Forums » Pantheon Classes

Defeating Your Enemy

    • 500 posts
    June 20, 2016 2:46 PM PDT

    Hello all,

     

    While this focuses on Healers primarily, it can be valuable for others as well (I'm looking at you Tanks and CCers) 

     

    To be correct while also being polarized is very difficult, but it is something which can be accomplished. As an example: due to earth’s gravity, what goes up must come down. Here is another example …

     

    In an MMORPG, no matter which class you choose to play, you must be able to defeat your enemy.

     

    In the MMO games we have today there is a strange thing which happens when you roll a healer or a tank: the way you play the game changes if you are in a group. Tanks no longer defeat their enemies they just keep their attention, and keep the attention of multiple enemies. Likewise a Healer no longer has to defeat their enemy, they just have to watch a user interface and make sure that the green bar of their allies does not deplete. This change in gameplay is at odds with the player.

     

    If a lone healer heals themselves and does no damage they will eventually lose against their enemy, they must have more than healing. In groups, you should see a class at their 100% effectiveness just like when they play without a group. Here is another example of a statement with big polarity: Each class in the game is built with a way to defeat their enemy. If a healer is fighting an enemy without a group to help them they must use 100% of their abilities to overcome the threat—in a group this is not the case, a healer uses less percentage of their ability.

     

    A good example of a game which gets it right is Neverwinter. Your basic attacks can heal others, you can apply a de-buff which makes anyone hitting the enemy heal themselves. You can do some damage and at the same time heal effectively. These multi-layered abilities create a gameplay which lets a healer feel fulfilled by using everything they have to help their group and while I want to see a lot of dedicated healing abilities, I don’t want to see a class stand back and do NOTHING but wait. I see the Cleric class in Pantheon has the ability to heal while dealing damage, I hope this is something which will be important and used A LOT, but I am concerned it will not, thus this post. This is something I hope Pantheon understands fully and does not forget, otherwise their big step forward could be a big step back.

    -Todd

     

    • 204 posts
    June 20, 2016 8:35 PM PDT

    tehtawd said:

    In an MMORPG, no matter which class you choose to play, you must be able to defeat your enemy.


    Do you mean solo or in a group?

    I personally don't think every class should be able to solo content, but I do agree every class should contribute to DPS or DoT. I'm in no way concerned about tanks in Pantheon, as the games it is being modelled off had the tanks use both physical and spell attacks to generate aggro - thus they did both damage and pulled mobs to them. 

    Healers might be a little more difficult, as they're generally not in melee and whacking things with their weapon. That said, they definitely can and will have offensive spells/prayers such as vows, holy words and conjured weapons.

    In a game that requires a 'holy quaternity' to succeed, there absolutely needs to be a healer whose main role is to keep the meat shield alive. That role is filled by the cleric. If the offensive nature of a cleric isn't enough for someone, one of the other classes might be better suited.

    • 500 posts
    June 20, 2016 9:12 PM PDT

    In a game that requires a 'holy quaternity' to succeed, there absolutely needs to be a healer whose main role is to keep the meat shield alive. That role is filled by the cleric. If the offensive nature of a cleric isn't enough for someone, one of the other classes might be better suited.

    To be clear, the topic is in no way trying to make healing more difficult or less effective.

     

    Example: A lvl 1-5 Cleric uses their melee and spells to defeat their enemies, this includes melee attacks, damaging spells and the cleric healing themselves. When this same Cleric gets into a group their play-style should not dramatically change. They should still be up in the face of the enemy hitting them every chance they get, using damaging spells, and using their heal to heal others or themselves. 

    How this can be accomplished is by looking at multi-layered abilities such as

     

    1) On-hit healing

    2) Damaging spells healing

    3) any combination of damage dealing to increase the effectiveness of healing to help get a Cleric into a minor damage dealing role, or healing giving a temporary but significant damage burst

     

    Don't have time to edit this post at the moment, I may later. Thanks for joining in the conversation.

     

    -Todd

    • 217 posts
    June 21, 2016 8:33 PM PDT

    Having played a cleric in EQ1 for years I can attest to the fact that its sometimes nice to be able to do some damage.  Which I recall I could do.  But my primary responsibility was to manage my mana and insure the survival of the tank/group.

    In EQ1 anyway that often meant not participating in the damge as it could take everything you have to keep everyone alive.  If the group was doing well and incomming damge was low, sure thing I would get up there and melee with the rest of them.   Otherwise my butt was firmly planted in the saddle of my horse or on on the ground to regen mana constantly.  which can be quite boering at times, sure.

    This ability to get up and melee/throw in some nukes or whatever fun gatdgets I could think of was given over time by the aquisition of level, flowing thought gear and bigger mana pool due to better gear.  Which eventually allowed tanking to some degree and playing like a palidin.  Those were always fun groups :P

    Now I could see, in the undead realm anyway, the cleric having the ability to transfer the health of mobs to their group.  Its somewhat necro like, but still might apply to a cleric and the undead.  They should have undead nukes for low mana and high damage, or at least they did in EQ1. Come to think of it, the only class that ever really made sense to heal via damage was the Necro, which also thrive on destroying undead, perhaps more than the cleric does.

    That said, I've soloed as a cleric plenty, its doable but the cleric just isn't a DPS class and your solo options can be somewhat limited by that fact.  In groups, once you've been around the block a few times and have gained some power, sure you may be able to get up there and melee/nuke with no ill effect. 

    I guess I'm just having a hard time with clerics getting heals for doing damage, thats really the realm of the necro and if you did give it to them I couldn't see it being all that powerful.

    My 2cp

    -Az

     

     

     

    • 500 posts
    June 21, 2016 9:43 PM PDT

    Hi Azaya,

     

    I loved reading your post about your experiences with cleric. I could sense there was a lot of fun when dealing damage as well as healing. One of my first healers I played as a Restoration Druid on World of Warcraft during a time they wanted to make sure that healers had something more to do than just heal and wait.

    They allowed my class/spec combo cast ‘wrath’ with zero mana cost. Wrath had no cooldown and was around a 1.5-2.0 second cast. The best part about this was there was a chance on hit to reduce the cost of the next healing spell I cast. It was exciting for me to be able to look forward to those ‘down-time’ moments in a raid fight when I could chain-cast my ‘wrath’ over and over hoping for a proc to allow me to be more efficient a healer. The damage I was dealing was not something I ever payed attention to (It was probably pathetic) but I really appreciated being challenged and given a reward mechanism.

     

    One of my hopes is to eliminate or alleviate the strange difference of gameplay which healers have when they go into groups.

     

    I guess I'm just having a hard time with clerics getting heals for doing damage, thats really the realm of the necro and if you did give it to them I couldn't see it being all that powerful.

    Think of it like this. We already know the Cleric will have a healing ability which is an ‘on-hit’ ability. This is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. While the Cleric has down-time or doesn’t need to be actively healing they are whacking on the enemy and healing with their melee attacks passively. This is a good start.

    What is not ok is the Cleric standing in the back knowing they can use this ability but cannot because they are simply ‘in a group’.

    Let me also be clear, I don’t intend to want the game be catered towards people who want to solo. My goal is fun and rewarding ‘group’ play.

    • 592 posts
    June 22, 2016 5:25 AM PDT

    Iirc EQ clerics at higher levels get a version of their Yaulp spell (short duration str/atk buff) which also increases mana regen. IMO something like this should be in Pantheon early on. Sitting should still be "optimal" for mana regen, but using this ability a cleric should be able to gain maybe 60-70% of their sitting mana regen, thus allowing them to join into melee as long as the incoming damage is not too much.

    • 217 posts
    June 22, 2016 6:24 AM PDT

    Sarim said:

    Iirc EQ clerics at higher levels get a version of their Yaulp spell (short duration str/atk buff) which also increases mana regen. 

    Yes they did and its something I used in those very long fights with heal rotations where no one could sit in between heals. 

     

    • 508 posts
    August 9, 2016 5:33 PM PDT

    I am so sorry for your limited view.  There are far more ways to "defeat" your enemy than just smacking em about the head with a metal stick until they die.  I think maybe you should spend some time in the Enchanter penalty box until you learn what I mean...

    • 109 posts
    August 10, 2016 9:54 AM PDT

    Clerics in general should be limited in the form a dps.  Beat them down, tank them  while healing yourself.  Nuke them if you have a good mana pool. 

    Or go smite undead.  I hear Clerics typically do well against undead.

     

    • 109 posts
    August 10, 2016 12:08 PM PDT

    tehtawd said:

    What is not ok is the Cleric standing in the back knowing they can use this ability but cannot because they are simply ‘in a group’.

    Let me also be clear, I don’t intend to want the game be catered towards people who want to solo. My goal is fun and rewarding ‘group’ play.

     

    A cleric's role in a group is  main healer.  If someone else is main healer, go ahead and nuke and swing away.

    Cleric is a cleric, change it too much and they arent a cleric anymore.

     


    This post was edited by Greattaste at August 10, 2016 12:13 PM PDT
    • 174 posts
    August 10, 2016 4:41 PM PDT

    Healers/buffers/support should have something extra added to them, so theyre involved in the action.

    I hope the UI will be limited so youre engaging with the world and not the little windows.

    • 178 posts
    August 30, 2016 3:12 PM PDT

    I can see where youre coming from on the aspect of needing to do damage to kill things and ultimately be successful.. but you keep bringing up groups and how your role drastically changes.. well thats the importance and the dynamic behind a group.. youre together with more players to take down stronger enemies.  You have a clearly defined role in the class that you play and since everyone is using the cleric example i will too.

     

    If a cleric joins a group and his primary focus switches from himself to others, well his strongest abilities are to keep the group alive; while this may seem boring its probably one of the most important jobs in the group.  If the cleric has to focus on healing and not generating enough hate to pull aggro AND manage his mana where does that leave him room to be in the enemies faces swinging away? I think the important thing is to step back and look at the role youre playing, embrace that role in a group because if you dont you will most likely fail.

     

    On a side note to soloing, i dont think thats the intention they have for this game.  to and extent i do agree even clerics should have soloing ability but for the sake of this game i dont think any class will have the opportunity to solo to max level.  That being said they may have a class like in EQ1 that could solo ala necromancer.. but maybe one.


    This post was edited by Aayden at August 30, 2016 3:14 PM PDT
    • 61 posts
    September 21, 2016 6:29 PM PDT
    Ok here is the thing if you play a healer that should mean you want to heal, if you want to do dps there are plenty of classes for that. I love healing always have always will because I get to choose who lives and dies lol. Every game where they give healers dps it ruins the whole game. I play a support class ie cleric, bard, enchanter, to support the team I am with I don't do damage but I heal them, buff them, give them mana regen so they can do the job that I can't. In EQ very few classes could solo and thus why we always had groups which made us meet more people and essentially made a great community in the game because we needed each other(necro go play by yourself) I don't understand why people always want to solo. If I have to sit around lfg for 15-60 min to find a group I don't care because when I find a group it usually lasts for hours and I can craft or sell items while I'm looking for said group. That's my two cents about it.
    • 687 posts
    September 22, 2016 12:22 AM PDT

    Like what some people have said here i think a clerics opportunity to do dps in groups depends on the group they are with or alternatively the difficulty of the mobs they are facing, if in your group you have an enchanter locking down mobs to the extent that there is little damage being output against the tank and the tank is doing his/her job well and you have mana regen cranking then you will probably have opportunities to do spell based dps, but keeping in mind your dps spells are most likely going to be high mana consumption vs damage compared to your DPS counterparts so in the event the enchanter makes a massive error and things go wrong if the cleric has been using a fair bit of his/her mana on dps and is all of a sudden low on mana both the enchanter and the cleric would be responsible to a degree in the event of death!  I think a big part of the clerics job is to be as mana conservative as possible (whilst keeping people alive) for when things go wrong, thats certainly how i see my job as enchanter, you never know whats around the corner, when an add is going to pop up, when the train is going to be dumped on you by another group running away, when the tank is going to go LD or any multitude of events could happen.  Ultimately a clerics healing mana is far too precious to be using on DPS i think, but in a well oiled machine of a group a bit of cleric DPS here and there is fine.  With each group comes a different dynamic and the opportunity to dps changes with each mob you face too.

    The heal on hit spells while once cast can mean you have a certain amount of time before the next one will also (most likely) be only healing the player for a similar amount of damage value of the hits from the mobs your facing at that given spell level (i hope that makes sense) so really its just an alternative method to one big heal, its most likely going to end up with approximately the same down time / mana consumption based on damage done between casts, this might change if it ends up that you can stack 2 or more types of heal on hit spells at once.

    Regarding soloing I think a cleric will have the capacity to solo but you will also have to get very comfortable with a lot of downtime sitting and medding between pulls, or rooting a mob, moving out of distance, medding a bit and then coming back with some more mana to finish off the job.  It wont be the inability to kill mobs that makes soloing hard but the exhaustion of most of your resources to do so, with the exception on undead i would say. If a cleric can charm undead then well the whole game changes for you completely and cleric is going to become a undead solo master.

    I would say that a healer who wants to do some soloing / a bit of extra damage in group would be best to choose a druid, but thats just based on classic eq classes and may not be the case in Pantheon.

    I think the only way to address the issue you forsee is not to hope the devs making a cleric to be able to successfully do a bit of everything and keep their mana pool up to scratch (because they almost definitely wont be) but for the player to allign themselves with the right players in game so you know that if you are grouped with a quality tank and quality CC and quality DPS players (who dont constantly steal agro and need healing themselves) you will have opportunities to DPS a lot but you still would be best to always have a good quantity of mana in backup for when the excrement hits the fan and save the day and pave your name in game as not the cleric who dps's lots but the cleric who single handedly (almost) never lets his team mates die. :)  Although the Cleric who dps's lots AND never lets his team mates die is also a pretty awesome title :)  but a tough one to pull off in all unforseen circumstances that are likely to spring up in a tough group orientated game like pantheon appears to be.

    One last side note would be... when a cleric/ only healer in group is LoM or OOM pulling / progress almost definitely has to stop.. so using excess mana on DPS may well start to frustrate a group that is powering through kills but constantly stopping for medding.

    • 315 posts
    September 23, 2016 8:16 AM PDT

    I don't beleive it's any ONE's job to defeat an enemy.

    Speaking from a tanks perspective (I was a paladin from 2003-2006 in EQ, then for about the first year and a half in VG) it was never my job to "defeat" an enemy.  If for some reason I could find none of my friends or others to group with I crafted.  I remember a time in VG when I went out hunting with my wife who was a cleric.  Yep, we were able to kill a mob...in 'bout half an hour and I was fine with that.  Neither of us were DPS classes.

    Do I think every class should be able to at least do a little DPS? sure.  I would even be happy with the ability to..."tweak" the class for instance by putting away my sword & board and equip either a 2 hander or pair of weapons if the group makeup or hunting situation allowed for it.  However if I wanted to be able to solo as a tank or even a cleric I'd be playing any of the myriad of E-Z mode games out there right now instead of biding my time waiting to get to testing then playing this game.

    • 564 posts
    November 29, 2016 5:50 PM PST

    tehtawd said:

    In a game that requires a 'holy quaternity' to succeed, there absolutely needs to be a healer whose main role is to keep the meat shield alive. That role is filled by the cleric. If the offensive nature of a cleric isn't enough for someone, one of the other classes might be better suited.

    To be clear, the topic is in no way trying to make healing more difficult or less effective.

     

    Example: A lvl 1-5 Cleric uses their melee and spells to defeat their enemies, this includes melee attacks, damaging spells and the cleric healing themselves. When this same Cleric gets into a group their play-style should not dramatically change. They should still be up in the face of the enemy hitting them every chance they get, using damaging spells, and using their heal to heal others or themselves. 

    How this can be accomplished is by looking at multi-layered abilities such as

     

    1) On-hit healing

    2) Damaging spells healing

    3) any combination of damage dealing to increase the effectiveness of healing to help get a Cleric into a minor damage dealing role, or healing giving a temporary but significant damage burst

     

    Don't have time to edit this post at the moment, I may later. Thanks for joining in the conversation.

     

    -Todd

     

    You see this alot in dungeons and dragons games and it makes people alot more willing to pick healers beyond group value. I do know the devs are implementing an offense target/defense target system which may help make this a reality, you hit the offense target and your defense target gets a heal and chance to dispell his mind freeze.