I was doing some thinking and the marbles started rolling around. What about a progressive type of death penalty?
Possible example of what I mean:
*Any death hits you for a % of experience
1. Die - Get 80% of exp back no matter what (back to corpse, rez, summon, does not matter)
Receive a 30 minute debuff (5% lower stats)
2. Die twice within 30 minutes (while 1st buff is up) - 60% exp back
Buff goes to 30 min again but has two stacks - 10% lower stats)
3. Die three times within 30 minutes - 40% exp back
Buff goes to 30 min again stacks to three - 20% lower stats
*this is as worse as it gets and repeats at third level if you continue to die. If you survive during the 30 min buff, everything resets and it would repeat the cycle if you die later.
The reason I was thinking of something like this, is sometimes you accidentally do something foolish and in this style, you would not be penalized too bad. Get too aggressive and take too many risks and this style can be painful. It would certainly make death more painful and require players to plan better and limit deaths as it could cost you greatly if everyone is sitting at 20% less stats.
You could mix in other factors like damaged armor etc. if it applies to the game at the time.
Love this game but this is one area I think is dumb. I can live with but is outdated. Death penalty is something that takes away from new players only. People learning the game should have very few death penalties. Just enough of a hit that a few deaths would start to hurt them. Why? Because this game already has enough penalties. Run back time, trains, environmental puzzles. At higher levels we have the tools to deal with this stuff. EXP reses, corpse summons, player summons and bind. There should be a smooth curve on the death penalty, low at first and slowly going up the higher your level.
Also, there should be almost no death penalty from getting killed by a train/a mob you didn’t attack. Let’s face it, we want new gamers to play this game. Not just EQ1 and Vanguard vets. Pantheon will have a short shelf life unless we bring in new blood. Over burdening new players because they got in the wrong team a few times. Will drive them away when night after night PUGs are a crap roll and we know they are. That’s why we team with friends. Till new players build a network of trusted players. Gains the tools as a community to deal with death, we should go easy on them. As I said, a few deaths should be a set back you notice not turn you away.
Nanfoodle said:Love this game but this is one area I think is dumb. I can live with but is outdated. Death penalty is something that takes away from new players only. People learning the game should have very few death penalties. Just enough of a hit that a few deaths would start to hurt them. Why? Because this game already has enough penalties. Run back time, trains, environmental puzzles. At higher levels we have the tools to deal with this stuff. EXP reses, corpse summons, player summons and bind. There should be a smooth curve on the death penalty, low at first and slowly going up the higher your level.
Also, there should be almost no death penalty from getting killed by a train/a mob you didn’t attack. Let’s face it, we want new gamers to play this game. Not just EQ1 and Vanguard vets. Pantheon will have a short shelf life unless we bring in new blood. Over burdening new players because they got in the wrong team a few times. Will drive them away when night after night PUGs are a crap roll and we know they are. That’s why we team with friends. Till new players build a network of trusted players. Gains the tools as a community to deal with death, we should go easy on them. As I said, a few deaths should be a set back you notice not turn you away.
I'm sure someone's already mentioned it, but to reiterate: this is exactly why almost every game with a death penalty doesn't have it take effect until somewhere in between level 5 and 10. Of course it would be ridiculous to hugely punish a level 1 toon for dying. Early deaths should almost have no consequence to allow you to get a feel for the game. But at some point, you should know better. I agree it would make sense to have a sort of curve where the death penalty gets more severe as you level up. Maybe it starts off where you just lose xp. And then later, your gear starts dropping on your corpse. Something like:
Level 1-5: no penalty
Level 6-10: minor xp penalty
Level 11-15: minor xp penalty, gear drops with corpse
Level 16-20: medium xp penalty, gear drops with corpse
Level 21-25: big xp penalty, gear drops with corpse
so on and so forth... just a rough example. Anyway, I don't think anyone's suggesting that we brutally punish new players for dying. But it's an important differentiation.
That would be fair. I remember in EQ1 losing an entire level from chaining bad pugs. One of the reasons I switched mains from a Shaman to a Bard and Necro. Would also be nice if low level toons got lower powered skills that mirror high level tools like res, summon corpse, summmon player and bind. Like maybe low level bind could only work in some set areas. Same with summon corpse, you would need to be closer to say a high level corpse summons where you could pull it accross the zone. This would help these types of classes get teams and get people making friends at lower levels.
My suggestion is EQ death penalty, or a variation where you drop your entire inventory but your gear stays with you and it’s weakened only working properly inside the area you died. to get rid of the debuff you need to get to your corpse.
We can all agree that if death is just a minor setback (a 10 min run back) we would play the game in a completely different way, and xp loss will not prevent this from happening, it will help but not to such a high degree that makes the player really fear death, that’s where retrieving gear or items from the corpse comes in. If retrieving your corpse is a necessity then death means a whole lot more.
Linking this again as maybe it was lost, but Kilsin set up a long running thread on this very thing already:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2087/let-s-talk-death-penalty
Nanfoodle said:That would be fair. I remember in EQ1 losing an entire level from chaining bad pugs. One of the reasons I switched mains from a Shaman to a Bard and Necro. Would also be nice if low level toons got lower powered skills that mirror high level tools like res, summon corpse, summmon player and bind. Like maybe low level bind could only work in some set areas. Same with summon corpse, you would need to be closer to say a high level corpse summons where you could pull it accross the zone. This would help these types of classes get teams and get people making friends at lower levels.
Aye, suffice to say there's no reason death should be treated exactly the same from level 1-50. The higher level you get, the more powerful you get, but also the more risk vs. reward comes into play. The risk of dying becomes more of an issue. I'd say that should be the case even with better rezzes and such.
Bazgrim said:Nanfoodle said:That would be fair. I remember in EQ1 losing an entire level from chaining bad pugs. One of the reasons I switched mains from a Shaman to a Bard and Necro. Would also be nice if low level toons got lower powered skills that mirror high level tools like res, summon corpse, summmon player and bind. Like maybe low level bind could only work in some set areas. Same with summon corpse, you would need to be closer to say a high level corpse summons where you could pull it accross the zone. This would help these types of classes get teams and get people making friends at lower levels.
Aye, suffice to say there's no reason death should be treated exactly the same from level 1-50. The higher level you get, the more powerful you get, but also the more risk vs. reward comes into play. The risk of dying becomes more of an issue. I'd say that should be the case even with better rezzes and such.
As a rare spell, I would love to see an 90%+ exp return on a res.
I did not read the entirety of this ghread (work in progress) but i really like the idea. Rez being on classes other than the main healer i think would give those classes something special. Its not detrimental to have rez in every group but i can see a situation where the group would be a little happier about it instead of it being a given.
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I wouldnt mind some support classes getting rez spells in adition to healers, but its not make or break.
And Im still a fan of Dark Souls mixed with corpse runs for death penalty. Better get that corpse or lose all xp (souls) towards that next level. I think the FAQ says no delevel, so the only problem is this wouldnt give any real penalty at max level. Guess we will find out in testing.
I am always thinking, some good, some bad ideas :)
Crazy thought, what if there was an epic style quest (long & fun) early on, to obtain a legendary item called a "Soul Stone". Something you could complete by level 10, but quite extensive and fun, inlcuding rare drops, turns ins, etc.
Once you have the stone in possession:
When you die, the stone traps your soul and you can revive where you died after 30 seconds (or however long). It takes an hour to have its magic properties restored and usuable again.
Initially you gain back 60% of your experience (or in line with death penalty) but this can be built up over a long period of time (thru AAs or skills or artifact etc,) to give back 90% exp back on use.
Perhaps down the road there is a unique opportunity or sacfrifice to gain an extra charge or have its time reduced.
Pyye said:I am always thinking, some good, some bad ideas :)
Crazy thought, what if there was an epic style quest (long & fun) early on, to obtain a legendary item called a "Soul Stone". Something you could complete by level 10, but quite extensive and fun, inlcuding rare drops, turns ins, etc.
Once you have the stone in possession:
When you die, the stone traps your soul and you can revive where you died after 30 seconds (or however long). It takes an hour to have its magic properties restored and usuable again.
Initially you gain back 60% of your experience (or in line with death penalty) but this can be built up over a long period of time (thru AAs or skills or artifact etc,) to give back 90% exp back on use.
Perhaps down the road there is a unique opportunity or sacfrifice to gain an extra charge or have its time reduced.
Level 10 Epic Quest?
How come you guys haven't mentioned an alternative to Rezzes? why not make death a game in itself? Here is an extract from my personal archive ;) you could make a few tweeks to it to incorporate some xp penalty and spawn location/corpse running etc..
3.5.10 Player Death
Upon death, the player’s “soul” is sent into Limbo, a free-for-all PvP battlefield, where all players, regardless of their skills, are brought to an equal plane of power. Once a player’s soul enters Limbo they will have five minutes to complete one of a selection of tasks to appease the gatekeepers and earn their passage back to the land of the living early. The player may choose one of the following options: Challenge NPC foes in a event where the player cannot be helped by anyone and must annihilate all opponents without dying, Engaging in a free-for-all PvP battle and earn a single kill, or Bribe the gatekeepers with coins for passage. If none of the tasks are completed within the 5 minutes, the player is sent back to their body with a random debuff that lasts for 30 minutes.
NPC Ring Challenge
In the ring challenge, the player will be pitted against three creatures within Limbo themselves. The creatures each player face will be randomized in both type and difficulty. After each creature is slain, the player must signal they are ready for the next fight before the next creature appears. The better the battle, the more appeased the gatekeepers are with you.
PvP One-Kill Challenge
In the PvP One-Kill Challenge, the player is thrown into a battlefield amongst all other people in Limbo. With their skills and powers equal, players will be tested on the tactics and cunning in battle to determine who is worthy of returning. To prove to the gatekeepers they are worthy of passage, the player must extinguish another player’s soul. After extinguishing a soul, the player must safely make their way back to the gatekeepers for passage. If the player chooses, they may wipe more than one soul from Limbo. Doing so results in a higher approval from the gatekeepers. If a player dies in this challenge, they are knocked out for 15 seconds. After the 15 seconds, they regain consciousness.
Bribing
If a player does not feel confident in their skills in battle, they can always bribe the gatekeepers with the promise of riches from the land of the living. If the player chooses this path, they will be immediately sent back to their body with a curse on them. This curse will slightly reduce their physical and mental abilities as well as prevent them from receiving Promotional or Training Notes. This curse can stack with multiple deaths and can only be removed by donating gold or equally valued items to the gatekeepers of Limbo via any graveyard.
Player Body Looting
In the event the player died in a PvP battle, the player’s belongings can be rummaged through and looted at will while the player’s soul is in Limbo. Refer to 3.5.7 Material Rewards for restrictions on looting.
Beef-
Epic in length or accomplishment, yes...
I would not doubt we will have other quests just as lengthy or meaningful early on, or at least I really hope so.
Kargen said:How come you guys haven't mentioned an alternative to Rezzes? why not make death a game in itself? Here is an extract from my personal archive ;) you could make a few tweeks to it to incorporate some xp penalty and spawn location/corpse running etc..
3.5.10 Player Death
Upon death, the player’s “soul” is sent into Limbo, a free-for-all PvP battlefield, where all players, regardless of their skills, are brought to an equal plane of power. Once a player’s soul enters Limbo they will have five minutes to complete one of a selection of tasks to appease the gatekeepers and earn their passage back to the land of the living early. The player may choose one of the following options: Challenge NPC foes in a event where the player cannot be helped by anyone and must annihilate all opponents without dying, Engaging in a free-for-all PvP battle and earn a single kill, or Bribe the gatekeepers with coins for passage. If none of the tasks are completed within the 5 minutes, the player is sent back to their body with a random debuff that lasts for 30 minutes.
NPC Ring Challenge
In the ring challenge, the player will be pitted against three creatures within Limbo themselves. The creatures each player face will be randomized in both type and difficulty. After each creature is slain, the player must signal they are ready for the next fight before the next creature appears. The better the battle, the more appeased the gatekeepers are with you.
PvP One-Kill Challenge
In the PvP One-Kill Challenge, the player is thrown into a battlefield amongst all other people in Limbo. With their skills and powers equal, players will be tested on the tactics and cunning in battle to determine who is worthy of returning. To prove to the gatekeepers they are worthy of passage, the player must extinguish another player’s soul. After extinguishing a soul, the player must safely make their way back to the gatekeepers for passage. If the player chooses, they may wipe more than one soul from Limbo. Doing so results in a higher approval from the gatekeepers. If a player dies in this challenge, they are knocked out for 15 seconds. After the 15 seconds, they regain consciousness.
Bribing
If a player does not feel confident in their skills in battle, they can always bribe the gatekeepers with the promise of riches from the land of the living. If the player chooses this path, they will be immediately sent back to their body with a curse on them. This curse will slightly reduce their physical and mental abilities as well as prevent them from receiving Promotional or Training Notes. This curse can stack with multiple deaths and can only be removed by donating gold or equally valued items to the gatekeepers of Limbo via any graveyard.
Player Body Looting
In the event the player died in a PvP battle, the player’s belongings can be rummaged through and looted at will while the player’s soul is in Limbo. Refer to 3.5.7 Material Rewards for restrictions on looting.
Interesting idea, but with it, some major problems. There are many situations in game where a quick rezz is necessary. If we're fighting a raid boss and an important player goes down, we need to get them back up as quickly as possible. We won't have time for them to get involved in a mini game to get back into action. Even if they end up "bribing" their way back to life, they're still going to have a significant debuff that would hamper their ability to contribute in the raid in a meaningful way until they see the gatekeeper at the graveyard ... and that's a difficult task when you're neck deep in dragon breath on the other side of the zone.
Keep in mind that a lot of people die due to computer/network problems and cannot always get back quickly or even the same day.
In EQ, the exp loss and corpse run actually made the penalty the same for everyone.
A person who died in Karnor's Castle (level 50), for example... had a very difficult corpse run for their level.
But comparatively speaking, a person who died in Blackburrow also had a very difficult corpse run for their level.
There was equal difficulty in each of these scenarios, even though BB is only a lvl 10ish dungeon. Now, granted, if you got high level help, CR in BB was easier... but if you got your guild to come help you in karnor's, so was that.
CR created an "epic" feeling from level 10 on. It made venturing into dungeons even at that low level feel terrifying. Getting your corpse back at level 10 felt like the same degree of accomplishment as it felt at level 50 when it was in a dungeon. Many, many, many a low level person despaired the loss of their rusty weapon and their ONE WHOLE platinum... There was weaping and gnashing of teeth from such an early level and it made the WHOLE game feel epic. It was SO hard to get a magic weapon that killing your first will-o-wisp was a memory you carried forever. That was level 10 in a level 50 game where the last levels were exponentially harder to get!
This is yet another reason why I cannot advocate enough for CR and making it VERY long to get your corpse back through any way besides player cooperation. I don't advocate perma loss of gear, but please make it take weeks or longer to get your corpse back if you don't get help right away. Make it REALLY hurt to live without it in the meantime... make it terrifying to go into dungeons--at every level. It WORKED in EQ because every dungeon run felt epic from the very begining.
