Just to add in my 2cp ... The thing i hated the most about the games that I played after EQ and VG was the constant harping on dps and hps. It was like nothing but those stats mattered. One guild I was in kicked a healer because he had a "wrong" ability selected the made his hps a bit low. This seems to kill any sense of real friendship in raids. I am sooooooooo glad this is not going to be a part of Pantheon, makes me weep each day longer I must wait to play this ......
Kilsin said:Dreconic said:
some information is nice to have in case of DPS etc. While I hate the "I do more dps then you and the meter says so" mentality of WoW, Rift, WS etc. I do like being able to test my own rotations, seeing what is the best burst DPS, 60-second burn, sustained burn etc.
I hope this game will put more credence in being in/at the right spot at the right time and doing the right thing at the right time rather than the straight DPS fest that most end game dungeons/raids have turned into. Fights in EQ, especially in the PoP-PoR phase (maybe further but never really made it past PoR myself) had really good mechanics that made the force do more than just DPS burn. VG did a good job of this also on most of its fights.We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG. We do not want o see external DPS and Aggro meters. :)
Aye I know you have said that will be in, I was trying to say stuff like this is what should be in game, stuff like deadly boss mod, or heal bot, or any number of add-ons that make the game easier or automated should not be.
Well hopefully whoever is in charge of the UI is aware that not everyone wants the same thing out of their UI. I like my info to be where my eyes spend most of the time,i.e HUD with player/mob health/mana bars in the center of the screen around my avatar. I know many here will want them as far away from the center of the screen as possible.
Lots of great UI features came to WoW from the modding community, I hope we won't miss mods like one window bags, banker, outfitter, fubar, etc. (None of which are really in-game advantages, just preferences and conviniences). I really don't miss having a binder full of crafting material lists, cash, etc that are on my characters.
I would like to see a DPS meter but I fear that's already settled. Funny how a community who keeps saying jerks will be shuned away and cast out are afraid of jerks with dps meter taking over...
I agree that Decursive, healbot, aggro meter and bossmod type mods shouldn't be in the game.
Mekada said:Well hopefully whoever is in charge of the UI is aware that not everyone wants the same thing out of their UI. I like my info to be where my eyes spend most of the time,i.e HUD with player/mob health/mana bars in the center of the screen around my avatar. I know many here will want them as far away from the center of the screen as possible.
Lots of great UI features came to WoW from the modding community, I hope we won't miss mods like one window bags, banker, outfitter, fubar, etc. (None of which are really in-game advantages, just preferences and conviniences). I really don't miss having a binder full of crafting material lists, cash, etc that are on my characters.
I would like to see a DPS meter but I fear that's already settled. Funny how a community who keeps saying jerks will be shuned away and cast out are afraid of jerks with dps meter taking over...
I agree that Decursive, healbot, aggro meter and bossmod type mods shouldn't be in the game.
For me it's not so much about trying to avoid poor player behavior, but trying to keep the spirit of older MMORPG's alive. You didn't have an in-depth microscopic view of every game mechanic down to the hundredth percentile. You knew strength improved physical attack, or intelligence improved mana pools/etc for arcane users, so on and so forth.
Keeping these things as hidden as possible is for the best. We as players will still find ways to micro analyze mechanics to death. Make us do the work to peek behind the curtain, but don't just throw the whole thing wide open for all to see. Kind of defeats the purpose and mystery of good RPG's.
I don't want to turn this only about DPS meter, but I disagree with your point that DPS is giving away all the answers. The old school mystery feeling was all of us being noobs and not researching things, you won't recreate that since we've all been exposed to it now. Pen and paper RPGs also gave you all that knowledge of your character straight up, I don't think anyone will claim they aren't old school.
Dreconic said:Kilsin said:Dreconic said:
some information is nice to have in case of DPS etc. While I hate the "I do more dps then you and the meter says so" mentality of WoW, Rift, WS etc. I do like being able to test my own rotations, seeing what is the best burst DPS, 60-second burn, sustained burn etc.
I hope this game will put more credence in being in/at the right spot at the right time and doing the right thing at the right time rather than the straight DPS fest that most end game dungeons/raids have turned into. Fights in EQ, especially in the PoP-PoR phase (maybe further but never really made it past PoR myself) had really good mechanics that made the force do more than just DPS burn. VG did a good job of this also on most of its fights.We have already said that this will be available in chat logs mate, combat information that can be toggled on/off each chat window like you could do in EQ and VG. We do not want o see external DPS and Aggro meters. :)
Aye I know you have said that will be in, I was trying to say stuff like this is what should be in game, stuff like deadly boss mod, or heal bot, or any number of add-ons that make the game easier or automated should not be.
Yeah, spot on, this is our thinking too :)
Kilsin said:Just for clarification, I was genuinely asking what was not clear so I could reword it as it seems I didn't do a very good job explaining it the first time and I wanted to make sure I cleared things up for you and anyone else that was confused by my post.
To keep it simple, the difference is automatic vs manual, we don't want dps meters and aggro meters being installed and linking to the UI for instant "in your face" information, but we will allow combat log parsing like you could do in EQ and VG where combat text is logged in chat and can be saved in a text file for parsing.
There is a big difference and the automatic version can have a huge impact on the community and the overall mentality of gameplay, Pantheon is not a game that will be governed by gear scores and dps/aggro meters but we know stats and combat information are important to a portion of the community, myself included, and we will allow combat parsing to some degree but we haven't decided on how much information we will make available yet as Brad stated above.
I guess I'm just confused because EQ had this functionality. The automatic DPS calculation functionality that came from having the combat log write to a text file in real time. I understand that they won't be able to link directly into the UI, which they couldn't in EQ either.
However, I play the game with two monitors and when I raid in EQ or Project 1999, or whatever else, I have my parsing program of choice open on my second screen so I can see the numbers in real time. Whether or not it appears in the game doesn't really affect things at all.
Basically, there's a dichotomy:
1. The combat log functionality is equally as robust (or more) as EQ, so realtime automatic DPS calculations are possible.
OR
2. The combat log functionality is less robust than EQ, so our ability to automatically calculate DPS is below that of a game that came out in 1999.
The ultimate question I want answered is as follows: Is the ability to calculate DPS going to be more, equally, or less robust than EQ?
A good UI means you are not using it.
Brad is correct to limit cross-flow. Pantheon is a role playing game, not an arcade game. Actually delving into the mechanics and Personally knowing the mathmatics behind your character's saving throws and probabilities, would inherently mean you would know your own DPS, without need of in-game metrics. Knowing the dice throws is important. If u need a meter it means you can't work out the math.
I had printed spreadsheet when I played in EQ. That I made myself.
IMO... if you need/want an in-game DPS meter, means you are after arcade style game, not a Role Playing Game.
Hieromonk said:
A good UI means you are not using it.
Brad is correct to limit cross-flow. Pantheon is a role playing game, not an arcade game. Actually delving into the mechanics and Personally knowing the mathmatics behind your character's saving throws and probabilities, would inherently mean you would know your own DPS, without need of in-game metrics. Knowing the dice throws is important. If u need a meter it means you can't work out the math.
I had printed spreadsheet when I played in EQ. That I made myself.
IMO... if you need/want an in-game DPS meter, means you are after arcade style game, not a Role Playing Game.
Do not make assumptions about me and what I want.
Stop trying to project your opinions as facts.
I stated a FACT of why people need such things. I am not making assumptions about you. But ur a tad self incriminating..
If you are worried about YOUR dps meter, it means you are focused ( or have been trained) on little else. Because at that point, you probably need a meter (or flashy light) to tell you when to stun the mob, so that he can't cast a spell, etc .
DPS METER, Tonka Toys & Action Arcade that way--->
Liav said:Kilsin said:Just for clarification, I was genuinely asking what was not clear so I could reword it as it seems I didn't do a very good job explaining it the first time and I wanted to make sure I cleared things up for you and anyone else that was confused by my post.
To keep it simple, the difference is automatic vs manual, we don't want dps meters and aggro meters being installed and linking to the UI for instant "in your face" information, but we will allow combat log parsing like you could do in EQ and VG where combat text is logged in chat and can be saved in a text file for parsing.
There is a big difference and the automatic version can have a huge impact on the community and the overall mentality of gameplay, Pantheon is not a game that will be governed by gear scores and dps/aggro meters but we know stats and combat information are important to a portion of the community, myself included, and we will allow combat parsing to some degree but we haven't decided on how much information we will make available yet as Brad stated above.I guess I'm just confused because EQ had this functionality. The automatic DPS calculation functionality that came from having the combat log write to a text file in real time. I understand that they won't be able to link directly into the UI, which they couldn't in EQ either.
However, I play the game with two monitors and when I raid in EQ or Project 1999, or whatever else, I have my parsing program of choice open on my second screen so I can see the numbers in real time. Whether or not it appears in the game doesn't really affect things at all.
Basically, there's a dichotomy:
1. The combat log functionality is equally as robust (or more) as EQ, so realtime automatic DPS calculations are possible.
OR
2. The combat log functionality is less robust than EQ, so our ability to automatically calculate DPS is below that of a game that came out in 1999.
The ultimate question I want answered is as follows: Is the ability to calculate DPS going to be more, equally, or less robust than EQ?
It will most likely be similar to EQ/VG but as Brad and I both stated "we will allow combat parsing to some degree but we haven't decided on how much information we will make available yet as Brad stated above."
These are things we can look more into when we start testing but at the moment, it isn't high on our list of priorities.
tomarlo said:Just to add in my 2cp ... The thing i hated the most about the games that I played after EQ and VG was the constant harping on dps and hps. It was like nothing but those stats mattered. One guild I was in kicked a healer because he had a "wrong" ability selected the made his hps a bit low. This seems to kill any sense of real friendship in raids. I am sooooooooo glad this is not going to be a part of Pantheon, makes me weep each day longer I must wait to play this ......
End game EQ was about DPS and HP. I mained an Enchanter, the Wizards weren't very happy when the raid leader called out in guild chat that the Enchanter did more DPS than x, y Wizard. Granted I was regularly top 20 and hit top 10 often enough when I did a perfect burn.
Provided, killing raid bosses in EQ involved a whole lot more than just burning bosses down. But, DPS and healing parses were pretty much done by all hardcore raid guilds and if you couldn't ship up you got shipped out.
Cosmetic addons only would be great. It gets annoying having to constantly watch numbers and focus your entire gameplay around them. When a game has them though, you're pretty much forced to conform to stay competitive.
I would be totally happy if the base UI is customizable to the point of just dragging things around. No need for custom here.
I can tell you I'll be making a GamTextTriggers type of application for Pantheon if someone doesn't create a good one first. Besides parsing damage, I love being able to play sounds or have TextToSpeech notifying me when certain things happen. I found such programs to really help me focus on the game more than worrying about constantly reading my chat boxes. For instance, I had triggers that notified me of everything from when people said my name to when my root broke. I actually enjoy MMOs less when I don't have such addons.
Dullahan said:I can tell you I'll be making a GamTextTriggers type of application for Pantheon if someone doesn't create a good one first. Besides parsing damage, I love being able to play sounds or have TextToSpeech notifying me when certain things happen. I found such programs to really help me focus on the game more than worrying about constantly reading my chat boxes. For instance, I had triggers that notified me of everything from when people said my name to when my root broke. I actually enjoy MMOs less when I don't have such addons.
There will be one if there is a real-time parsable log file.
Dullahan said:I can tell you I'll be making a GamTextTriggers type of application for Pantheon if someone doesn't create a good one first. Besides parsing damage, I love being able to play sounds or have TextToSpeech notifying me when certain things happen. I found such programs to really help me focus on the game more than worrying about constantly reading my chat boxes. For instance, I had triggers that notified me of everything from when people said my name to when my root broke. I actually enjoy MMOs less when I don't have such addons.
I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?
Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?
Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?
I may be the minority but I still would prefer no altering of it. I just really dislike DPS meters and feel it takes away a big part of the experience. I think the thing is, if you allow one thing, then how far will you go before you may as well allow everything?
I think it's got to be all or nothing to justifiable. Is simplifying something taking away from the overall game experience, or is it adding to? I think this is subjective for sure.
Kilsin said:I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?
Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?
Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?
I don't see much of a difference. Both are added to increase performance. In the case of aggro or dps meters it's to help improve survivability or damage output. In the case of GTT it's to make it easier to notice when critical events occur. I never used either in EQ because my feeling is that the challenge of content is designed around them not being in game. That's not to say I didn't make extensive use of audio triggers which served the same function as GTT, but they were part of the game's design, so presumably players were expected to take advantage of them. Likewise, while I never bothered with an in-game parser, I did write my own scripts for parsing log files that I used from time to time outside of the game.
Dps meters have led to a certain amount of elitist attitudes, which really started during WoW and have followed to most successive games that have in-game dps meters. EQ1 has that on live to a certain, but much lesser, extent; it's used more of a tool to verify that players are performing within acceptable limits (yes there is e-peen waving, but nothing like wow), at least at the top end raiding guild level, which you have to have when raid mechanics include DPS checks. Parsers were around for a long time in EQ, before most people were even aware of them, well before WoW was released and they didn't cause many issues.
Audiotrigger programs do not foster that kind of animosity unless players are incapable of performing emote based mechanics and don't use either in-game audiotriggers, GTT or GINA (just talking EQ here).
If you think it breaks immersion, don't use them. I couldn't care less if you don't them, but many of us feel that they enhance our gameplay or gaming experience; allowing me to have them isn't going to ruin your experience unless it leads me to calling you out, which i don't do, so please don't limit my game experiece because you don't like them.
Kilsin said:I'm curious to get your (and everyone else's) thoughts on what you think the difference between "GamTextTriggers" and aggro/dps meters is?
Voice alerts/triggers vs visual alerts/triggers, they are both for convenience, audio is accepted and visual is rejected? The same argument for dps and aggro meters could be had for this type of assistance, don't you think?
Audio alerts you when a root breaks/Visual alerts you to DPS/Aggro level, they both minimise the effort and need for paying attention to in-game mechanics/alerts and instead automate them for audio and visual convenience, no?
I personally don't enjoy either of these and when they are allowed into the game they tend to become a "requirement" for you to have if you want to raid or whatever. I feel they all take away from the genuine game experience.
(I personally really don't care if someone else wants to use them, I just don't want it to be something that, if allowed, the playerbase itself then makes it a requirement).
A good player should be paying attention to everything thats happening around them, they should be aware of when their stuns/roots etc break, they should be paying attention to what the mob is doing as a visual cue to know if they are about to use a certain ability etc. I've never enjoyed the "oh I heard my bell chime, time to interrupt".
Just my thougts and feelings on the subject.
Rachael