Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Quick Switch for Gear –

    • 932 posts
    August 11, 2017 11:57 AM PDT

    lentik said:

    You dont have to use it in the beginning of your character progression, but you can later in end game use it if you want to optimize your spells, fight and your character performance, you can use it to modify your fighting behavior for every spell in dependency of weather, mob characteristics and so on - it should be more than the normal degrees of freedom we knowing from other games right!? I want to repeat my note again: it was in FFXI while combating for shure a complicated playing experience and only a advanced player could handle it right and smooth, but for hardcore playing it was one of the most fun thing which made the combat feels like a deep meditation in a small or in a big group (and yes, not only EQ matters, the old FFXI was a fantastic, maybe one of the best game out there and if pantheon want to bring the old times back, it will be better to not ignore that fantastic game mechanics). It was realy more than all the other games to only click a button and cast a spell, it was realy innovative, a science to play and im shure the development team knows what i mean ... so please think about that things for pantheon and im shure all the EQ players will like it too, if they stay open for innovative thinkings.

    It already sounds as if combat will have enough going on while not going for "action" focused combat, I don't believe adding yet more layers to combat performance/mechanical complexity is necessary. The nature of such things is they start out non-essential and seen only for min/maxers or hardcore until it becomes generally expected of anyone who wants to do the harder end game content and then just kind of expected in general to be seen as a decent player, as content becomes balanced around people doing these things. It sounds to me more about adding more room for execution error for the player to inflate the player ceiling; making it so that it isn't enough to know what to do and when to do it and then doing so, but making it so that while you may know you have to cast counterspell you now have additional steps thrown in to make it work right. 

     

    I'm a fan of gameplay and actions you take in a game, not tons of mechanical complexity. I'd argue depth/rythyms of play far more than depth of tinkering as mechanical complexity that has no gameplay interactions, serving only to make abilities harder to use well, are artificial gateways on being able to play a character. I understand that this is somewhat controversial since a number of people play to be able to express their creativity in micro-managing complex ability/skill mechanics but in general I would try to find the complex mechanics that also bring great gameplay, rather than sacrifice gameplay for complicated mechanics. At the end of the day with the proposed system, your decision-making isn't really increased by much, but you get all the associated issues of tedious memorization, sometimes confusing or convoluted, and the need of an encyclopedic knowledge to perform well.

     

    Combat depth and complexity are not the same dial; You can have complex things with very low depth, and deep things with low complexity. I do agree with you that there is room for MMO combat to be improved, I just fundamentally disagree on mechanical complexity for abilities/spells being the addition needed. 

    • 1963 posts
    August 11, 2017 1:58 PM PDT
    I am a fan of layers myself. But I will agree it doesnt have to come all from gear. But I also think (slight off topic) this is why some classes should be easier to play/master. And others should be harder to play/master. The end result should offer solutions for different types of gamers. We can already usually see this in roles. Usually tank/healers are a harder more demanding classes than DPS. Whatever the case. Layers are good. I want to get lost in the meta. But thats just me.
    • 129 posts
    August 12, 2017 6:38 AM PDT

    Quick swap macros for armor should be in the game, but only if you're out of combat. Armor should lose weight and stay on you when you die if you have soulbound it.

    • 251 posts
    August 12, 2017 6:04 PM PDT

    What if your style is iconic and you aren't willing to change it for anyone, or under any circumstances?

     

    • 84 posts
    August 13, 2017 7:27 AM PDT

    ZennExile said:

    What if your style is iconic and you aren't willing to change it for anyone, or under any circumstances?

     

    Then you would be well-suited (pun intended) to be fully engaged in the RPG aspects of MMORPG. Just exactly the kind of player I enjoy adventuring with and socializing with in-game. I did the same thing back in EQ with my secondary character. I didn't like the way a particular helmets looked on my character and refused to wear them. I steadfastly refused to put on a helmet - no matter what the encounter. My friends in real life had no problems with it - we're just playing to have fun; my guild had no problems with it - just play to have fun and progress; others I played with in-game had no problems with it. It was part of the RPG amd persona of my character and gameplay was fun and not a problem being able to group up with others and socialize during downtimes. (generally socializing in downtimes wasn't all role-playing and you could chat about things given an understanding of the group you were with; and there were othertimes wher you chatted while still role-playing; it's a nice variety and I found indicative of maturity and generally the more mature I envisioned the player on the other side of the avatar the more enjoyment and respect I had for the game, the group, and the encounter)

    This is the kind of player or the kind of acceptance in playing these games that has me looking forward to playing Pantheon with other people out there who are looking for a more enthralling gameplay and socializing aspect of MMOs. I hope to see you in game!

    Cheers!

    • 291 posts
    August 13, 2017 5:31 PM PDT

     

    I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to switch in combat, if there were a combat flag in Everquest, with mobs never leashing and staying on you forever, you'd have to zone to change gear, in a dungeon this could be a huge issue.  I do not think you should be able to switch gear instantly, I think it should take a bit of time per piece outside of combat, and if you choose to switch gear in combat, it should take a considerable amount more time per piece, because you're trying to do it under stress.

     

    Maybe .5-1 second per piece of gear outside of combat, 2-4 seconds per piece inside combat.  I also don't see any reason we can't have a simple 1 button press with gear sets attached to handle this, that goes through one by one in the order you tell it to and switches it... cuz even if you don't have that functionality, my keyboard macros will.

    • 461 posts
    August 13, 2017 7:26 PM PDT

    I havn't a clue if they will do switching in combat or not. It sounds like if they DID allow something like this there would be penalties. I imagine enemies that see somebody equiping gear would see them as a good target to attack, like a mage meditating in the background. Interesting thoughts. 

     

    -Todd

    • 749 posts
    August 14, 2017 7:49 AM PDT

    I desperately hope that situational gear will be limited in use that a gear swapping mechanic won't be necessary. I do not want to have to micro manage all sorts of items in my already limited inventory. Every additional item you get for a given slot devalues all the rest. The last thing I want is to get my Cloak of Winning and only be able to wear it 50% of the time because the rest is "situational". Tying players to memorable, important pieces of gear is *extremely* important for creating a bond with the world and the game. 

    • 399 posts
    August 24, 2017 7:27 AM PDT

    I like "quick gear change" options, but I think there should be some type of penalty/delay. Say you cannot block for a few moments or auto attack is paused. Include some type of balance to prevent people flipping back and forth to spam certain types of attacks.

    • 13 posts
    August 25, 2017 11:29 AM PDT

    I agree with a lot of people here that switching weapons in combat is completely fine but switching actual gear seems overkill. I'm not sure that many people realize that the higher level you are the more stats there is on gear generally. If you take your clothes off mid fight...you really should just die instantly and most likely would considering your HP, AC and mana would drop to base stats between switching. Just like in some MMO's when a piece breaks completely -you lose the benefits immediately and drop the stats which can really hurt a raid if you come un-repaired.

    • 85 posts
    August 26, 2017 6:22 PM PDT

    I am against gear switching mid-fight.  That for me is totally immersion breaking.  A tank changing chestplates in the middle of battle should get him killed, as in real life.  I want the world to be as realistic as possible without being tedious.

    • 1692 posts
    August 26, 2017 9:34 PM PDT

    EQ always allowed gear swapping in mid combat, and it was practically instantaneous. Weird that it is suddenly considered immersion breaking.

    The primary reason gear hasn't been allowed in some games is because the combat mechanics can be exploited by swapping gear in mid combat and it makes the game feel clunky and terrible. For instance, swapping in a set bonus that gives a damage increase to specific spells every time you cast a spell. That would be awful.

    Also, tanks don't exist in real life. At least not the kind of tanks we refer to in MMOs. Immersion is such a funny argument.

    • 251 posts
    August 27, 2017 12:32 AM PDT

    Consumers are fickle, and tend to reject reasonable, and in some cases, far higher quality products, in favor of culturally accepted notions of how things should appear in the package.

    Because of this Suspension of Disbelief is objectively the most essential ingredient in any quality recipe, and the target audience will absolutely expect their palette to be satisfied 99.9% of the time.  When telling a story you cannot simply un-train the cultural palette and force feed it a foreign perspective.  You must seek to satisfy it, using a novel means, or by tricking it with an acceptable gimmick.

    Immersion is the measure of depth to which the majority of players in a given sample will sink their finger to test the temperature, before just taking a bite.  This average depth should absolutely remain as coherent across the board as possible.  Any sense of weakness, or obvious discoloration, at the consumer level, will affect the integrity of the entire experience.  Even if there is no loss of objective quality.

    A uniform sense of what is expected should always be a matter of delicate consideration.

     


    This post was edited by ZennExile at August 27, 2017 2:12 AM PDT
    • 261 posts
    August 27, 2017 8:42 AM PDT

    Fast gear switching can be immersion breaking whether or not we can point to some real life analogue. Like I said, it makes no sense that my character can move his hands and body fast enough to change his boots, chestplate, and leggings in less time than it takes to take a single swing of his sword. Now if your response is that Terminus is a high fantasy world not subject to such rules, I am not really persuaded. Internal consistency is still important in a fantasy world. And when the internal consistency is broken, it breaks immersion--again, regardless of how things work in the "real world". 

    • 1692 posts
    August 27, 2017 9:32 AM PDT

    Immersion is always broken to an extent. It's all relative.

    Pantheon is a game. Arguments that reference immersion generally posit a false dichotomy of whether or not something is, or isn't, immersion breaking. Even if you have gear switching that isn't fast, you're still using your mouse to press a button to swap your gear, or you're manually clicking it.

    Internal consistency is fine, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me that something as arbitrary as whether or not gear is swappable quickly or slowly impacts immersion in any meaningful way. The choice is generally a practical choice, and has more to do with the mechanics of the combat system than immersion.

    What people here decide is and isn't immersion breaking is, to me, extremely inconsistent.

    • 206 posts
    August 27, 2017 8:58 PM PDT

    I understand that this is a game and mechanics aren't always going to reflect the real world.  And I am fine with that.  However,  I simply do not want a game in which part of the mechanics of fighting is insta-changing of wardrobe mid-battle.  Switching weapons/shield, sure.  But even that should have a slight negative -- a delay.  And if a tank in full plate can change his pants and breatplate while tanking, without a huge time delay and a high chance of dying, I'm not likely to have much interest in that game.  And quite a few others seem to hold the same view.  Fortunately, I don't think that's the route VR is heading down.

    • 1692 posts
    August 27, 2017 9:10 PM PDT

    The part that confuses me is that instant gear swapping is not new, yet is now suddenly a deal breaker. Most games don't even allow you to do it because doing so would have severe unintended consequences.

    If you can swap gear mid-battle but there isn't any exploitable or extreme benefit to doing so, then it's irrelevant. Having devastating consequences for swapping gear mid-battle on principle is nonsense. Having the capability doesn't meaningfully impact combat in this situation so why make such a non-issue into a big deal?

    On the other hand, if it leads to exploitable or extremely beneficial situations, then just disable the ability to swap gear in combat. Easy.

    If I'm mistaken or missing the point, tell me. It sounds like you want severe penalties for gear swapping for no reason other than you want severe penalties for gear swapping. Why does it even matter in the first place?

    EQ allows you to freely swap any piece of gear with no real consequences because nothing is fundamentally broken by having that capability. There's no benefit to swapping breastplates in the middle of a fight so people just don't do it. Whether or not you can is irrelevant. If someone told me that they should remove the ability to do that in EQ I'd tell them it's a waste of dev time because it's beneath concern.

    EQ2 on the other hand doesn't allow you to swap gear after combat has already started, because there are a ton of combat usable items and having the ability to swap every single item with a clickable buff would fundamentally break the entire combat system.

    I've literally never heard someone complain about the ability to swap gear in EQ. My point is that it depends on what kind of game Pantheon will be with regards to gear and clickable effects. A practical choice based on mechanics, not something as nebulous as immersion.


    This post was edited by Liav at August 27, 2017 9:15 PM PDT
    • 17 posts
    August 28, 2017 2:59 AM PDT

    For me if it makes the game play better and introdices some nice layers of stratergy then yeah sounds good to me. However in a game with some element of "Grind" constantly switching gear and weapons to maximise efficiency can become very tiresome. So yeah VERY tough one to balance IMO. Having special loadouts for specific zones or large groups of mob types rather than mob to mob sounds good so your not constantly switching.

    • 206 posts
    August 28, 2017 8:13 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    The part that confuses me is that instant gear swapping is not new, yet is now suddenly a deal breaker. Most games don't even allow you to do it because doing so would have severe unintended consequences.

    If you can swap gear mid-battle but there isn't any exploitable or extreme benefit to doing so, then it's irrelevant. Having devastating consequences for swapping gear mid-battle on principle is nonsense. Having the capability doesn't meaningfully impact combat in this situation so why make such a non-issue into a big deal?

    On the other hand, if it leads to exploitable or extremely beneficial situations, then just disable the ability to swap gear in combat. Easy.

    If I'm mistaken or missing the point, tell me. It sounds like you want severe penalties for gear swapping for no reason other than you want severe penalties for gear swapping. Why does it even matter in the first place?

    EQ allows you to freely swap any piece of gear with no real consequences because nothing is fundamentally broken by having that capability. There's no benefit to swapping breastplates in the middle of a fight so people just don't do it. Whether or not you can is irrelevant. If someone told me that they should remove the ability to do that in EQ I'd tell them it's a waste of dev time because it's beneath concern.

    EQ2 on the other hand doesn't allow you to swap gear after combat has already started, because there are a ton of combat usable items and having the ability to swap every single item with a clickable buff would fundamentally break the entire combat system.

    I've literally never heard someone complain about the ability to swap gear in EQ. My point is that it depends on what kind of game Pantheon will be with regards to gear and clickable effects. A practical choice based on mechanics, not something as nebulous as immersion.

     

    In EQ, you could manually change 1 item at a time if you so desired.  The delay was built in.  This thread is largely talking about having sets that one can change instantly.  And we ARE talking about a game in which situational armour will occur.  So, yes, it would be exploitable.  But, as I said earlier, I, personnally, have no desire to play a game in which the changing of armour sets is a key mechanic of combat.  I just don't.  I don't care if one can slot in a clicky now and again.  I might even enjoy that.  I don't want to have to carry five sets of armour that I have to change from moment to moment depending on which part of the fight I'm on.  A couple of different sets of weapons (two items), fine.  Full armour sets?  No. Aside from bag space, I just simply do not find that to be a fun way to play a game.  If the devs want to put in some stances, and such that don't require me having to have bags upon bags of different gears sets, and then I have to switch between them mid battle.  No.  Just No.


    This post was edited by DragonFist at August 28, 2017 9:33 AM PDT
    • 1692 posts
    August 28, 2017 9:26 AM PDT

    Now that you've elaborated a little I sort of agree. Pantheon will have situational gear but I somehow doubt that swapping full sets regularly will be a staple of the gameplay, and it would get obnoxious fast if that was the case. Being required to swap gear in the middle of combat to adapt to fights would also be very annoying to deal with.

    I will say that there are nefarious means of instantly swapping an entire set of gear instantly in EQ that a significant portion of the playerbase had access to, but even then nobody used it because it had no practical application.

    To me, it seems that we're talking about two slightly different things that are only somewhat related.

    Do we want to be able to swap gear at all while combat is taking place? Probably not, because it'd break the game. I think that's about as far as this discussion goes, really.

    • 206 posts
    August 28, 2017 9:47 AM PDT

    If clickies are in the game and some clickies require that they be worn as EQ1 had, then, yes, I think we should allow it.  The thing that this thread is all about is having a gear auto switch mechanic.  I'm okay with suto switching sets as long as it is out of combat.  If it is going to be in combat then it should have delays/penalties.  I'm okay with quick weapon switching.  I'm not cool with full armour set switching mid battle, especially if that becomes a mechanic of fighting (and if it is allowed, it will become a mechanic of fighting because if it gives a benefit, the player base will use it and now the devs need to start tuning for it).

    • 22 posts
    August 28, 2017 10:13 AM PDT
    I'm in agreement with the sentiment that ir should be allowed outside of combat since there will be situational gear and one may like to carry another weather set to easily switch to without hitting a bank. I mean I'd you want to use the inventory space and carry a bunch of gear why should it take 10 minutes to switch it out?

    As for in combat I think it should have a delay or something especially I'd there is a clickie as previously mentioned. But I've read a lot of comparisons to it being like FFXI and with people wanting it so it adds another dynamic aspect to combat. Well if you're trying to break on the tediousness of 1,2,1,2 combat then quick switching gear relying on macros is just replacing the an ability with a single button macro and you still have the same problem. So it doesn't break up the combat it only forces you to make a bunch of macros you tap instead of tapping abilities. That doesn't change the monotonous tapping of a couple of buttons. If anything it makes you have to do it more. So I'm down for quick switching in certain situations but using it as a combat mechanic seems like a bad idea.
    • 17 posts
    August 28, 2017 10:19 PM PDT

    Why everyone discuss swap gear from the immersion side? Swapping gear ist like Liav said a mechanic nothing more... if people dont like swapping "gear" like boots or mittens it can be implement in a different way! I think here about to swap magical runes or something like that (some kind of magic slots) which will change gear stats... so you can wear all your stuff, let it unswappable and have immersion things ... just only swap the runes. It will be the same mechanic: gear or runes... it doesnt matter, just like a mechanic to make the combats more than a one click immersion.


    This post was edited by lentik at August 28, 2017 11:19 PM PDT
    • 932 posts
    August 29, 2017 9:47 AM PDT

    Pretty sure that is the same thing most on this side of the fence are arguing against. Whether it is gear or some other mechanic it only serves to add more tedium to combat; just another set of buttons to press without making combat any more dynamic. Having to swap gear/runes/whatever constantly in combat to change resistances or buff certain spell types...no thank you. No matter how many layers of buttons/clicks you want to add it will end up no different, a rotation of button presses will be made and followed for most fights with a few priority abilities tacked on. 

     

    If you want combat to be more interesting then we need more intelligent and varied AI. The mobs need to keep players on their toes to break up the common rotation system, they need to act unpredictably at times so that orc A is not necessarily the same as orc B or C. Maybe randomized stats within a range for each and a large pool of possible abilities+passives to spawn with. Maybe you pull a group and find out orc B is immune to CC + ignores taunt and orc C has harm touch so your group has to swap on the fly and take out orc B first, which you then find triggers orc A into a berserker rage.

     

    If combat is going to improve in MMORPGs then it needs to be smarter AI and varied mobs even within a single type. 

    • 13 posts
    August 29, 2017 9:59 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Pretty sure that is the same thing most on this side of the fence are arguing against. Whether it is gear or some other mechanic it only serves to add more tedium to combat; just another set of buttons to press without making combat any more dynamic. Having to swap gear/runes/whatever constantly in combat to change resistances or buff certain spell types...no thank you. No matter how many layers of buttons/clicks you want to add it will end up no different, a rotation of button presses will be made and followed for most fights with a few priority abilities tacked on. 

     

    If you want combat to be more interesting then we need more intelligent and varied AI. The mobs need to keep players on their toes to break up the common rotation system, they need to act unpredictably at times so that orc A is not necessarily the same as orc B or C. Maybe randomized stats within a range for each and a large pool of possible abilities+passives to spawn with. Maybe you pull a group and find out orc B is immune to CC + ignores taunt and orc C has harm touch so your group has to swap on the fly and take out orc B first, which you then find triggers orc A into a berserker rage.

     

    If combat is going to improve in MMORPGs then it needs to be smarter AI and varied mobs even within a single type. 

    100% agreed :)