Feyshtey said:I agree that the min/max thing can and sometimes does go too far. But I dont think it's unreasonable for a guild to want to ensure that inviduals are pulling their weight. Especially when a couple of dozen people are relying on someone to fulfill their role.
Totally agree, i am not against log parsing or even addons to a certain extent as long as the content itself is challenging.
Give the players the tools to become lazy and they will surely make use of it. WoW proved it more than once. Their API was misued and abused so many times that I can't count. Sometimes, the devs decided it went too far and restricted the API. For instance, they stanced against add-ons that allowed you to draw directly in the 3D world, which enabled the ability to draw "red circles where you musn't go" during a boss fight. On many other cases though, they decided that "if 95% of our playerbase uses this addon, then it's mandatory and we must include it in the base game".
One could argue that they just improved the user experience, basing directly on their player's feedback. I, however, will say that they let the players themselves dumb down the challenge on many occasions (aggro indicators, ennemy HP fully displayed in the UI, tooltips telling you which mob to kill in order to complete each quest, quest objectives directly displayed on the minimap with an arrow telling you where to go, all of the infamous "DBM" that tells you step-by-step what to do and where you must stand during a fight so that you never have to think about what to do, etc...), they approved it, and made it as the base, trivializing the entire experience for everyone.
UI improvements should always be discussed thoroughfully between the players and the devs. Sometimes there is room for an improvement, but it should be considered very carefully regarding its unforeseen consequences. Anything that could potentially lead to bypassing meaningful social interactions should be immediately rejected without second thought. In the end, I believe the magic wand shall remain in the devs hands, never the players'. It's a perfect case where "the client doesn't really knows what he wants, even though he thinks he does."
Kilsin said:Dreconic said:Aradune said:The plan is a customizable UI and then being very careful about the data we send to the client so that third party apps that intercept that data won't be very useful.
some information is nice to have in case of DPS etc. While I hate the "I do more dps then you and the meter says so" mentality of WoW, Rift, WS etc. I do like being able to test my own rotations, seeing what is the best burst DPS, 60-second burn, sustained burn etc.
I hope this game will put more credence in being in/at the right spot at the right time and doing the right thing at the right time rather than the straight DPS fest that most end game dungeons/raids have turned into. Fights in EQ, especially in the PoP-PoR phase (maybe further but never really made it past PoR myself) had really good mechanics that made the force do more than just DPS burn. VG did a good job of this also on most of its fights.We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG. We do not want o see external DPS and Aggro meters. :)
I like this. I didn't use parsing all the time in VG, but one part I did enjoy was reviewing raid parsing on new fights to learn and improve. Nerding out on new raid content in spreadsheets is fun. To imac with you nay-sayers! (I kid, I kid)
Reht said:No, it's not exactly the same. Addons for games like WoW, Rift, ESO, GW2 etc. are built using a macro/scripting language (see WoW LUA for an example) that are added directly into the game as in-game functioning elements which can receive a wide variety of the data directly from the game servers via API not logfiles.
I've written public LUA add-ons for several MMO's, so I know exactly what you're describing.
However, any game with a client side log file that is created in real time can be used for real time analysis. My point was that at a minimum, no matter what else is NOT provided as far as API goes, that will be possible if there is a client side log file of any kind. Think of it as the bare minimum baseline.
All the wishing in the world isn't going to make real time parsing go away. Even if they limit my data to my damage only, I'll still parse and post it. And my guildmates who like to min/max will as well. We will compare and find out why one of us is vastly more effective in our role than another, so that we can all be that effective in our role.
It's not all bad news when players parse. In dozens of cases in EQ2, it was only after many players had parsed and posted that developers acknowledged there was a bug in certain spells, skills, abilities, zones, fights, etc. As in, parsing the client side log file directly lead to fixing bugs in the game.
You could argue that "the devs have access to that data on the server" and sure, maybe they do. But they certainly don't have the time, inclination, determination, or drive that one thousand paying customers have. In EQ2's case, for example, the devs had the data. They didn't have the time to look at it. 10, 100 or 1000 players did. They posted, bugs got fixed. Sure, rarely, people might say "Hey, vjek, you suck, you're only doing 400 dps, I'm doing 401 dps, are you sleeping over there?" but I haven't personally seen that in the past 10 years. :)
vjek said:I've written public LUA add-ons for several MMO's, so I know exactly what you're describing.
However, any game with a client side log file that is created in real time can be used for real time analysis. My point was that at a minimum, no matter what else is NOT provided as far as API goes, that will be possible if there is a client side log file of any kind. Think of it as the bare minimum baseline.
All the wishing in the world isn't going to make real time parsing go away. Even if they limit my data to my damage only, I'll still parse and post it. And my guildmates who like to min/max will as well. We will compare and find out why one of us is vastly more effective in our role than another, so that we can all be that effective in our role.
It's not all bad news when players parse. In dozens of cases in EQ2, it was only after many players had parsed and posted that developers acknowledged there was a bug in certain spells, skills, abilities, zones, fights, etc. As in, parsing the client side log file directly lead to fixing bugs in the game.
You could argue that "the devs have access to that data on the server" and sure, maybe they do. But they certainly don't have the time, inclination, determination, or drive that one thousand paying customers have. In EQ2's case, for example, the devs had the data. They didn't have the time to look at it. 10, 100 or 1000 players did. They posted, bugs got fixed. Sure, rarely, people might say "Hey, vjek, you suck, you're only doing 400 dps, I'm doing 401 dps, are you sleeping over there?" but I haven't personally seen that in the past 10 years. :)
Gotcha! And totally agree with the highlighted, same with EQ1 in many cases.
I've been skimming through this topic, and I'm wondering if the idea of "third-party add-ons" has different interpretations, like we saw in the discussions about boxing. To some people, boxing means cheating -- period, end of discussion. To others, it's either a way to buff a party or raid, play while waiting for friends, or dealing with social anxiety disorder/autsim spectrim but still wanting to play in a larger community. Here, it seems like there are some people in the camp that third-party add-ons are hacks and cheats, while other people see them as a fun, interesting or useful way to see how you're doing from a technical perspective.
Maybe we should look at it this way: Since Pantheon is meant to be a true MMO with no instances, there shouldn't be open modding that would make the actual world of the game look any different than anyone else's. That should be reserved for games like Skyrim, Minecraft and other games that are designed specifically to be played as individuals and enhanced and enjoyed by the community in that way. I think that's what some people think of when they think of third-party add-ons.
When it comes to UI -- specifically what information is displayed on the screen, not the interaction with the world itself -- there should probably be a bit of leeway with third-party add-ons. These add-ons usually come from a desire to make something more accessible, and not necessarily something to cheat. Add-ons that make text larger for visually impaired people or adjusts colors for color-blind people (just examples -- I think VR said they are going to include these features) and others that do not give anyone an advantage in gameplay should be considered permissible.
Then, there's a difference between using client-side data to learn about your character's build from a technical standpoint and using the game's data to create bots, cheats and other game-breaking issues. They all use data from the program itself, but as others have said, learning about your own DPS should be available if people wish to download it into a spreadsheet and analyze it. There are some people who LOVE playing MMOs this way. There are some people who LOTHE playing MMOs this way. But if the stats geek (saying that in the most loving, respectful way) uses their stats in such a way that doesn't interfere with others' gameplay, then there shouldn't be anything wrong with it. On the other hand, any data mining that could potentially undermine gameplay or give someone an advantage should be banned.
Reht said:I think is a really solid idea, but it would have to be implemented in-game. If it's output to a log file, someone just would end up making an app to merge individual log files and that would probably become standard use for most guilds or they would require screenshots and really wouldn't mitigate people's concerns.
Yes but the idea is to make it as difficult as possible for those people, so that as few guilds as possible adhere to this kind of thing. I know I'd personally either just not be a part of those guilds or tell them mine doesn't work for some reason. I'd suddenly become completely inept at computers. Maybe I "can't" open or forward a port or something along those lines.
Spending countless hours in the guild hall testing rotations and gear(see which stat was best once over soft cap) I can honestly say not being able to have a parser is going to diminish my enjoyment of the game.
If you don't like them then dont download the program. If you dont like "elitists" guilds then dont join one. I get other mods that tell you where to stand/get in/get out ETC not being allowed because it trivializes content.
Easily knowing how much damage you are doing should be common knowledge.
beautifully said:Spending countless hours in the guild hall testing rotations and gear(see which stat was best once over soft cap) I can honestly say not being able to have a parser is going to diminish my enjoyment of the game.
If you don't like them then dont download the program. If you dont like "elitists" guilds then dont join one. I get other mods that tell you where to stand/get in/get out ETC not being allowed because it trivializes content.
Easily knowing how much damage you are doing should be common knowledge.
They won't be allowing addons ..according to what's been said already.
beautifully said:Spending countless hours in the guild hall testing rotations and gear(see which stat was best once over soft cap) I can honestly say not being able to have a parser is going to diminish my enjoyment of the game.
If you don't like them then dont download the program. If you dont like "elitists" guilds then dont join one. I get other mods that tell you where to stand/get in/get out ETC not being allowed because it trivializes content.
Easily knowing how much damage you are doing should be common knowledge.
This is like saying, "If you don't like working, quit your job. If you don't like having to get up in the morning and make your morning commute, quit your job."
Things like this don't stay "optional" any more than driving to work and working is "optional" for most people.
There will be a log. You can parse the log like they did in the old days. It doesn't have to be in the game in the UI for everyone to crybaby because the enchanter who was doing CC wasn't doing enough DPS. Or the backup healer overhealed on someone (the horror).
People will actually have to communicate instead of looking at bars that tell them someone's already healing.
I suppose it's the right time to say, "If you don't like it, don't play the game"? Or maybe it's time for "let them eat cake" :p
In order to maintain a healthy atmosphere (mood) ingame and keep social contacts fun,
Agro and DPS meters should lose their purpose.
I believe these meters are a consequence of the main problem;the focus on/the importance of killing fast.
If you want to combat the effect(games governed by gearscore and dps/aggro meters) you have to deal with the cause (the importance of gear tiers and stats with damage-only focus)
What can be done to stop the importance of aggro and DPS meters is giving weight to other areas of the game.
For example,introducing winter and summer gear to protect from certain conditions which affect stats,hit rating etc.
Suddenly we gain a new game aspect to aid-govern the game;environment.So we alter the problem at the source and suddenly the effect is gone as all the combat information should be seen in the right context and environment
If you want to kill the weed you do not have to cut one leaf,but you have to destroy the roots.
Thus environment becomes really important and players have to pay attention to that instead too.A real ingame thing to pay attention to,really affecting their stats.
-Preventing aggro and dps meters being used, done
as their purpose is defeated and the information gained by it is irrelevant as there are so many other factors that are as important
Also believe environment can bring players closer together socially,pretty much like how we get closer to each other when we are cold.
Xxar said:So I guess my question is going to be a flat out request for information. Will there be a combat log that is readable ? If the answer is yes, will things like Advanced Combat Tracker be allowed ? It simply gives a time based break down of skill/spell rotations based on the combat file and provides a dps graph in real time.
It does not inject anything into the client , but simply reads the log file.
That is all I want to know.
We have stated several times that we will (and currently do) send combat logs tot he chat box which people can use to parse. What and how much data we specifically send will be determined through testing.
Reht said:Kilsin said:Third party Add-ons, it's in the title man, I am not sure where the confusion is coming from?
I recalled something from VG's gameplay/raiding, I was explaining that in VG we had an in-game audio cue on rare occasions from the named mobs themselves casting spells, they also had visuals and emotes all for the same action, so whether you were deaf, blind or had some other disability or impairment, everyone had equal chance to react accordingly and that is very different from automated program cues that read data for you and sounds an alert to signal you to react instead of paying attention yourself, which I am against. ;)There is no confusion except possibly on your part. I am and have been talking about third party addons, particularly Gamtexttriggers and GINA and the differences between mechanic notification systems, one of which gave birth to those two programs (and why) and some of their pros and cons.
Well, then your question/discussion has been answered long ago, we will not support third party add-ons, period, run them at your own risk. ;)
Fluffy said:In order to maintain a healthy atmosphere (mood) ingame and keep social contacts fun,
Agro and DPS meters should lose their purpose.
I believe these meters are a consequence of the main problem;the focus on/the importance of killing fast.
If you want to combat the effect(games governed by gearscore and dps/aggro meters) you have to deal with the cause (the importance of gear tiers and stats with damage-only focus)
What can be done to stop the importance of aggro and DPS meters is giving weight to other areas of the game.
For example,introducing winter and summer gear to protect from certain conditions which affect stats,hit rating etc.
Suddenly we gain a new game aspect to aid-govern the game;environment.So we alter the problem at the source and suddenly the effect is gone as all the combat information should be seen in the right context and environment
If you want to kill the weed you do not have to cut one leaf,but you have to destroy the roots.
Thus environment becomes really important and players have to pay attention to that instead too.A real ingame thing to pay attention to,really affecting their stats.
-Preventing aggro and dps meters being used, done
as their purpose is defeated and the information gained by it is irrelevant as there are so many other factors that are as importantAlso believe environment can bring players closer together socially,pretty much like how we get closer to each other when we are cold.
This is the first time I've agreed with you Fluffy. Thank you :)
Cana
Kilsin said:Xxar said:So I guess my question is going to be a flat out request for information. Will there be a combat log that is readable ? If the answer is yes, will things like Advanced Combat Tracker be allowed ? It simply gives a time based break down of skill/spell rotations based on the combat file and provides a dps graph in real time.
It does not inject anything into the client , but simply reads the log file.
That is all I want to know.
We have stated several times that we will (and currently do) send combat logs tot he chat box which people can use to parse. What and how much data we specifically send will be determined through testing.
Well, if anything like ACT will be available then we can parse and break down spell rotations effectively. This makes me happy. Thanks for clarifying that we will be able to parse. Guess everyone who is scared to see their parses will be disapointed now.
beautifully said:Kilsin said:Xxar said:So I guess my question is going to be a flat out request for information. Will there be a combat log that is readable ? If the answer is yes, will things like Advanced Combat Tracker be allowed ? It simply gives a time based break down of skill/spell rotations based on the combat file and provides a dps graph in real time.
It does not inject anything into the client , but simply reads the log file.
That is all I want to know.
We have stated several times that we will (and currently do) send combat logs tot he chat box which people can use to parse. What and how much data we specifically send will be determined through testing.
Well, if anything like ACT will be available then we can parse and break down spell rotations effectively. This makes me happy. Thanks for clarifying that we will be able to parse. Guess everyone who is scared to see their parses will be disapointed now.
People were not scared to see their parse, they didn't want it in the game and being used against them for every group and raid, which I can fully understand why that it and I can see how bad that would be for our game but allowing external parsing for those who want to use it is fine, if it creeps into game and we see a trend of people using parses to dismiss or reject people from groups, we will review the information we send to the chat box and restrict what we need to in order to stop that from happening.
Hopefully, people will be sensible with the parse information and use it to better themselves, improve their characters performance, help others and test themselves against our game, not use it as a tool to set entry levels to groups/raids, or we will have to step in.
beautifully said:Kilsin said:Xxar said:So I guess my question is going to be a flat out request for information. Will there be a combat log that is readable ? If the answer is yes, will things like Advanced Combat Tracker be allowed ? It simply gives a time based break down of skill/spell rotations based on the combat file and provides a dps graph in real time.
It does not inject anything into the client , but simply reads the log file.
That is all I want to know.
We have stated several times that we will (and currently do) send combat logs tot he chat box which people can use to parse. What and how much data we specifically send will be determined through testing.
Well, if anything like ACT will be available then we can parse and break down spell rotations effectively. This makes me happy. Thanks for clarifying that we will be able to parse. Guess everyone who is scared to see their parses will be disapointed now.
Scared to see our parses? No..not quite right. I don't like being put upon, told I'm not good enough by those that spend time focussed with nose to parser. I'd rather play the game. You like parsers ...go for it. Just don't expect me to. :) I find them disruptive and more appropriate for first person shooters than I do in a MMORPG. You love parsers..have at it, just keep them for your benefit. *wink*
Kilsin said:People were not scared to see their parse, they didn't want it in the game and being used against them for every group and raid, which I can fully understand why that it and I can see how bad that would be for our game but allowing external parsing for those who want to use it is fine, if it creeps into game and we see a trend of people using parses to dismiss or reject people from groups, we will review the information we send to the chat box and restrict what we need to in order to stop that from happening.
Hopefully, people will be sensible with the parse information and use it to better themselves, improve their characters performance, help others and test themselves against our game, not use it as a tool to set entry levels to groups/raids, or we will have to step in.
That is comforting to hear. I am primarily a healer at heart, and I was told at one point that I needed to respec my priest in wow because I wasn't doing enough "heal dps" by being my "heal focused" spec. *sigh* I tend to heal and CC, and it gets really irritating to be told to stop doing what I'm naturally inclined towards, because "we don't need that if we just burn it down fast enough".
Amris said:Kilsin said:People were not scared to see their parse, they didn't want it in the game and being used against them for every group and raid, which I can fully understand why that it and I can see how bad that would be for our game but allowing external parsing for those who want to use it is fine, if it creeps into game and we see a trend of people using parses to dismiss or reject people from groups, we will review the information we send to the chat box and restrict what we need to in order to stop that from happening.
Hopefully, people will be sensible with the parse information and use it to better themselves, improve their characters performance, help others and test themselves against our game, not use it as a tool to set entry levels to groups/raids, or we will have to step in.
That is comforting to hear. I am primarily a healer at heart, and I was told at one point that I needed to respec my priest in wow because I wasn't doing enough "heal dps" by being my "heal focused" spec. *sigh* I tend to heal and CC, and it gets really irritating to be told to stop doing what I'm naturally inclined towards, because "we don't need that if we just burn it down fast enough".
Yeah, it is a different mentality over in that neck of the woods, which is precisely why we won't have DPS/Aggro meters in our game and control the information we do allow. People will have to learn to rely on their good old senses again instead of having programs do all the work for them, it may be a shock at first but it will benefit the game and the community in the long run.
Xxar said:That or the person finds out at what dps point he/she will rip aggro and prevent it.
I am not against parsing but i am not a fan of playing with people who are hell bent on parsing everyone and making it about always trying to win the dps race. I also have a feeling the agro will be a little more complicated so you cant just measure your dps and know that you are now in the safe zone. It will be very situational i feel and you will have to be aware of much more than just i can do 100dps and there for not have agro.
Although if agro is as black and white as that, you have a good point and reason to want to parse!
I am possibly jaded coming from a enchanters perspective where people break my mez's in the name of an encounter parse victory! :p
People breaking mez and parse is entirely different things in my world :)
Those people either learn to make /assist commands or find there solo, but that is another topic. The information I wanted to know has been established at this point.
I am just pro parse , combat log because from a raid leads perspective it allows me to "see" if someone is performing or not and to make adjustments as so we are not wasting another 23 + peoples time because bob can not click a button or wanted to ninja afk for a entire fight.
Xxar said:People breaking mez and parse is entirely different things in my world :)
Those people either learn to make /assist commands or find there solo, but that is another topic. The information I wanted to know has been established at this point.
I am just pro parse , combat log because from a raid leads perspective it allows me to "see" if someone is performing or not and to make adjustments as so we are not wasting another 23 + peoples time because bob can not click a button or wanted to ninja afk for a entire fight.
This is exactly correct. Not only is it very helpful with rotations, if this game is going to be as hard as it claims its going to be we may not be able to carry people depending on the size of raids. If raids are 75, every guild can afford to carry a few, when its drops to 24, the parse becomes much more important.
The fact is, most mechanics of a fight can be bypassed with pure DPS. This has been proven in every MMO I have ever played. DPS saves lives, period. When I see people say DPS check gates, I only think of raids. Maybe this is just me because in normal groups I dont even bother looking at the DPS. You cannot fault a top 5 guild for booting people out of guild because they cannot perform on raids, whether they want to spend the time to help them get better or not. Spend some time in the minor leagues, learn your trade, then try for the majors.
I say all of this as someone who wouldnt have time now a days with family to even be in a top raiding guild.
Deadlyfury said:Skins would be nice, I hope it's an xml style based UI like EQ. I made some themes when I was younger, but some people just are born to skin!
I am 100% against third party software, I will admit I have used it, but only because you fall behind if you don't.
I would love the game to be played like it was intended
Ditto!