Forums » The Dire Lord

Harm Touch

    • 88 posts
    May 26, 2016 10:23 AM PDT

    I hope this SK skill transfers to Dire Lords. Although this game will be PvE soley, HT 'made' Shadow Knights in terms of their core.

    • 109 posts
    August 13, 2016 1:51 PM PDT

    There will be a PvP server as per Aradune himself.

    Im sure DLs will get a HT type ability . To me, its a  semi class defining ability.  I know this because my ranger died to many HTs back in the day.


    This post was edited by Greattaste at August 16, 2016 7:33 AM PDT
    • 4 posts
    August 29, 2016 1:22 PM PDT

    I'd like to see a Harm Touch if the Dire Lord is going to be a Shadow Knight class.  Ideally, I'd like to be able to do class-specific quests to improve certain class skills, Harm Touch or Lay on Hands, etc.  I believe HT's damage in classic EQ was your level x 10 + 1.  So level one was 11 damage, level two was 21 damage, and so forth?  I'd like there to be certain quests for classes like Sol Temple, that could turn HT's damage from Level x 10 + 1 into a higher damage base, perhaps Level x 15 + 1 once you completed the quests.


    This post was edited by Vetherian at August 29, 2016 1:24 PM PDT
    • 30 posts
    September 18, 2016 2:46 PM PDT

    Vanguard's Dread Knights had "Word of Doom" and it was pretty powerful once you upgraded it, could one shot a lot of mobs with it (Damage was Intelligence based). I hope, it's an ability you have to gain by defeating or finding some old Dire Lord of past or some Dark fell entity that is terrorizing a village or something like that "Man, I'm getting excited about this class."

    Can't wait to see what these guys have in store.

     

    My question is to the developers, are you guys working on getting "AVAREM" back on the team, lol (He did pretty good by DKs in Vanguard).

    • 10 posts
    November 5, 2016 4:51 PM PDT

    I always love the idea of a Dark Knight/Shadow Knight/Dread Knight. For some reason they aren't ever as satisfying as i'd like. HT ability is really cool and i think its a great idea if implemented correctly. EQ's harmtouch was just too long a recycle. I think every 10 minutes would be fine. Monks mend gave back more HP than an SK would save from HT a mob, and theirs recycled in like 4 minutes...HT 1 game day! Talk about lopsided.

    I think it should have more than just a burst damage clickie. Why not make it a large DD, and some sorta health regen stopping ability as well as reducing armor (i'm thinking along the lines of a decaying touch..hurts, continues to disease and rots your armor off)   This would at least give them an edge in a group.

    • 144 posts
    November 6, 2016 1:42 AM PST

    Totally agree, Tiburon. I think it's safe to assume VR has some interesting new things planned for the Dire Lord. Also, about the DK archetype only very rarely being satisfying - I agree, too. I think it has to do with the fact that they're commonly assigned a tank/lower damage role, when I think their archetype more naturally seems like it'd be higher damage. Dark, vicious blade energy and such. I think that fits with your critique of EQ's harm touch, too.

    • 65 posts
    November 12, 2016 9:48 AM PST

    Tiburon said:

    I always love the idea of a Dark Knight/Shadow Knight/Dread Knight. For some reason they aren't ever as satisfying as i'd like. HT ability is really cool and i think its a great idea if implemented correctly. EQ's harmtouch was just too long a recycle. I think every 10 minutes would be fine. Monks mend gave back more HP than an SK would save from HT a mob, and theirs recycled in like 4 minutes...HT 1 game day! Talk about lopsided.

    I think it should have more than just a burst damage clickie. Why not make it a large DD, and some sorta health regen stopping ability as well as reducing armor (i'm thinking along the lines of a decaying touch..hurts, continues to disease and rots your armor off)   This would at least give them an edge in a group.

    I would tend to agree to this with some tweaking. Granted a 1 day cool down timer is a bit long 10 minutes is far too short. That would make it either very overpowered depending on the spike damage or it would just turn into a rotation when it was up. An hour or longer would be the minimum in my opinion. HT should be a last resort type of situation when you need snap agro on a bad pull or some kind of leech touch to give you a once in a day save if you make a mistake. 

    Back in the day mainly on raids or named mobs i wouldnt even bother using it as the pool of hps was so large it wound up being less than 5 % of the mobs pool. If your going to bring in HT it should mean something when its fired. That means giving it a proper delay of some sort so you cant just spam it every ten minutes for extra dps.

     

    Best thing about HT back in the day was the snap agro you got. It was a wizards nuke on a clean mob. Even after a mez you still had a 80% or higher threshold to work with so you didnt need to build very long before you could light it up. 

    • 15 posts
    April 7, 2017 4:28 AM PDT

    I loved Harm touch but in some cases it felt uber but in most cases it was "why bother". I always felt the HT should have been percentage life type of ability, especially if its on a long EQ type timer. If the damage is lower then the timer can be shorter, maybe even give Direlords two forms of it that you can choose or quest to get. You want the shorter timer but less dmg fine or do you want the im gonna hit a raid mob for a max of 5% of its life in one shot?

     

    And before someone says just bring 20 dires to a raid and win, just put a debuff on the mob that it can only be HTed once then becomes imune to them for a certain amount of time, lets say 2 hours for the general idea. But a 5% kill shot would be awesome to use once every 24 hours. I think I would scale the lower version to be more damaging over time because of the multiple use during a raid.

     

    Example:

    Big nuke: raid mob= 1000000...maxed HT does 50k dmg once every 24 hours

    Small nuke: 5k damage every 10 minutes...

     

    So in this example in a 2 hour raid the small HT does more dmg over the life of the raid, but you dont see the awesome until you get to the big raid target. And the big nuke is only special against the biggest target since its still based on percentage of life, against smaller mobs it would be ok but it would not be meant for that. Granted this would all have to be scaled to the mobs, levels ect in game but that would be my general idea.

    • 65 posts
    April 7, 2017 7:01 PM PDT

    Or better yet make all raid bosses immune to HT if in fact its something we get as an ability.

    • 122 posts
    April 9, 2017 7:55 AM PDT

    I think making raid bosses immune to one of our class defining abilities would be bad.  I imagine it will be a big part of your strategy when main tanking a raid boss.

    • 15 posts
    April 10, 2017 3:39 PM PDT

    Filzin said:

    I think making raid bosses immune to one of our class defining abilities would be bad.  I imagine it will be a big part of your strategy when main tanking a raid boss.

     

    I agree wholeheartedly. A few mobs, especially those with lore implications that smooths it over, is fine. But all raid boss fights being immune starts leading to "this class cant tank the boss" conversations. Like paladin stuns that don't work on raid bosses.

    • 65 posts
    April 12, 2017 10:09 PM PDT

    Filzin said:

    I think making raid bosses immune to one of our class defining abilities would be bad.  I imagine it will be a big part of your strategy when main tanking a raid boss.

    I dont think HT on a boss would make much of a diffrence in either case. If HT is part of your strat for beating a boss in the first place......you should find a new raid leader.

    • 65 posts
    April 12, 2017 10:18 PM PDT

    Benjones said:

    Filzin said:

    I think making raid bosses immune to one of our class defining abilities would be bad.  I imagine it will be a big part of your strategy when main tanking a raid boss.

     

    I agree wholeheartedly. A few mobs, especially those with lore implications that smooths it over, is fine. But all raid boss fights being immune starts leading to "this class cant tank the boss" conversations. Like paladin stuns that don't work on raid bosses.

    Even going back to EQ several bosses were immune to stun and HT and other things. What Verant didnt do was block the agro for using these abilities. Thus the damage was blocked but the proc agro still would generate. No reason to say they couldnt do that with this game. 

    We dont know if its even an ability Dire Lords will have. THat being said we can take that further and say we dont know what the limitations on it will be if we do have it. There were two times i used it for raids specificly. The first being if i was the off tank who was going to take the death kill hit. I would burn it for that because why not. The second was basicly using leechtouch during several encounters where the boss cast a raid wide AE dot. Helped heailers a tad as well as giving me the ability to off tank for a few seconds before i blew fd and droped agro back on the MT.

    Its not a make or break spell of the class for me at least. I remember not using it more often than using it.

    • 122 posts
    April 15, 2017 6:20 AM PDT

    Dkeesling007 said:

    Filzin said:

    I think making raid bosses immune to one of our class defining abilities would be bad.  I imagine it will be a big part of your strategy when main tanking a raid boss.

    I dont think HT on a boss would make much of a diffrence in either case. If HT is part of your strat for beating a boss in the first place......you should find a new raid leader.

     

    When main tanking. I was thinking more aggro related than as a killing blow, but thanks for straightening me out.

    • 452 posts
    April 17, 2017 4:31 AM PDT

    Looks like some people are going a bit over board with the HT/DT ability line.  Yes is an okay feature that they had in their arsenal, and i can see it be useful in most grp content but i believe it should have little impact on raid content.  Also we have to remember DL our a tank class and so we should be treated like one, so we shouldn't be seeing massive damage coming from our side of the table, just a lot of aggro so the ones that are doing more damage can do so if not catching aggro so they can continue to do so.  and the HT on a 1 day cycle was fine after a while it was used from time to time but normally when you wanted to use it, it was always up.


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at April 17, 2017 4:33 AM PDT
    • 452 posts
    April 17, 2017 12:10 PM PDT

    Filzin said:

    Dkeesling007 said:

    Filzin said:

    I think making raid bosses immune to one of our class defining abilities would be bad.  I imagine it will be a big part of your strategy when main tanking a raid boss.

    I dont think HT on a boss would make much of a diffrence in either case. If HT is part of your strat for beating a boss in the first place......you should find a new raid leader.

     

    When main tanking. I was thinking more aggro related than as a killing blow, but thanks for straightening me out.

    If your talking about Main tanking on raid bosses i believe this should be a warrior only responsibility, not trying to down the DL's capabilities but if you decide to be a Warrior and have no spells, and maybe just a few skills or disc compared to a knight's abilities of doing a whole lot more than one thing they shoud get is being able to tank raid bosses where as the knights should not.

    • 10 posts
    April 17, 2017 9:57 PM PDT

     

    If your talking about Main tanking on raid bosses i believe this should be a warrior only responsibility, not trying to down the DL's capabilities but if you decide to be a Warrior and have no spells, and maybe just a few skills or disc compared to a knight's abilities of doing a whole lot more than one thing they shoud get is being able to tank raid bosses where as the knights should not.


    Highly disagree, encounters should/could be built with an optimal tank in mind, but I believe all should tank respectively well on major bosses. The warrior only MT scenario is poor on many fronts. I agree all tanks should have a niche to fill, but making it so only warriors can tank raid mobs is bad by design. Eventually this limits guilds accepting specific classes, skews loot rewards and penalizing people for class choices, limit class raid attendance...list goes on and on.

    Just because warriors may not have some spells or utility the knight classes do, doesn't mean they can't make up for it in other ability related skills, that aren't "im the quintessential tank" and must be used in every encounter.

     

     

    Also from above, HT is every 72mins in EQ so essentially 1 hour. @ level 60 HT does all of ~1300dmg. A regular KC drolvarg sentry has 5800hp, even with a 10 minute timer you aren't exploiting anything with it. If it's going to be a class defining skill, at least it should be one regularly usable...

    If, its meant as a one time superpunch then at least make it count, and be completely unresistable. As stated above its worthless on raids as it doesn't scale, nor could you even use it as an agro retainer effectively as most bosses resist and don't accrue any agro from it.

        


    This post was edited by Tiburon at April 17, 2017 9:59 PM PDT
    • 452 posts
    April 18, 2017 9:11 AM PDT

    Tiburon said:

     

    If your talking about Main tanking on raid bosses i believe this should be a warrior only responsibility, not trying to down the DL's capabilities but if you decide to be a Warrior and have no spells, and maybe just a few skills or disc compared to a knight's abilities of doing a whole lot more than one thing they shoud get is being able to tank raid bosses where as the knights should not.


    Highly disagree, encounters should/could be built with an optimal tank in mind, but I believe all should tank respectively well on major bosses. The warrior only MT scenario is poor on many fronts. I agree all tanks should have a niche to fill, but making it so only warriors can tank raid mobs is bad by design. Eventually this limits guilds accepting specific classes, skews loot rewards and penalizing people for class choices, limit class raid attendance...list goes on and on.

    Just because warriors may not have some spells or utility the knight classes do, doesn't mean they can't make up for it in other ability related skills, that aren't "im the quintessential tank" and must be used in every encounter.

     

     

    Also from above, HT is every 72mins in EQ so essentially 1 hour. @ level 60 HT does all of ~1300dmg. A regular KC drolvarg sentry has 5800hp, even with a 10 minute timer you aren't exploiting anything with it. If it's going to be a class defining skill, at least it should be one regularly usable...

    If, its meant as a one time superpunch then at least make it count, and be completely unresistable. As stated above its worthless on raids as it doesn't scale, nor could you even use it as an agro retainer effectively as most bosses resist and don't accrue any agro from it.

        

    You are a Hybrid between a Necro/Warrior so thinking you can do everything a warrior can do seems to be unfair to the ones who pick warriors and would eventually make them unexsistant if you dont give them something big since they cant use spells.  and plus like i said a HYBRID, you choose to become this and you will have plenty of strengths because f it but to think you can so something better than a pure class in simply unrealistic.  Also SK's were great at tanking mini raids bosses that hit hard but not so hard there taps along with a decent heal from healer they couldn't live thtough in fact there were the best at it even better than warriors because of there lifetaps, pallies were the best ramp tanks and believe be is was a great thing they were they were essential in a lot of ramp tanking fights becuase the way they could heal themselves to survive the hits and after a while they got the DA hammer which procced DA on them and cuase them to have invulability for a certain period of time which was a class defining item for them which made them even better than they were at ramp tanking than they alrdy were.  These for just a few instances where the knights out shined the warriors and believe me there are a ton more, and this was with Warriors being the only MT's and the SK's definately was a well over played class and warriors were still scraping across the bottom of the barrel.


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at April 21, 2017 8:46 AM PDT
    • 46 posts
    April 23, 2017 3:11 PM PDT

    Perhaps I am not digesting the conversation correctly, or looking at it from the wrong angle.

     

    In regards to Pantheon, while the "X encounter may prefer Y tank" is something at large until release, all tanks will be fairly equal in regards to overall ability. That is per Aradune. Please refer to my thread here that I am keeping up to date with relevant quotes from developers for more on that matter. But again, in terms of Pantheon I am sure just like most MMOs there will be encounters or tiers that perhaps favor the warrior, paladin, or dire lord because of a few abilities that just really shine under certain circumstances. If you're looking for the warrior to be a 10/10 tank and the knights coming in at 8/10 because of "other" abilities, then you're looking at the wrong game.

    • 452 posts
    May 3, 2017 9:56 AM PDT

    Faelor said:

    Perhaps I am not digesting the conversation correctly, or looking at it from the wrong angle.

     

    In regards to Pantheon, while the "X encounter may prefer Y tank" is something at large until release, all tanks will be fairly equal in regards to overall ability. That is per Aradune. Please refer to my thread here that I am keeping up to date with relevant quotes from developers for more on that matter. But again, in terms of Pantheon I am sure just like most MMOs there will be encounters or tiers that perhaps favor the warrior, paladin, or dire lord because of a few abilities that just really shine under certain circumstances. If you're looking for the warrior to be a 10/10 tank and the knights coming in at 8/10 because of "other" abilities, then you're looking at the wrong game.

    Not exactly what i was getting at in fact fell short on a lot of things paladins/shadowknights had in EQ but one thing they did have was disciplines that made them take hits better than them as well, but lacked in casting spells/snap aggro/ways to heal themselves/cuase more damage/stuns/roots/slows/DoTs/DA/FD and a lot more of things these knights had compared to a warrior, and if they can get these back split between the 2 classes and the warrior just remands a warrior with simple attacks and a few other abilities than they should remand as being the primary MT and DL/PAL remain primary MA's is only seems right in my way of thinking, The hybrids are still great tanks and will be sought after even in raid even if they can't MT, like they are still in EQ.

    • 49 posts
    May 10, 2017 11:12 AM PDT

    In my experience...

    When I played a Shadowknight (P99) up to 51 or 52 I had one main issue with the skill "Harm Touch". Yes it was a powerful skill, somewhat. But it could fail to hit due to the resists and the cooldown was insane for such "low" damage. I can't remember whether it was 30 minutes or 60 minutes but for a spell that could miss I was simply flabbergasted.

    During my playthrough, I tried using that skill but many times over as I progressed in levels I had decided to simply put it on the side as I couldn't deal with the whole "Get resisted Son!"

    There is a happy inbetween to make everyone satisfied. It's a spell that many players who played as a SK would enjoy more if it was tweaked in a way. Nothing broken, nothing bad. Just good.

     

    5 Mins CD: 500 Damage + Int Modifier (If it should apply) Unresistable.
    Debuff : 6 Mins, another Harm Touch wouldn't affect it.
    Additional Effect : Hell of a lot of Aggro.

    No spamming of the skill, possibility of aggro snapping with it. I don't know, just throwing ideas out there.

    • 10 posts
    May 10, 2017 7:52 PM PDT

     

    You are a Hybrid between a Necro/Warrior so thinking you can do everything a warrior can do seems to be unfair to the ones who pick warriors and would eventually make them unexsistant if you dont give them something big since they cant use spells.  and plus like i said a HYBRID, you choose to become this and you will have plenty of strengths because f it but to think you can so something better than a pure class in simply unrealistic.  Also SK's were great at tanking mini raids bosses that hit hard but not so hard there taps along with a decent heal from healer they couldn't live thtough in fact there were the best at it even better than warriors because of there lifetaps, pallies were the best ramp tanks and believe be is was a great thing they were they were essential in a lot of ramp tanking fights becuase the way they could heal themselves to survive the hits and after a while they got the DA hammer which procced DA on them and cuase them to have invulability for a certain period of time which was a class defining item for them which made them even better than they were at ramp tanking than they alrdy were.  These for just a few instances where the knights out shined the warriors and believe me there are a ton more, and this was with Warriors being the only MT's and the SK's definately was a well over played class and warriors were still scraping across the bottom of the barrel.

     

    You quite obvoiusly didn't ever play an SK in EQ, least not in the time period when warriors got defensive. SKs could in no way lifetap themselves to stand up to any raid target. Your choices in taps were 338hp in a SIX SECOND cast...good luck with that on mobs that hit for 900+. OR a 280hp tap that was a useful 2.5 seconds, however it had a 3 minute cool down...whole lotta good that's gonna do ya.

    I understand they are a hybrid and they get spells, and i do believe the warrior should be compensated, i just believe it should be in a different manner than being the "only tank" to tank raid mobs.

     

    Also a piece of equipment should never solidify ones class. also also, DA drops all agro from the mob while its up so tanking with that would be futlie, the mob would immedately attack the next person on the hate list.

    • 153 posts
    May 10, 2017 9:34 PM PDT

    The other way to look at a DL is that they're not a hybrid, but rather a tank (along with warrior and Pally). All three classes should be capable of tanking bosses/raid content - they just all do it in different ways. A warrior will use his skill at arms to smooth out incoming damage and thus be able to tank longer without too much effort. They will likely have other advantages (such as party shouts to increase speed etc) to bring to the party. A DL, while not quite as effective at smoothing out damage, will use her spells to debuff mobs and lifetap to heal and thus be able to tank just as effectively as a warrior, albeit in a different way. A Paladin, like the DL, will not be as effective at smoothing out incoming damage as a warrior, but will use their party buffs and healing spells to mitigate that damage and reach the tanking effectivenress of the warrior.

    All tanks. All different. All effective.

    • 452 posts
    May 11, 2017 8:31 PM PDT

    Tiburon said:

     

    You are a Hybrid between a Necro/Warrior so thinking you can do everything a warrior can do seems to be unfair to the ones who pick warriors and would eventually make them unexsistant if you dont give them something big since they cant use spells.  and plus like i said a HYBRID, you choose to become this and you will have plenty of strengths because f it but to think you can so something better than a pure class in simply unrealistic.  Also SK's were great at tanking mini raids bosses that hit hard but not so hard there taps along with a decent heal from healer they couldn't live thtough in fact there were the best at it even better than warriors because of there lifetaps, pallies were the best ramp tanks and believe be is was a great thing they were they were essential in a lot of ramp tanking fights becuase the way they could heal themselves to survive the hits and after a while they got the DA hammer which procced DA on them and cuase them to have invulability for a certain period of time which was a class defining item for them which made them even better than they were at ramp tanking than they alrdy were.  These for just a few instances where the knights out shined the warriors and believe me there are a ton more, and this was with Warriors being the only MT's and the SK's definately was a well over played class and warriors were still scraping across the bottom of the barrel.

     

    You quite obvoiusly didn't ever play an SK in EQ, least not in the time period when warriors got defensive. SKs could in no way lifetap themselves to stand up to any raid target. Your choices in taps were 338hp in a SIX SECOND cast...good luck with that on mobs that hit for 900+. OR a 280hp tap that was a useful 2.5 seconds, however it had a 3 minute cool down...whole lotta good that's gonna do ya.

    I understand they are a hybrid and they get spells, and i do believe the warrior should be compensated, i just believe it should be in a different manner than being the "only tank" to tank raid mobs.

     

    Also a piece of equipment should never solidify ones class. also also, DA drops all agro from the mob while its up so tanking with that would be futlie, the mob would immedately attack the next person on the hate list.

    You sir are actually wrong on both accounts.  I said mini raid bosses, there weren't many of them but they could tank them, Lcae Katta they could tank, Along with some of the minis in Akceha Ruins they could tank, basically targets that warrior didn't need to use defensive on an SK could tank better than they could through there healing and snap aggro, And Ramp tanking list is the person person to cause threat to him is on top of his Ramp list so even when DA pops he will still be first on his list, he will only lose this if he dies, zones.  Your thinking of Highest threat aggro which is much idfferent since a mob won't Ramp Hit the person he has aggro on.  I also didn't say it solidified there class, merely a class defining item, they didn't have to get it, but it made no sense to not get it at the same time.  it was just one of those items you saw where if you see someone with it and your like i WANT to get that not nesscarly i NEED to get that.


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at May 11, 2017 8:34 PM PDT
    • 1 posts
    May 28, 2017 7:03 AM PDT

    I am not sure if this has been suggested... Why not allow an option to inflict a powerful debuff for a short duration (1-2 minutes?). This could allow multiple dire lords to coordinate their abilities in a raid if HT damage elicited an immunity timer on a raid target.

    That could provide justification to allow a damaged based HT to be a little overpowered and on a timer (For PvE)