@Aradune
Thanks for your update and the clearification! Im looking forward to our game, and yes it is important to not recreate a old mmo like it was in any details, because we want also the good mechanics from modern mmos, but last but not least we should look at all mechanics in old mmos to identify all the stuff we should bring in to Pantheon. The switching mechanics and spell strength manipulation mechanics will be a huge step in the right direcation in my opinion and im happy about your statement!
In terms of handling the buttons for switching in things ... i dont know if it was discussed in the past here in the forum, and i want only a suggestion here: maybe a game controller for more relaxing playing in long fights will be fine. I was always sad, that only FFXI had the possibility to use controllers while fighting to switch gear or control macro sets. It was in my opinion another big feature in that game: it is far more enjoyable to sit in front of beamer on the chair, playing my game and have only a game controller to deal with. Shure i need the keyboard to write and communicate outside fights, but in terms of serve and handle the fight itselfe ... it was increddibly fun to play and it was also easy to handle macros sets on different macro strips.
Thanks and best regards :)
Aradune said: ... 5. Switching to your optimial outfit for the next encounter if primarily about Bosses. There could be a dungeon that has a theme to it (say it's really cold). Then you need to prepare before you enter said dungeon. But we're not stopping there -- in different areas of this dungeon there may be different atmosphere/climates. Our dungeons are huge and I don't see why environmental conditions would remain static. And then there's the bosses. It's quite possible one outfit is serving you well in one region of a dungeon, but then you come across a boss mob that changes that equation (by his behavior/disposition, by the types of spells he/she casts (fire based? cold based? ethereal? etc.). So while you're not swapping outfits constantly, encounter to next encounter, making it a hassle, *special* encounters may encourage you to Outfit yourself in a specific way....
And the other big thing, as mentioned, is making the boss mobs require different tactics. Death to tank'n'spank mobs (e.g. simple bosses that just have a ton of HP). That's the lazy way out. In Pantheon you'll need to learn the best tactics for a region or a specific mob. Variety is good. Learning how to overcome a particular environment is key. Not simply employing the same tactics regardless of boss mob is important to us.
And this goes beyond having the best gear for the situation. It goes into having the right abilities prepped, the composition of your group, positioning of your party during the battle, etc. One of our goals is trying to minimize repetition, and that includes there being one or only a few ways to deal with every important mob.
Outside it could mean that you approach an encounter differently depending on weather conditions (again, making E important, not just pretty because we made rain or snow look cool). Inside there could be rooms filled with absolute darkness, or areas of high pressure, etc. Then again add in there different dispositions and behaviors -- having particular mobs choose different tactics during the battle and having to learn the right way to counteract those behaviors is a big part of the game.
...
I see the appeal to the consumer for systems like this, but it's all unraveled by one simple possibility: IF the encounter changes Environment without the opportunity to change equipment or spells.
In my opinion, that severely limits the designers options when designing encounters or content. If you have the options to change equiopment and/or spells IN-combat, then you have significantly greater options. In other words, designers will always _want_ to change Environments mid-fight, but without the mechanics to support allowing the player to adapt to that mid-fight change, it's pure frustration for the customers.
Put another way, I don't think having dynamic encounters without dynamic gear/spells is going to work. This isn't really something that requires testing, it's a logical design issue. You can trivially see the outcome before any content is even created. As the developer, you need to set the design goal before you make the content. Is it a design goal to have players change gear & spells in-combat or not? Based on that, the rest falls into place.
vjek said:I see the appeal to the consumer for systems like this, but it's all unraveled by one simple possibility: IF the encounter changes Environment without the opportunity to change equipment or spells.
In my opinion, that severely limits the designers options when designing encounters or content. If you have the options to change equiopment and/or spells IN-combat, then you have significantly greater options. In other words, designers will always _want_ to change Environments mid-fight, but without the mechanics to support allowing the player to adapt to that mid-fight change, it's pure frustration for the customers.
Put another way, I don't think having dynamic encounters without dynamic gear/spells is going to work. This isn't really something that requires testing, it's a logical design issue. You can trivially see the outcome before any content is even created. As the developer, you need to set the design goal before you make the content. Is it a design goal to have players change gear & spells in-combat or not? Based on that, the rest falls into place.
I don't think that is necessarily true at all, they can still have plenty of encounters that change mid fight without allowing quick swapping of gear. You just have to experience the fight first (or read about it online as most do these days) then plan accordingly. If a boss does fire and switches to water then you maybe go half and half on fire/water resist gear or perhaps you go full fire resist and your group loads up any water warding spells they have to offset the water damage. Your casters having a bit of both opposing magical damage spells to move between during the fight.
Beyond that, I feel that sometimes the player SHOULD be at a disadvantage or otherwise fighting on their back.
vjek said:Aradune said: ... 5. Switching to your optimial outfit for the next encounter if primarily about Bosses. There could be a dungeon that has a theme to it (say it's really cold). Then you need to prepare before you enter said dungeon. But we're not stopping there -- in different areas of this dungeon there may be different atmosphere/climates. Our dungeons are huge and I don't see why environmental conditions would remain static. And then there's the bosses. It's quite possible one outfit is serving you well in one region of a dungeon, but then you come across a boss mob that changes that equation (by his behavior/disposition, by the types of spells he/she casts (fire based? cold based? ethereal? etc.). So while you're not swapping outfits constantly, encounter to next encounter, making it a hassle, *special* encounters may encourage you to Outfit yourself in a specific way....
And the other big thing, as mentioned, is making the boss mobs require different tactics. Death to tank'n'spank mobs (e.g. simple bosses that just have a ton of HP). That's the lazy way out. In Pantheon you'll need to learn the best tactics for a region or a specific mob. Variety is good. Learning how to overcome a particular environment is key. Not simply employing the same tactics regardless of boss mob is important to us.
And this goes beyond having the best gear for the situation. It goes into having the right abilities prepped, the composition of your group, positioning of your party during the battle, etc. One of our goals is trying to minimize repetition, and that includes there being one or only a few ways to deal with every important mob.
Outside it could mean that you approach an encounter differently depending on weather conditions (again, making E important, not just pretty because we made rain or snow look cool). Inside there could be rooms filled with absolute darkness, or areas of high pressure, etc. Then again add in there different dispositions and behaviors -- having particular mobs choose different tactics during the battle and having to learn the right way to counteract those behaviors is a big part of the game.
...
I see the appeal to the consumer for systems like this, but it's all unraveled by one simple possibility: IF the encounter changes Environment without the opportunity to change equipment or spells.
In my opinion, that severely limits the designers options when designing encounters or content. If you have the options to change equiopment and/or spells IN-combat, then you have significantly greater options. In other words, designers will always _want_ to change Environments mid-fight, but without the mechanics to support allowing the player to adapt to that mid-fight change, it's pure frustration for the customers.
Put another way, I don't think having dynamic encounters without dynamic gear/spells is going to work. This isn't really something that requires testing, it's a logical design issue. You can trivially see the outcome before any content is even created. As the developer, you need to set the design goal before you make the content. Is it a design goal to have players change gear & spells in-combat or not? Based on that, the rest falls into place.
Good points and I agree in general: if we change something in-game dynamically, then you guys need to be able to react dynamically (of course, the same is true for NPCs -- if they see you change something (say, weather) dynamically, they may react as well).
@Aradune
Regarding outfit "sets", how much additional work would it be so that when you change outfits the items go back to the location in your bags where you originally placed them (where they were when the set was created)?
Some players, like me, sort their bags a certain way and want items in certain bags. Quick switching is great ... except when the items it takes off go back into the first available bag slot.
bigdogchris said:@Aradune
Regarding outfit "sets", how much additional work would it be so that when you change outfits the items go back to the location in your bags where you originally placed them (where they were when the set was created)?
Some players, like me, sort their bags a certain way and want items in certain bags. Quick switching is great ... except when the items it takes off go back into the first available bag slot.
Too early to promise, but sounds doable and reasonable.
Aradune said: ...Good points and I agree in general: if we change something in-game dynamically, then you guys need to be able to react dynamically (of course, the same is true for NPCs -- if they see you change something (say, weather) dynamically, they may react as well).
Glad to hear it.
Iksar said:vjek said:I see the appeal to the consumer for systems like this, but it's all unraveled by one simple possibility: IF the encounter changes Environment without the opportunity to change equipment or spells.
In my opinion, that severely limits the designers options when designing encounters or content. If you have the options to change equiopment and/or spells IN-combat, then you have significantly greater options. In other words, designers will always _want_ to change Environments mid-fight, but without the mechanics to support allowing the player to adapt to that mid-fight change, it's pure frustration for the customers.
Put another way, I don't think having dynamic encounters without dynamic gear/spells is going to work. This isn't really something that requires testing, it's a logical design issue. You can trivially see the outcome before any content is even created. As the developer, you need to set the design goal before you make the content. Is it a design goal to have players change gear & spells in-combat or not? Based on that, the rest falls into place.
I don't think that is necessarily true at all, they can still have plenty of encounters that change mid fight without allowing quick swapping of gear. You just have to experience the fight first (or read about it online as most do these days) then plan accordingly. If a boss does fire and switches to water then you maybe go half and half on fire/water resist gear or perhaps you go full fire resist and your group loads up any water warding spells they have to offset the water damage. Your casters having a bit of both opposing magical damage spells to move between during the fight.
Beyond that, I feel that sometimes the player SHOULD be at a disadvantage or otherwise fighting on their back.
I agree that players being at a disadvantage is a good thing. The issue with your example is that once you learn the fight, you decide on a strategy and it becomes rinse repeat. Whatever process works "best" is the one that you will replicate every time you face this encounter in the future. I don't really have an issue with it ... I like fights that are really really hard to take down the first time. As it pertains to defeating hard bosses, though, once you down it the first time ... it's usually rinse/repeat every time after. I am hoping to see some "dynamic" combat elements added that break up the monotony of encounters of the past. I like curveballs tossed in mid-fight that people have to adapt to. As Vjek pointed out, if you prevent players from switching gear/spells IN combat, it creates severe limitations on potential encounter designs. The lack of diverse encounter designs seemed to be a big problem in the past, AKA tank'n'spank. I'm sure there are other ways to allow for dynamic combat without allowing mid-combat gear/spell swaps but imposing these limitations on the players also imposes them on the content creators and that doesen't sound too appealing to me.
oneADseven said:I agree that players being at a disadvantage is a good thing. The issue with your example is that once you learn the fight, you decide on a strategy and it becomes rinse repeat. Whatever process works "best" is the one that you will replicate every time you face this encounter in the future. I don't really have an issue with it ... I like fights that are really really hard to take down the first time. As it pertains to defeating hard bosses, though, once you down it the first time ... it's usually rinse/repeat every time after. I am hoping to see some "dynamic" combat elements added that break up the monotony of encounters of the past. I like curveballs tossed in mid-fight that people have to adapt to. As Vjek pointed out, if you prevent players from switching gear/spells IN combat, it creates severe limitations on potential encounter designs. The lack of diverse encounter designs seemed to be a big problem in the past, AKA tank'n'spank. I'm sure there are other ways to allow for dynamic combat without allowing mid-combat gear/spell swaps but imposing these limitations on the players also imposes them on the content creators and that doesen't sound too appealing to me.
That was one example, but by the same means you could still have locked gear in combat and a boss that is different every time (changing elements/damage types/armor type/etc thoughout the fight). No matter what a "best" strategy will be found and mostly followed, even if it ends up being just going in with as best of a mixed resist set to cover all bases or something else.
That said I don't see how that outcome would be any different for open combat swapping (aside from them balancing encounters based on the idea everyone has a set of everything). What ends up (in my mind so feel free to give some examples if you see it different) happening with combat swapping is the same outcome but worse over all in terms of encounter design, because players can have the answer to every situation at their fingertips and each encounter becomes a similar flow of swapping gear to counter the boss/mobs. Boss swaps to fire you click fire resist set, boss then swaps lighting you swap lightning resist, and so on for whatever the situation making it so the player is never truly at much of any disadvantage, never sweating while trying to figure out how to get themselves out of a corner. It's an extra set of buttons that you go through the rinse & repeat for each encounter.
When I think of swapping gear sets in the middle of combat all I can see is them just becoming an extension of the limited action set; defensive "stances" that every class ends up having (and maybe some offensive). Am I missing some key aspect of it here?
I appreciate the response Iksar. The key aspect that I appreciate, with some of those assumptions, is the sense of progression that could be achieved. When encounters can be designed to truly test your ability to enhance a certain resist or stat based on having extra armor/spells to swap, it allows progression to play a key role in the overall difficulty. You mention how players wouldn't truly be at a disadvantage but that would be assuming that they had every single piece of relevant situational gear in the game. Also, it assumes that each player is inclined enough to actually master the art of gear/spell swapping to maximum effect. There would be a curve on pulling it off ... maybe someone accidentally swaps to the wrong set mid-combat as a bad reflex and gets punished for it. I am not a big fan of iLevel progression -- it becomes more of a "farm fest" than a "I want to explore the world and find as many items as possible that could help me in the right situation."
I imagine situations where someone acquires a certain piece of gear and then has an epiphany "This item would be great if I find myself in X situation ... actually, I know exactly where this item would shine." Or maybe they don't ... maybe they just keep a mental note to be on the look out for said situation in the future. By forcing gear determination pre-combat players need to sacrifice some of their "situational progression" ... it becomes a "What's the best set-up considering the obvious restrictions" rather than a "I'm really glad I took the time to acquire both of those breastplates, both of which can be used to great effect in the upcoming battle." Using restrictions as a sense of difficulty is fine but I feel like we would be getting robbed if those restrictions are inherently associated with the progression of our gear/spells. There are limitations that coincide with that decision and I prefer freedom when it comes to creative reign.
The key to situational gear, in my opinion, is creating as many situations as possible. This allows you to attach a real value to every item in the game by making small changes that make them unique. By doing this, you are also making the content associated with that gear more relevant (both the content that drops it, and the content where it can be utilized). The amount of knowledge that would go into creating perfect gear/spell swaps for every situation imaginable is unfathomable. I just want to see meaningful content again ... a rich loot table/economy and I'm really sold on the idea of situational gear ... I just want to see it pulled off better than it has ever been done before.
-1 for killing my dreams of not having to carry around 50 pieces of gear...
I want a donkey that follows me around and carries my stuff. And I want to name him Cheeto. That should make up for it.
Oxillion said:Wont this impact the weight of the character with multiple sets on hand? I like the idea but I thought that encumbered elliments would be in the game?
Ox
There will likely be ways to work around the weight. For instance, mounts could carry extra bags. Magic packs that lower the weight of items in it by a percentage.
I'm not crazy about the idea of full armor set quick switching in combat. There are various reasons already stated in this thread by myself and others. But I'm willing to give it a shot in alpha, etc. I am very concerned about having to lug multiple sets around and that becoming a norm to play with the big boys. I'd rather the dynamic mechanics come from none item, weight and bagspace sources.
I think a good balance can be met in regards to multiple sets. And Im not sure if mid-combat switching is a good fit for Pantheon or not, but It worked well for XI. And like 187 I am a fan of making loot more relevant for longer. Thats a big thing I miss about XI was how very very very long gear was good for due to a shallow item power curve and situational gear. It made questing, crafting, and raiding for gear sets last a lot longer and have more meaning to gear than any other MMO Ive ever played. It makes gear more interesting because its no longer just about going and getting the best staff or chest piece or what have you. Ive seen games that just give you upgraded versions of basically the same stat gear. And Ive seen games offer alternative gear pieces, that are only marginally different. Im kinda tired of it as it simply over-simplifies you gear decisions from what I have seen from other games. The only other way to really make gear more dynamic is to just have it all RNG, but Pantheon isnt that kind of game and it undermines the idea of having Iconic loot that players can aprire to go after.
In FFXI my Ninja had like 5 different normal full sets of gear and 3-4 alternative full sets for special situations (mostly self made sets not dev sets). I spent a lot of blood, sweat and dirt naps collecting that gear over the 10 years I played XI. So a lot of gear still had worth and meaning years after I collected it for situational purposes. And yet new pieces of gear were always welcome to the collection. So its not like I never got or didnt want new gear either.
Im not saying it needs to be that many sets of gear per class to collect, but I wouldnt be opposed to it either. And Im also not saying that dynamic mechanics cant come from other sources. Cant it be multiple things? Gear, atmosphere, behavior and dispositions, colored mana, encounter mechanics, limited spell/skills, resource management, food, potions, a certain amount of OMG RNG madness, etc. I dont want combat to be twitch or actiony, but I do want it to be complex and busy.
Jury is still out for me on in combat gear swapping. As a FFXI vet part of me likes the idea because of the nostalgia and fun I remember from doing it in XI. But the other part of me wonders if it makes sense to have this feature when the devs have been pretty consistant about the idea of being prepared before going into an area or encounter? Limited hotbar, knowing the mobs behaviors/auras/patterns, the right food and potions, and the right gear for the situation. If we can just swap gear/skills mid-combat, does that not undermine the intended challenge of making your choices and living with them. I suppose it depends on what the devs truly intend to do and how complex combat is without in combat swapping.
oneADseven said:I appreciate the response Iksar. The key aspect that I appreciate, with some of those assumptions, is the sense of progression that could be achieved. When encounters can be designed to truly test your ability to enhance a certain resist or stat based on having extra armor/spells to swap, it allows progression to play a key role in the overall difficulty. You mention how players wouldn't truly be at a disadvantage but that would be assuming that they had every single piece of relevant situational gear in the game. Also, it assumes that each player is inclined enough to actually master the art of gear/spell swapping to maximum effect. There would be a curve on pulling it off ... maybe someone accidentally swaps to the wrong set mid-combat as a bad reflex and gets punished for it. I am not a big fan of iLevel progression -- it becomes more of a "farm fest" than a "I want to explore the world and find as many items as possible that could help me in the right situation."
I imagine situations where someone acquires a certain piece of gear and then has an epiphany "This item would be great if I find myself in X situation ... actually, I know exactly where this item would shine." Or maybe they don't ... maybe they just keep a mental note to be on the look out for said situation in the future. By forcing gear determination pre-combat players need to sacrifice some of their "situational progression" ... it becomes a "What's the best set-up considering the obvious restrictions" rather than a "I'm really glad I took the time to acquire both of those breastplates, both of which can be used to great effect in the upcoming battle." Using restrictions as a sense of difficulty is fine but I feel like we would be getting robbed if those restrictions are inherently associated with the progression of our gear/spells. There are limitations that coincide with that decision and I prefer freedom when it comes to creative reign.
The key to situational gear, in my opinion, is creating as many situations as possible. This allows you to attach a real value to every item in the game by making small changes that make them unique. By doing this, you are also making the content associated with that gear more relevant (both the content that drops it, and the content where it can be utilized). The amount of knowledge that would go into creating perfect gear/spell swaps for every situation imaginable is unfathomable. I just want to see meaningful content again ... a rich loot table/economy and I'm really sold on the idea of situational gear ... I just want to see it pulled off better than it has ever been done before.
Hmm, while yes it's true players wouldn't always or often have every single piece of situational gear in the game I imagine the effect is still the same and players would have near as many sets just at various levels of progression toward the set end goal, still leaving them at much less of a disadvantage. Mastering or at least becoming adept at it wouldn't be terribly hard if they are macros unless combat is extremely fast paced (of course mistakes can and do happen to even the best), and as the game would need to be balanced with the swapping mechanic in mind it would lead everyone into doing it.
Item progression would be just as important regardless of closed/open swapping as you'd still need to collect these sets of equipment either way for different content just the same, you just wouldn't be able to access it at any moment. Both are a "farm fest" as either way lists of gear for different resist/other sets become known and players just work their way up the various lists, however when expected to have multiple sets to swap on the fly a greater farming emphasis exists just to keep up. Both end up with fights more or less being dialing into a set forumla that more or less works the same every time; you plan ahead with the best gear you know and abilities needed then go into the fight and adjust as needed or you just go into the fight with a bit less planning, encounter to encounter a routine of similar feeling battles where you swap gear over and over to counter as much as possible. You have the tank who has all the resist sets just swapping away as the fight goes to adjust vs having to plan on having two tanks with different resist sets equipped having to work together to swap aggro at different times in the fight in an attempt to shore up holes in the defense as best they can or bringing more of a class with whatever damage type wards needed for the single tank. More group interaction and dependence. Either side of the coin will find gear and try to figure out where it fits as well
If the devs have to take into consideration every item in the game for every encounter, knowing that they could be at the fingertips of the player at anytime then it would be almost impossible to pinpoint any settings of normal or hard (more or less one of my issues with AA's, but amplified). This leads to encounters being tuned somewhere in-between which is useful for only a very specific audience, too easy for the hardcore/raiders/veterans and too frustrating for the characters on the opposite end - new and/or newly leveled players or those with poor luck getting the gear they need.
We share the same desire to have many different situational equipment sets and for that to be important, of wanting to see truly challenging and finely tuned encounters. I have faith VR will do thorough testing and find out what best fits thier vision...who knows it may just be somewhere in the middle. Something like only have the set of gear you have equipped plus one additional set. Or perhaps they go with allowing two different ability/spell sets you can swap in combat that takes a bit to to change out, to pull a bit away from gear power and lean more into thorough class knowledge and personal class skill...or none of the above!
Either way I am excited to find out!
(TL:DR - I like the old D&D way of doing battle where your wit and and ability to put all your groups skills together was the most important part of a battle, once engaged you were in a fight for your life while stuck with the armor choices you made going in and hoping it was the right gear and that the rolls go your way. I believe it's easier to balance/tune content that way when devs don't have to consider both what each class can do and what they can do with every possible item available to them in the game, allowing the devs to more easily find the ways to have even the best prepared at a disadvantage at times.)
There is perhaps room to debate the 'quickness' in quick-changing though ...
From Brad's description:
a. Save set of gear with name
b. Click change/to -> select gear set to change to
This removes the chore of finding/swapping out each of the 5 items making up my 'cold set'...
... but it doesn't have to be 'instant' does it?
Suggestion : introduce 'put on/wear time' and 'take off/remove time'
1. Plate piece (on=5-9 secs, off=3-5 secs)
2. Chain piece (on=4-7 secs, off=2-5 secs)
3. Leather piece (on=3-6 secs, off=2-4 secs)
4. Cloth piece (on=2-5 secs, off=1-4 secs)
5. Jewellery piece (on=1-4 secs, off=1-4 secs)
6. Weapons (on=1-4 secs, off=1-3 secs)
7. Instrument (on=1-7 secs, tune=0-3600 secs, off=1-4 secs)
Thus in order to equip my 5 piece cloth cold set, it may take 11 secs to remove my current pieces and a further 15 secs to put the 'cold set' on. What this does is merely 'automate' the switching of gear but still imposing a short time cost ... something you might not want to risk if that wandering mob is due back very soon!
NB: The times I state are for illustrative purposes only!
NNB: The ranges in times (eg '5-9 secs') represents the different slots and armour variation within types. I.e.
BP takes longer than greaves, and
Simple breastplate takes less time than a fully-interlocking breastplate designed for jousting armour, and
Long Robes takes longer than a shirt.
Evoras, suspects this may help Bards choose between leather and plate!
I have to say that I am not (currently) a fan of switching different armour sets for different encounters or ever part way through one. If it is what is intended by PRotF then I would urge causion. The act of changing should not be instant. One-click fine, but not instant game time for the equipment to be changed from one set to another.
I agree with Evoras (and others) that the actual act of your character changing their armour should take time, and indeed, even allow characters to be interrupted while they do so.
If you’re in the middle of a fight and decide to employ a different armour set, then get thumped in the process, then I think the change process should be interrupted and you would take the appropriate damage. This would have people scurrying around trying to find a safe place to change stuff and make changing a more thoughtful process. If you are seeking an advantage in a fight, then there should be real jeopardy when you attempt to gain that advantage.
I can see this being an interesting mechanic, if implemented in a very thoughtful way, rather than just providing convenience for convenience sake.
An example of what I mean. If a boss living in icy cave is to be attacked, then all party member don their best fur cladding and begin the assault. The mob defends himself with what is within reach; an ice-steel shield and a hefty ice-steel axe. Now this mob didn't live as long as he has without understanding that the interlopers have him at an advantage and notices that his attacks are being dealt with by the party's equipment, so part way through the mob runs to his armoury and pulls out a nice big sword that instantly bursts into flames.
Now an instant change of gear would make this change in mobs' actions, pointless. It would be much better if the mob returns to the fray before anyone had time to change their kit. Now the upper hand is with the mob. Orders are called out and the off tank pulls away into the corner and changes into heat gear while the others keep the bosses attention. He returns to the fight and takes over. A couple at a time, the other members of the party change their kit and slowly the encounter gets back to an even keel.
IMO a much more satisfying encounter.
I disagree. Again, I prefer freedom over restriction. Spells will be restricted. Group/Raid composition will be restricted. If the only dynamic combat we get is timing/positioning it becomes monotonous. Enabling gear swapping doesen't just magically dumb every encounter down ... there is a very important context to consider, and that's the idea that people have to earn all of the situational pieces that they could swap. Being able to swap to a fire set would help mitigate that aspect of the encounter, yes, but there is still a lot of work (and fun) that goes into acquiring that fire set. It all boils down to having meaningful situational gear. Imposing a restriction on swapping gear reduces the value of some of your gear, period. Again, I understand that some folks embrace the idea of having their back to the wall ... you want to fight an encounter where you can't solve the challenges by swapping gear to mitigate. You get that with spells ... you get it with group/raid composition. If you want to impose that on gear too, so be it, but there are only so many meaningful options tied into progression available.
Personally I like the idea that encounters could be inherently more difficult based on the overall accumulation of situational gear that you have. Players can mitigate certain combat mechanics by having the right pieces, but it makes the content associated with those pieces more meaningful. So theoretically, yes, swapping to your fire set makes it a bit easier to deal with the fire mechanic of a given fight ... but it also makes the act of earning that fire set more meaningful. If you can only choose ice or fire, then not so much. My entire point is predicated on the idea of long term progression and how it can be tied into the "reactive phase" of combat. I am a big fan of deep AA systems. We likely won't have one at launch for Pantheon so I'm really hoping that the "situational gear" aspect of our progression can be a long term project. I don't like finding a new piece that makes the older piece irrelevant. I want items to preserve value ... maybe there is a super rare level 25 ring that still has a use end-game. Gear swapping allows that to happen.
Also, keep in mind that encounters can be designed without rails. There can be random damage types that occur that no amount of planning/gear swapping can mitigate. If anything, it opens up windows where switching to the wrong set at the wrong time could be just as much of a penalty as switching to the right set at the right time would be a bonus. My question is this ... do we want a game where you can acquire a piece that can shine in very limited windows? For example, a low level ring that makes you immune to sleep. The stats are trash so you wouldn't want to have this equipped for the entire fight ... you really only want that sleep immunity effect. I understand that some people might say "Well then you just equip the ring and deal with the reduced stats" ... but you have this other ring that gives bonus damage vs skeletons. This encounter has a bunch of skeletons as well as a sleep mechanic ... which do you choose? The lesser of two evils, obviously.
I would prefer swapping the anti-sleep ring in, as needed, and then going for bonus damage when it's not. It's just my perogative. When I think of situational gear, I want there to be a real sense of rarity to them. For everybody assuming that anybody/everybody can just magically swap to gear sets that will dumb down the encounters, you are missing a major point. This gear should be rare. Acquiring this ring should be a feat in and of itself. Maybe it's worth 100 plat ... (how cool would that be, as a level 25 adventurer that you are lucky enough to find a ring that a max level player would pay an arm and a leg for) -- we aren't talking about WoW where you get a weekly allotment of valor points that you can spend on whatever you want. I'm talking about situational gear that is extremely valuable due to it's rarity/exclusivity. You create small windows of opportunity where the gear can shine, and the content associated with acquiring that gear is immortalized. The more windows of opportunity you create, the more immortalized content there can be. I want to play a game where acquiring this situational gear is a part of the challenge. I don't want every encounter to be dance dance revolution ... I embrace the idea that in order to be optimally effective for Boss X, I must have adventured to the far corners of the world and obtained a bunch of rare, situational gear ... that when used in harmony, will help me with this fight.
I agree, total immunity would be OP. I would prefer an item that casts a small DoT on yourself ... it's a workaround, or a form of emergent gameplay. Most players had no idea what it could be used for then one day someone got the idea ... "Hey, if I cast this on myself prior to being slept, it will wake me up!" It's just one example but these are the kind of situational items that I would love to see, and I think it would be really cool if there were some low-mid level items that retained value later in the game. VR has said many times that Pantheon will be about the adventure and that they want to get away from the idea that the game actually starts at max level. Rare/effective gear that can be obtained in the lower tiers could help accomplish that and be refreshing to see.
To your point though, Amsai, I also agree that diminishing returns and shallow scaling would be ideal. We aren't talking about gear that will trivialize a fight, even if you do get a full set. The idea behind long term progression being tied into situational gear is that it can help provide an edge ... nothing that will make or break a fight. There are plenty of other mechanics that need to be accounted for, but we all know that most players assign a high value to the loot they acquire. Plenty of us remember farming for a piece here or there in whatever game that was special to us ... I just want to see that expanded upon. Rather than having a select few items that can be farmed at a select few locations, expand the system greatly and create hundreds of situational items that can be leveraged in various windows of opportunity. The world would feel so much bigger, and the content more meaningful.
In order for there to be value in acquiring different gear, they need only make challenges that require different approaches. Situational gear isn't made important because of gear swapping & gear swapping doesn't create diversity: everything gets funneled toward a single massive "build", a set of endgame armors that just happens to have 60+ pieces of equipment over a span of mulitple macros. The challenge less in the encounters and more in obtaining a vast amount of items over time.
Having meaningful situational gear and all kinds of rare pieces to seek out is just as or perhaps more important if you can't swap gear on the fly. You have to plan ahead of time - choose the gear most suited for the content, your role, your abilities. You have to actually think a bit and strike a healthy balance between over specializing for one single thing or trying to cover many bases. I think having to do this for each individual zone/dungeon/encounter will take a lot more thought and variation than being able to instantly switch to one of a few optimal sets (however far in progress they are) whenever you want, making content seem less varied as you end up flipping through using the exact same DMG, AC, Resist, Mana Regen, Spell Damage, etc sets regardless of the specific content. Basically the set swapping seems to me that it is more to not choose gear strategically or to have to find a balance and instead a means to find and carry masses of armors to have all choices available to you, change to whatever needed at some exact moment and then switch again.
I'd like the game that makes us think this:
"Hmm, this boss has a cone of sleep attack... Should I equip my sleep immunity ring (or "cursed" ring with a small self DoT) instead of my attack power ring, or should I try to use the attack power ring and do my best to avoid the move?"
instead of
"This boss has a cone of sleep attack. Let me equip my attack ring and then I just fire up my sleep immunity ring macro if he readies it and I won't be able to avoid."