable system or not.

    • 763 posts
    August 22, 2016 1:31 AM PDT

    I have always seen this more as a mechanic showing 'the least worst' way to integrate PvP into a PvE server (assuming you want to envisage such a thing). Since it has 'facets' of PvP (and hence may appeal enough to PvP players to get them to play on a PvE server) it will inevtably off some of the 'down-side' of PvP (as far as PvE'ers are concerned). However, these would be mitigated far better under this scenario than in almost any other scenario offered by other MMOs for PvP players:

    1. Seperate Server for PvP

    PRO: All players are running same ruleset.

    PRO: Preferred by PvP players

    CON: Low/split populations

    CON: More servers to administer/provide CS

    2. Areas/Zones that are PvP within the PvE map/world

    PRO: Any player can enter into PvP

    PRO: Both populations on one server

    CON: These are avoided unless quests force players into them.

    CON: PvP'ers hate to be forced into small 'arena' areas

    CON: PvE'ers hate to be forced to use these areas

    3. Flag required to interact as PvP players on PvE.

    PRO: Both populations on one server

    CON: PvP'ers find this waters down the experience

    CON: PvP'ers find this makes it less skill + more random (cannot see PvP'ers easily)

    4. Login and progress as 'Monster' on PvE server.

    PRO: Both populations on one server

    PRO: Far less griefing than in PvP servers

    PRO: Can be used to emulate/supplement GM events

    PRO: Appeals to PvP'ers

    PRO: Can be used to fill 'short time' play

    PRO: Increased challenge for PvE players (note also CON)

    CON: Marginally more opportunity for griefing than regular PvE (can be mitigated easily)

    CON: Increased challenge for PvE players (note also PRO)

    While seperate PvP server provides the 'most challenging' and is the preferred mode for PvP'ers, it is well established that PvP servers tend to have much lower populations. For this reason many PvP'ers have other characters on blue servers in addition. Split populations means the DEVs need to andminister 2x as many servers as intended.

    Additionally, since Pantheon may be looking at having 'different ruleset' shards for players, Eg instead of 2 Bue Servers, it would have 2 Vanilla blue servers and 1 'hard ruleset' blue server, say, for a total of 3, not 2. If you add Red servers (PvP servers) into this mix, suddenly you add 1-2 *more* servers in each case. This is amplified for every extra ruleset server you add. Eventually you get to the point where server populations are too low across all servers. Having Red servers separate from Blue would almost certainly mean a reduction in different ruleset servers in order to maintain population levels, perhaps even making it impossible to do at all.

    TLDR: Playing as a monster has *other* possible benefits than just 'a fun option I may try a few times'. If it is done well (with checks and balances plus opportunities for progression), and if the PvP community test it and find it worthwhile (feeds their inner Killer) then it may (mostly) just go towards solving two of the biggest problems MMOs encounter.... Sever Population balance and Player Play preferences.

    • 1434 posts
    August 22, 2016 4:23 AM PDT

    This really doesn't have to be primarily about PvP. They could offer several types of mobs like hunter, gatherer, sentry. Maybe only the sentry can attack other players. Maybe gatherer has tasks to collect or interact with other npcs. The hunter's job could be fighting other mobs or wildlife. All could fight back when attacked of course.

    To develop or forward the agenda of a faction, you need the collective effort of all types.

    Maybe once the first phase is complete, it unlocks other types like a diplomat. This class also isn't about fighting players, but their purpose is to broker peace with a warring faction.

    Again, possibilities are endless, and PvP only need be a small part.

    • 510 posts
    August 22, 2016 7:11 AM PDT

    Oh I agree - the opportunities here (DevWise) are pretty boundless.  But again, remember this is not CORE REQUIRED concepts we are discussing.  Let's get the game mechanics up and running and THEN push for something like this.  I know by now we have all watched the streaming events of in-game play (MOAR PLEASE!) and it certainly seems like they are playing a game and having a great time, but it looks pre-Alpha to me.  LOTS of things that need work (and that's OK!) and should be fixed BEFORE we have a go for Project M.

     

    Dangit Kilsin!  Get a Dev in here to tell us to shut up or keep going!

    • 1434 posts
    August 22, 2016 7:48 AM PDT

    I'm just having fun theorycrafting this thing. Its something really different with a lot of potential that makes for great discussion. I'm not holding my breath on this being something they would consider anytime soon but once we have something a little more concrete I'd love to hear some dev input.

    • 510 posts
    August 22, 2016 5:45 PM PDT

    IKR?  And THESE are the guys who did it in the first place!  I would like to claim responsibility for it - really - but it was all them!

    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    August 22, 2016 9:30 PM PDT

    Warning! I began to respond to this thread and found myself digging a lot deeper, arguably going a bit off topic, and certainly succumbed to verbosity’s allure….

    Yes, I do indeed remember experimenting with letting players log in as NPCs.  And my post should stop here, but it doesn’t.  So, I don't remember all of the details (damn old age) but I do remember a lot of people enjoyed it.  But I also recall that it was not long lived... it was a very different experience and pretty easy for us to implement and some people *loved* it.  But we didn't have the time and resources at that point (what's new?) to really add depth to it... the whole thing was fairly shallow.  Could you hold onto your leveled up mob?  Could you get any good loot?  Could you somehow benefit your regular characters based on the success of your NPC?  Could you even zone?

    If I recall correctly, no to all of the above.  There were serious limitations and restrictions – some to try to contain and balance it, and some because the system simply wasn’t very well thought out or implemented.  So some people put some real time into it, had fun, but also fairly quickly realized it wasn't 'sticky' -- it wasn't an experience that had a lot of retention and depth in it.  To do it right we would have at the very least let you progress your NPC in a similar way as your PC.   Balance was also a challenge – you couldn’t let this devolve into a system where you could simply create a mob so you could PK the people on your PvE shard you didn’t like.  You'd have to have loot drops designed for NPC-PCs.  You'd have to have cool skills to develop.  Ideally you'd be able to group with other NPCs, but from what I remember, there was a lot of randomness -- where you'd appear, who you'd be, what level you'd be, and how far you could actually travel.

    So it was certainly a worthwhile experiment.  I think it proved that, given sufficient support and attention, something like this could be a lot of fun for a lot of people.  Ideally it would also make the PvE world a little more dynamic because *some* NPCs you encounter might actually be controlled by real people.  Is it possibly on the road to El Dorado – that mythical day in the future where some brilliant dev finally figures out how to make PvP and PvE co-exist in the same shard?  Nah.  But in one sense it was a very early attempt at horizontal advancement, something that's being talked about quite a bit lately.  It's a complimentary way to play the game, where you're doing something different enough, and your experience is different enough, that it counts as a different way to play the game.  This, of course, is something we're super interested in, especially post-launch.  We dabbled with it in VG with the diplo sphere, although we didn't fully realize the initial design for diplo and it fell short too (more on that in a moment).

    Anyway, in summary, successful additional horizontal progression is not something easy to do, or something you can just hack together.  Not if it's going to be as deep as the primary progression (leveling up your PC, acquiring rare items, exploring, learning new skills and abilities, and making real friends).  One could argue that this 2nd means of progression doesn't have to be totally as fleshed out as the first.  But there's got to be enough there -- enough to do, enough to get better at, enough to learn, and things to look forward to achieving.  If there's not enough there, then some people will mess with it, some a bit longer than others, and then they'll just return to the core game.  They may even have a total blast for a while, which is great, but that doesn't mean there's enough depth to it to keep people at it for months and years.  And, IMHO, to be a legitimate secondary horizontal advancement path, it needs to have enough to keep people for months and years.  If not, then a lot of time and effort was expended for something that didn’t really last – and that’s what an MMO dev should do his best to avoid.  That's why we're very interested in it, committed to experimenting with it post-launch, but also keeping it real -- we keep letting you guys know that it could take a while to do something like this right.  Contrary to some of the skeptics who attacked my recent AMA as being just full of fluff and over promising and always saying 'sure, we'll have that!', the reality is I like to keep it real.  I don't want you guys looking forward to something and then we underperform or fail to deliver.  This happened to some degree with VG when I was promoting it on the boards... some people still accuse me of describing a game that was far deeper than what we launched with, and they're right.  But it wasn't me sitting there lying to people, promising things I didn't think would make it in.  Rather, I truly believed what I posted.  Then we had to ship at least 6 months early and things went to hell in a handbasket, etc.  

    So that probably makes me even more careful about managing expectations and keeping it real with you all.  Bards are a great example.  Yeah, I really want to have Bards at launch, as does the rest of the team, and as does the community.  But we also want them done right, and they are one of the more unique classes that when implemented correctly have a really different feel to them, how they are played, and how they affect the game for others.  So when I look at schedules and plans right now, I cannot confidently tell you guys we'll have enough time to get them in by launch.  We'll try, that's for sure, and we'll try hard.  But I'm not going to promise something I may not be able to deliver.  

    The same goes with doing something like Project M, or implementing a Diplo Sphere, etc.  Having hacked in, quick and dirty, the Project M experience, I saw the good and the bad.  Again, there just wasn't enough to it to keep people's interest long term.  That's not something we want to do again -- we *must* learn from our past mistakes.  So would I rule out something like Project M post launch?  Heck no, we love it, we had fun with it, we saw how much fun people had with it, etc.  And, if implemented correctly, it could be a significant part of the solution to the challenge of creating a more dynamic and interesting game world.  But we'll also only do it if we can do it with enough depth and content that it's a legit parallel way to play the game.  Again, same with Diplo.  Same with Bards.  

    Boy, looking back at what I wrote I seem like such a killjoy, sorry.  Being able to play as an NPC is friggin' cool, especially if it's balanced, fun, and has long term potential.  Diplo is still something we only partially realized in VG and there's so much more we want to do with it.  Indulge me for a moment and let me tell you a little about diplo…

    Can you imagine having to use Diplomacy skills and abilities to make your way into the depths of a castle, the very capital of a powerful empire?  You need to make it to the king’s chamber and speak with him in order to obtain a truly epic quest.  But no matter how powerful you and your friends are, you’re not going to fight your way into the throne room.  And then, even if you did, the king wouldn’t be keen on giving you this quest.  But if you just walk up to the outside guards and ask to be admitted, they laugh at you.  Who are you?  Why possibly would we let you in the castle where the nobility we are sworn to protect live?  So what do you do?  You can’t walk in and you can’t fight in.  Instead, you use completely different abilities and skills to earn the guard’s confidence, to gain entrance.  Then you have to do things for palace guards further inside too, favors and such that do not involve violence.  Rather, you need to use your charisma, your intelligence, your faction, your reputation, and a bunch of abilities that allow you to influence NPCs and, if successful, radically change how they view you.  After you’ve spent some serous time earning their trust, finally you are in the throne room and, hopefully, the King is there and willing to have a dialog with you.  But probably not at first – he doesn’t know you either.  How do you convince him you are worthy of this knowledge?  How can you, a mere adventurer, do favors and influence a royal court?   Is it time to bribe? Or to charm with words? Or to make promises, even ones you couldn’t possibly deliver on?  Make the wrong move and best case, you’re kicked out of the castle on your butt; worst case they lose patience with you completely and have you executed in front of the royal court as entertainment.  Finally, you figure it all out, learn the tactics necessary, use the correct skills and abilities, spend time leveling yourself up in Diplomacy, and then you have your one-on-one with the King, finally receiving this epic quest, one built on secrets only he was privy to until now…

    Think about good fantasy novels and stories.  Think about some of the better tabletop scenarios and modules.  It wasn’t all about combat – it wasn’t hack’n’slash all of the time.  Puzzles had to be solved, traps avoided, and might and brawn wasn’t always sufficient.  There were many instances where, no matter how powerful you were, you had to reach an area or talk to an NPC, but fighting your way to him made zero sense.  With MUDs and MMOs we lost a lot of this and most everything fell back to hack-n-slash.  If you wanted something you had to win a series of battles, or kill a specific mob, or complete a quest that typically involved combat itself.  Factions made a little headway here – the idea that you had to earn positive faction status with a certain group of NPCs before they would talk with you, trade with you, give you quests, etc.  Makes sense.  But then how did one improve one’s faction standing with this group?  Almost always, it was killing NPCs that group didn’t like over and over again until they finally liked you. 

    That’s where Diplomacy comes in.  In a world where fighting to achieve everything is not only unrealistic but also risks being too repetitive, and in a world where bribing, or befriending, or getting on the good side of an NPCs takes time and skill and your combat prowess essentially irrelevant, in that world you’ve managed to make a game that is much more interesting, dynamic and deep.  And that’s where we wanted to go with Diplo – just a bit further than a card game :)

    This is why it’s so important to us that we don’t only launch a great game but that we keep it a popular and successful MMO and that we’re able to keep working on it for years to come.  It comes from a realization that most MMO devs came to years ago:  you just can’t get everything in by launch.  (You also can’t make an MMO that appeals to everyone, even if you spend a ton of money, but I digress, sorry). 

    Then there's UGC, outposts, and all sorts of killer stuff.  But right now our focus has to be primarily on what Pantheon is going to be at launch.  It is paramount that Pantheon at launch stands on its own, that it's a great game, that it's not missing pieces and parts, that it's really fun, and that there's enough content to keep people interested for months and years.  And that's no easy task, although we're certainly up for it and there's nothing we'd rather be doing.  Upon that foundation the rest can be built.

    Anyway, next time my response to something like this will be *much* shorter.  I took some (well, a LOT) of extra time here to make sure you guys understand how we look at cool ideas like Project M.  We’d love to re-visit Diplo one day and hopefully have it manifest into a system closer to the original vision.  These ideas and more excite us too, but we have to focus now on moving the game forward towards alpha, beta, and launch.  We may comment on an idea, agree that’s it’s a cool one, but then quickly say it’s not really anything we could take seriously until after launch.  When we do so, and this is why I went into so much detail, please don’t feel like we’re blowing the idea off, or that we don’t think there’s some real potential there.  That’s not the case at all; rather, it’s just imperative during MMO development to keep your eye on the prize, that you don’t let feature creep envelop you, that you don’t end up missing dates and over promising while under delivering.  It’s why we try to get people excited about Pantheon but not to over hype it or pretend it will be more than what it is planned to be.  Expectations are hard to manage, but managed they must be. 

    Anyway, more than enough said… I think I’ll log in as a lich, build my own crypt using UGC tools, summon ancient and powerful sphinxes to guard my crypt – mobs that are unbeatable in combat – indeed the only way to get by them is to solve their riddles while keeping them happy, keeping them flattered and entertained, feeding their self-importance, lest they grow bored after a while and eat you.  But, even if they do, please make sure you rate my mini-dungeon as a great experience so that my reputation in UGC goes up and eventually I am given even more responsibility and more ways to dynamically affect the world.  Thanks!

     


    This post was edited by Aradune at August 22, 2016 9:34 PM PDT
    • 1778 posts
    August 22, 2016 10:13 PM PDT

    Excellent post Brad. You covered a lot of things there. I really appreciate you taking the time to go into the detail as well. Ill not say that I wont be sad if Bard doesnt make launch, but I understand and do want it to be the coolest class ever ^.~. Hmm so my other take away is that like crafting you do want Diplo to be a thing eventually too. Sounds like a lot of hard work to implement those systems into the game after the fact. Or is it fairly easy to do in Unity? Mostly just curious though.

    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    August 22, 2016 10:23 PM PDT

    Amsai said:

    Excellent post Brad. You covered a lot of things there. I really appreciate you taking the time to go into the detail as well. Ill not say that I wont be sad if Bard doesnt make launch, but I understand and do want it to be the coolest class ever ^.~. Hmm so my other take away is that like crafting you do want Diplo to be a thing eventually too. Sounds like a lot of hard work to implement those systems into the game after the fact. Or is it fairly easy to do in Unity? Mostly just curious though.

    It's actually not that hard to add to systems, to build on them, to evolve them, to even introduce new systems, etc. if you're working with a solid foundation.  That means code that is written modularly and that is flexable and designed to be added to.  That means databases that can be expanded with new tables and fields without breaking anything.  Yes, Unity does help and it's pretty good at keeping things organized.  Mostly, though, it's about good planning and even planning in the first place.  If you plan from day one to make a game that continues to evolve and expand for years then you shouldn't find yourself stuck or overwhelmed or having to tear one system down in order to make another one work.  It's also even easier if this is your third time :)

    • 4 posts
    August 22, 2016 10:24 PM PDT

    I feel like the simplicity of it all was a positive. I never wanted to see all of the stuff Brad mentions in his post as far as leveling, loot etc, and I don't see why we would need it.

    I just enjoyed logging in and messing around with people in a way that didn't really destroy their fun. We were restricted to playing pretty wimpy mobs anyway, and honestly couldn't do much to really mess up other peoples playing experience. 

    Would it have had any longevity without all the extra stuff we could have had such as loot and progression?  I don't know for sure, but did it need it?  It was a simpple feature that was easy to introduce and easy to play.  I kinda liked it that way.

    • 1399 posts
    August 22, 2016 10:43 PM PDT

    Aradune said:

    It's actually not that hard to add to systems, to build on them, to evolve them, to even introduce new systems, etc. if you're working with a solid foundation.  That means code that is written modularly and that is flexable and designed to be added to.  That means databases that can be expanded with new tables and fields without breaking anything.  Yes, Unity does help and it's pretty good at keeping things organized.  Mostly, though, it's about good planning and even planning in the first place.  If you plan from day one to make a game that continues to evolve and expand for years then you shouldn't find yourself stuck or overwhelmed or having to tear one system down in order to make another one work.  It's also even easier if this is your third time :)

    Ohh good answer!

    Thanks for resonding here Brad, and for the detail in your post. I didn't see anykind of let down it it at all. What I got from it was

    • The Idea is not off the table.
    • Your not making a promise it will happen.
    • Your writing the code modular to easly add systems (like this) as time permits.
    • If/when you do add a system like this it will have much more body/depth to it than just grief the noobs.

    I think thats all I can ask for at this time.. Thanks again

     

    • 510 posts
    August 22, 2016 11:19 PM PDT

    I had SUCH a deck of Diplo cards....

     

    Thanks Aradune - MUCH appreciatede a reply.  It was the EXACT answer I suspected it would be.  And I could NOT agree more in every aspect.  I think we all agree that doing THIS would be really cool - when time permits.  Let's get the game up and running and then we can start to look at the "wish list".

    In fact, I think I would rather have Diplo back in play before Project M.  I have ALWAYS hated Bards - out of sheer jealousy.  I would never be talented enough to Twist like the pros.  But yeah - those guys are magic in a way all their own.  I would have to say that the Dev on them has got to be the hardest...

     

    From 1999 to 2004 I had some amazing times in EQ.  Project M was so short - but it will always remain a memory of one of the BEST times for me.  And all I did was attack a player as a koalindl fish.  Oh - and I logged in this one time as a Lizardman Shaman....

    • 1434 posts
    August 22, 2016 11:59 PM PDT

    Diplo is great as far as a more manageable feature you can develop content around. Project M is great for more dynamic content that could bring the world to life and even, given enough depth, change the world of Terminus from one server to the next much like EQNext planned to do through their storybricks systems (which was just a faction system with greater scripting). What I like about Project M is that it would require a bit less AI and scripting and would leave it more up to the players - something is think is more feasible at this point in time.