zewtastic said:Bronsun said:zewtastic said:EQ2 did do a great job with their housing. But EQ2 was from the very start a 100% instanced game. Pantheon is not.
I hope it is eventually instanced. Depending on how they handle it, it should also be password protected so that you can invite people into your instanced home. :D
You don't need instancing for PW protection. that existed in Vanguard.
Back in the day The Realm was the first MMO to use instance housing and dungeons for that matter. That game was setup so that players could get into your front yard, but not into your home because the locks were password protected. Some sneaky people who could cast invisable spells on themselves then hangout in your front yard waiting for you to showup. Then without being detected be able to follow you into your home when you opened the door. That was what I was thinking. :D
Dashed said:I consider crafting to not be part of PvE or PvP but its own robust leg of an MMO 3 legged stool. According to you, crafting should also not be implemented at all because it takes focus away from the PvE. I disagree with your premise completely and utterly. A great MMO is designed to have a myriad of activities and things to do not just hack and slay. The non-combat related activities are just as much (if not more) of a draw to an MMO than...mob killing. I haven't gone out and stated that because I like crafting so much, I feel that everyone should be required to do it, nor should you (PvE statement). Not to mention that housing can easily be very much a part of that E if done well.
Not true at all. Crafting figures right in with PvE and engaging the world, gathering too as seen in the recent newsletter and focus on materials coming more from mobs and salvage than hunting nodes. The gear crafted goes toward assisting any combat related endeavors. Instanced housing is purely cosmetic and offers nothing toward PvE or a persistent open world.
Explained by VR:
6.0 What are the plans for crafting in Pantheon?
Crafting is an important part of Pantheon. A big emphasis is going to be on cooperation between adventurers and crafters. There exists a symbiotic relationship, not competition -- both adventurers and crafters will need each other. With as many horizontal content paths as we’re going to have, you’re going to want to seek crafters for those very specific situations. Instead of having to farm a specific piece of gear, it might be more beneficial to find a crafter with that recipe.
Some items drop when you kill a mob while others are harvestable and others are crafted. Other than a few class-specific rewards, such as epic quest items, many items will be craftable. Crafting also goes hand-in-hand with dropped items by allowing players to customize their gear. Players can often bring items to a crafter to customize and tailor them to their specific needs. Since a customized item is meant specifically for your character the item will likely be bound (un-tradable) but this allows the crafter to squeeze out some additional power from a dropped item. That said, it is possible (TBD) you could later break down the item into components allowing another crafter to use those materials to augment something for you in the future.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be anything outside of combat activities, but the additions ideally should support the persistent world and in most cases be at least somewhat related to PvE. So if they do add something similar to housing then I think their outpost idea is something worth fleshing out, make it a feature out in the open world that can be interacted with by all kinds of adventurers for various different benefits from buffs to quests to event triggering etc.
WoW didn't have anything like housing for a full decade and it certainly did not suffer for it (and the addition of it caused quite a rift in the community due to what it cost players content wise and how it contributed to noticeably more deserted cities) because primarily (most) players are entirely satisfied grouping/raiding/crafting/faction grinding/doing PvP battlegrounds or arenas/questing/etc and then repeating it with other classes if they run out of content. If the PvE content is engaging enough and the release schedule doesn't drag then that's plenty enough to keep people loving the game for many years. They don't need to add taxing fluff pieces like instanced housing or vanity pet "Pokemon" fighting etc.
Iksar said:If the PvE content is engaging enough and the release schedule doesn't drag then that's plenty enough to keep people loving the game for many years.
This is easy for you to say because you do not have any particular desire for housing. I'd take care not to push your own opinions as fact, as others enjoy housing and creating unique builds and would like to see it in the game at some point.
Every time an MMO tries to do open world "housing", it's horribly limited - both in scope of customization and in accessibility - and generally unfun. I would love to be able to fill the void WildStar is leaving with Pantheon.
Bronsun said:zewtastic said:EQ2 did do a great job with their housing. But EQ2 was from the very start a 100% instanced game. Pantheon is not.
I hope it is eventually instanced. Depending on how they handle it, it should also be password protected so that you can invite people into your instanced home. :D
I think this would be a wonderful world event. If they (devs) designated 5 or 6 small lot places for teir 1 zones, 3 or 4 for tier 2 zones and 1 or 2 places in tier 3 zones that the community can "build" it (I think) would be a lot of fun. Or maybe the same number of plots (nodes) for each tier, just completeing the building of a node is harder for high tier zones.
Avendyrs Pass is a Tier 1 zone. In that zone, 5 or 6 spots throughout the zone (maybe 2 or 3 houses in the little village, mabye a house in the woods and maybe a house or two near the riverbank could all be designated as "buildable" house nodes during a pre-determined date sometime in the near future after release. The community would need to defend the building of, delivery of resouces to, partake in the build of these houses nodes for X amount of days. Gathering X amount of resources and doing X amount of building. If a designated location ISN'T found/started/defeneded/completed then it doesn't turn into a housing plot. (of course the devs could run this event again, giving the chance for a missed house to be built). BUT when one of these houses is "done" it can then be rented out. It could be an instanced zone so as many people that want a house could have a house. Tier 1 houses should be small, have limited ability to add much other than a place to hang tropys on the wall and NO instanced houses should offer a commodity that brings people into a community hub or city.
Aradune said:Our putting simple cosmetic housing in an Instance means there is a lot of work involved and it only appeals to those players who truly enjoy the cosmetic-only aspect of housing. We have nothing against that group, of course, and building and decorating a virtual house is very cool. But like with anything else Pantheon, we are always looking at ways to link the cosmetic to actual gameplay. Putting them in an instance to be invited to just doesn't link to gameplay. Making them part of the real world does. Expanding from the house idea to the Outpost idea then adds more people to the endeavor and makes it easier to tie in actual gameplay reasons to have that Outpost. It doesn't exclude or limit the cosmetic part of things at all, nor would we want to. Instead it makes it *part* of the bigger picture, which are these Outposts that do a lot more than simply provide a creative outlet to those who like to decorate and set up their own house. The people who enjoy the cosmetic need to work with other types of players who are setting up the Outpost to help their group or guild achieve their goals too. By making it so that Outposts need players to visit them that are not the owners of the Outpost then includes even more people. By making them so that they naturally move around as the group/guild levels up we hopefully avoid the urban sprawl situation and having to make zones just for housing like we saw in VG.
Yes, tying in crafting stations, vendors, and other reasons in addition to having people by to appreciate your home makes the system much more complex. As does making Outposts part of the real world and not instanced. But that's true for much of Pantheon's design and goals -- we are not looking for the easy way out, so to speak. We really want to do these systems justice. It's why we're clear this is post-launch and deserves a lot of our attention and effort. It's also part of our goal to make the E in PvE matter and be a lot more than just killing mobs. We want the environment to change, to be more dynamic, and in order to do this, in order to have player created housing/outposts truly impact the world, we have to go down this road.
Yes, I've read about his "outpost" idea. It's going to flop. No body wants to constantly "defend" anything thing in the game. Especially something that might "move" every few months. We want to go out and explore. We want to raid. We want to grind. We want to alt. We want to do other things. Unless VR does what everyone here is asking them not to do, and they add all aspects of whats available in town to these constatnly moving Outposts. No one will use them. If they do add all the stuff we need, everyone will be pissed that they've done the one specific thing 99% of us asked them not to do. (Putting community hubs places outside of community gathering points.)
"As the community levels up to new areas, the Outposts move with them."
1) 50% of the community, 10%, 90%? The outpost moves every 6 months? 2? 8? After 100 people have voted to move it? 1000 people, 7 people?
2) The community doesn't level up to an area to stay there, they level up to an area to grind it, find the best gear and move on. (Yes all execpt you special people who take the time and "enjoy" the journey gratz.)
3) If this is a 'criteria met' or 'resource drivin' evolution then I can almost guarantee you that after it's built once and moved 1 time, it won't happen again. Or at least 90% of the people who have built it once and moved it once won't do it again. Maybe rarely if a guild gets bored and only if moving it takes the efforts of 20 people at most. Once people have experienced moving it one time, they'll be done with the novelty of it and choose to grind, raid, craft with their time the next time a "moving" event happens. (Unless large rewards accompany the efforts.)
Again, the only way these Outposts will be benificial enough for the effort is if VR does what we've all begged them not to do with housing. And thats removing the community from community hubs. If the excuse of these Outposts is "well the community will all meet here then", all I have to say is nope. Only if you have many outposts, but then if you have many outposts you're diluting the community and you're basically just making Guildhalls via EQ2.
@Kittik
I have to disagree with your assessment. I would use an Outpost type of guild headquarters much more so than any of the other, individual housing ideas that have been presented for a few reasons:
* Having it able to be moved to an area your guild is focusing on is a huge advantage. Being able to put it in an out of the way area that is not near other towns that you want to focus on is useful. As your guild progresses to the next area the location can be adjusted. Because of the horizontal progression that Pantheon will present this might be utilized a lot more than some people realize due to different atmosphere and climate type gear that will be required and will likely be located in a specific area.
*It ties older content with newer content. It would likely be moved every expansion that includes new zones.
* Having it be guild focused brings people together on a daily basis when doing mundane tasks like selling at the merchant or using it for extra storage/banking instead of having individuals separated in personal housing to do those things. It encourages socializing and community more than individual housing.
*Upgrading it likely encourages guid members to work on something as a team instead of it being a personal focus. Again, this encourages social interactions and community instead of personal/solo housing upgrades.
*Non-instanced housing in other games presents a lot of problems. Issues like overcrowding and vacant/ghost town houses are simply not as much of an issue when you limit housing to 1 per guild instead of 1 per person. (we know VRs stance on instancing. Arguing for it is pointless).
philo said:@Kittik
I have to disagree with your assessment. I would use an Outpost type of guild headquarters much more so than any of the other, individual housing ideas that have been presented for a few reasons:
* Having it able to be moved to an area your guild is focusing on is a huge advantage. Being able to put it in an out of the way area that is not near other towns that you want to focus on is useful. As your guild progressing to the next area the location can be adjusted.
*It ties older content with newer content. It would likely be moved every expansion that includes new zones.
* Having it be guild focused brings people together on a daily basis when doing mundane tasks like selling at the merchant or using it for extra storage/banking instead of having individuals separated in personal housing to do those things. It encourages socializing and community more than individual housing.
*Upgrading it likely encourages guid members to work on something as a team instead of it being a personal focus. Again, this encourages social interactions and community instead of personal/solo housing upgrades.
*Non-instanced housing in other games presents a lot of problems. Issues like overcrowding and vacant/ghost town houses are simply not as much of an issue when you limit housing to 1 per guild instead of 1 per person. (we know VRs stance on instancing. Arguing for it is pointless).
I'd say the decay factor of having to repair things and work them is also a good way to limit "Guild of one toon keeping a guildhouse claimed". This is a major problem in every non instanced or semi instanced housing, one of the example would be on FFXIV, the ragnarok server where the "top 1" PVE guild is (Angered), they own 30 or 40 housing plots by themselves, having subguilds with only one or two rerolls in them, to mass produce valuable things locked behind guild housing ( a bad idea by itself, as it promote abuses more than anything, but that's the dichotomy (I love this word) between offering guild benefits to investment, or favor players abusing the system).
I don't want an outpost you have to repair every day for your whole gametime, but a few hours of teamwork every week or so would be a minimal to keep it functionnal.
Bronsun said:zewtastic said:Bronsun said:zewtastic said:EQ2 did do a great job with their housing. But EQ2 was from the very start a 100% instanced game. Pantheon is not.
I hope it is eventually instanced. Depending on how they handle it, it should also be password protected so that you can invite people into your instanced home. :D
You don't need instancing for PW protection. that existed in Vanguard.
Back in the day The Realm was the first MMO to use instance housing and dungeons for that matter. That game was setup so that players could get into your front yard, but not into your home because the locks were password protected. Some sneaky people who could cast invisable spells on themselves then hangout in your front yard waiting for you to showup. Then without being detected be able to follow you into your home when you opened the door. That was what I was thinking. :D
Actually UO had that first in 96. But I get your meaning.
That could still happen with the Vanguard housing. If someone opened their door you could go in, even if you did not have rights. But good luck getting out after that door closed. Only way was to teleport out to your bind spot.
philo said:*Non-instanced housing in other games presents a lot of problems. Issues like overcrowding and vacant/ghost town houses are simply not as much of an issue when you limit housing to 1 per guild instead of 1 per person. (we know VRs stance on instancing. Arguing for it is pointless).
You might think that, but if planned carefully it neither adds an overcrowding issue or ghost town issue.
Vanguard is still the best argument I have for fixed, physical in-game housing.
- many different styles of houses.
-Houses had permission levels of access.
-Blight never occured as islands were added off the shores of continents that were purely for housing. They were small islands. Holding a dozen up to many dozens of houses and maybe a guildhall plot. Guilds liked them as the membership would grab up all the houses around the guildhall.
-Ghost towns? Was not an issue. You did not hang out at your house to socialize with other players on the island. You came and went.
zewtastic said:philo said:*Non-instanced housing in other games presents a lot of problems. Issues like overcrowding and vacant/ghost town houses are simply not as much of an issue when you limit housing to 1 per guild instead of 1 per person. (we know VRs stance on instancing. Arguing for it is pointless).
You might think that, but if planned carefully it neither adds an overcrowding issue or ghost town issue.
Vanguard is still the best argument I have for fixed, physical in-game housing.
- many different styles of houses.
-Houses had permission levels of access.
-Blight never occured as islands were added off the shores of continents that were purely for housing. They were small islands. Holding a dozen up to many dozens of houses and maybe a guildhall plot. Guilds liked them as the membership would grab up all the houses around the guildhall.
-Ghost towns? Was not an issue. You did not hang out at your house to socialize with other players on the island. You came and went.
Creating a "housing island" that is separate from the rest of the world is really no different than creating an instance that is separate. That's just a rationalized implementation that is the same concept as instances.
Housing needs to be in and amongst the world to truely be a part of it.
philo said:zewtastic said:philo said:*Non-instanced housing in other games presents a lot of problems. Issues like overcrowding and vacant/ghost town houses are simply not as much of an issue when you limit housing to 1 per guild instead of 1 per person. (we know VRs stance on instancing. Arguing for it is pointless).
You might think that, but if planned carefully it neither adds an overcrowding issue or ghost town issue.
Vanguard is still the best argument I have for fixed, physical in-game housing.
- many different styles of houses.
-Houses had permission levels of access.
-Blight never occured as islands were added off the shores of continents that were purely for housing. They were small islands. Holding a dozen up to many dozens of houses and maybe a guildhall plot. Guilds liked them as the membership would grab up all the houses around the guildhall.
-Ghost towns? Was not an issue. You did not hang out at your house to socialize with other players on the island. You came and went.
Creating a "housing island" that is separate from the rest of the world is really no different than creating an instance that is separate. That's just a rationalized implementation that is the same concept as instances.
Housing needs to be in and amongst the world to truely be a part of it.
It wasn't separate. It was part of the persistent world.
You could see it from shore, you could swim to it, you could sail your crafted boat to it.
Vanguard had islands with quests, monsters, raid targets, etc. Some islands had player housing. Non-instanced, ingame, physical structures with doors and permission settings.
Noninstanced housing requires empty land set aside for the placement of structures, which means it'll inevitably be separate from other parts of the world.
Personally, I still think noninstanced housing is pretty much inferior to what we could get instanced in every way. Noninstanced housing has very limited exterior customization, will invariably have very low decor counts, will be limited in availability (and thus will likely come with some sort of frustrating upkeep cost), and could never allow for freeform creativity.
My favorite thing to do in WildStar's housing system is to take seemingly unrelated decor pieces and manipulate and overlay them in such a way that they create a completely unique structure. Noninstanced housing always feels like one is just playing dollhouse with a premade dollhouse and a narrow range of preselected furniture that you can only ever use for the exact purpose it was built for - it's incredibly limiting.
People talk about housing taking players out of the world - but a good housing system like EQ2 coupled with the lack of a store can have housing put players into the world.
1. Many people enjoy housing - having a good housing system will encourage people to try the game and hopefully subscribe. Thus more players.
2. If you cannot buy housing decorations in a store how do you get them? By adventuring in the world or crafting in the world, and perhaps many of the items needed for the better decorations will be hard to get (require a rare from a node or a large quantity of common items) and thus force us into the world to get the items.
3. Decorations can be used to encourage people to join groups to do certain dungeons or raids. Thus, Teresa the Titan chief has a small chance to drop a large glass fish tank. Her gear drop - a bra of strength +1 - may become outdated as people level-up and get better bras - but that doesn't make the Teresa dungeon a bust - groups may form just in the hope of getting the fish tank.
Housing can also be a good source of revenue.
Almost all of us would object strongly to any ingame store.
Almost all of us would object strongly to a website store that sold items that were useful in-game.
Many would object to a website store that sold items visible in-game even if not "useful" - such as cosmetic outfits and mounts. Perhaps the great majority and perhaps strongly but I don't know this.
My instincts tell me that housing decorations visible only to the house owner and invited guests could be sold without as much of an uproar. Personally I don't want to see this *but* if they find they need the revenue better this than almost anything else. I do emphasize that I don't like it - firstly it is a very very bad precendent. Secondly it reduces the use of decorations to incent people to do group dungeons as in the fish tank example.
MauvaisOeil said:philo said:@Kittik
wassssssup....
I'd say the decay factor of having to repair things and work them is also a good way to limit "Guild of one toon keeping a guildhouse claimed". This is a major problem in every non instanced or semi instanced housing, one of the example would be on FFXIV, the ragnarok server where the "top 1" PVE guild is (Angered), they own 30 or 40 housing plots by themselves, having subguilds with only one or two rerolls in them, to mass produce valuable things locked behind guild housing ( a bad idea by itself, as it promote abuses more than anything, but that's the dichotomy (I love this word) between offering guild benefits to investment, or favor players abusing the system).
I don't want an outpost you have to repair every day for your whole gametime, but a few hours of teamwork every week or so would be a minimal to keep it functionnal.
Again this is why I'm opposed to any Non-Instance Housing type of thing. This Outpost thing isn't going to work. Show me one game EVER that implemented something that required players to maintain it and it lasted? (and even worse in this case, players will have to constantly move and rebuild it). It won't work. Players come and go, number ebb and flow, if there is anything that is ever going to require the players to "maintain" it, it'll eventually not be used. If server numbers drop too low it's a useless item. If server merges happen, you'll have issues of who "owned" it. Same thing with ANY non-instanced housing ideas.
Look at my other post a couple posts up, and if there were an implamentation of letting players eventually build a house (which becomes a door for instanced housing it would work better. Devs to get keep designed control, placement, quantity etc.)
Kittik said:Again this is why I'm opposed to any Non-Instance Housing type of thing. This Outpost thing isn't going to work. Show me one game EVER that implemented something that required players to maintain it and it lasted? (and even worse in this case, players will have to constantly move and rebuild it). It won't work. Players come and go, number ebb and flow, if there is anything that is ever going to require the players to "maintain" it, it'll eventually not be used. If server numbers drop too low it's a useless item. If server merges happen, you'll have issues of who "owned" it. Same thing with ANY non-instanced housing ideas.
I agree with this. It seems to be an issue regardless of whether it is instanced or not.
I guess you are saying that instances don't leave a vacant spot if it isn't maintained? That is true if it is individual instances. If it is neighborhood instances like in LotRo you still have neighborhoods that are vacant except for a house or 2.
It's a numbers game. A few vacant houses is fine. A majority of vacant houses isn't fine imo. That's another reason why I think guild outposts would be better than individual housing.
Let's throw out some hypothetical numbers.
Maybe there are 50 guilds per server that have enough members and the resources to purchase/build a outpost. Even if half of those fall into disrepair, it's still only 25 empty outposts. That doesn't seem like a major issue. If there are 1000 individual houses and half fall into disrepair and are vacant that's 500 empty houses. That is a major issue. (and, for comparison, that would be equivelent to only having 20 players per guild average...most likely any guild that will meet the requirements to build an outpost would have over 20 people I would guess...but who knows, hypothetical numbers. Don't dwell on the specific numbers)
The point ^ being. By simply implementing a smaller total number of houses by only offering them to a guild instead of an individual, it solves a lot of the vacant/disrepair/ghost town issues.
dorotea said:People talk about housing taking players out of the world - but a good housing system like EQ2 coupled with the lack of a store can have housing put players into the world.1. Many people enjoy housing - having a good housing system will encourage people to try the game and hopefully subscribe. Thus more players.
2. If you cannot buy housing decorations in a store how do you get them? By adventuring in the world or crafting in the world, and perhaps many of the items needed for the better decorations will be hard to get (require a rare from a node or a large quantity of common items) and thus force us into the world to get the items.
3. Decorations can be used to encourage people to join groups to do certain dungeons or raids. Thus, Teresa the Titan chief has a small chance to drop a large glass fish tank. Her gear drop - a bra of strength +1 - may become outdated as people level-up and get better bras - but that doesn't make the Teresa dungeon a bust - groups may form just in the hope of getting the fish tank.
Thank you. This seemed obvious to me, so I didn't think to mention it. But this exactly! In WildStar, a lot of the decor drops from dungeons and adventures (and is ONLY found there). Raids also drop special decor. And a lot of decor is found just out in the open world. There's also a decor vendor, of course, that helps serve as a pretty significant gold sink for the game - and again, by virtue of housing requiring a significant amount of gold means housing enthusiasts have to spend time out in other parts of the game to earn that gold.
zendrel said: A wildstar style of housing was the best I've ever seen. It was instanced but realistically you could do it zoned instead. Purchase plots in different districts to own a plot of land so you can mix a good 6-8 players plots in a single district. Major cities need areas for people to live and why not let the players make that? If you have never seen wildstar housing I would check it out. It was superb. Items for housing dropped in dungeons and the open world. Crafters could make items for it and vendors would sell some very expensive items. It's also the best way to reward odd events that people enjoy. Giving out a novelty housing item that's unique is far better than a damage increase reward.
Unfortunately, what made WildStar housing so amazing also necessitates an instanced system. The decor load would simply be too much of a strain on servers if it were not. This is demonstrated perfectly with the Community feature Carbine implemented later on - that allows you to link up 5 housing plots to form a neighborhood of sorts, with an additional common space between all the plots. That meant you have 2,500 exterior decor, multiplied by 5, plus 4,000 for the common space, for a total of 16,500 individual decor items that must load upon entering the Community instance (and that's not including the 2,500x5 decor that would be in the interiors of the Community). This is a lot. Some folk experience pretty significant lag when loading into a community as the decor pulls up, and a few folk with unfortunately outdated computers would sometimes crash when entering particularly crowded Communities. Oh and believe me, 2,500 decor sounds like a lot, but when you really get into housing and custom builds, you chew through it quickly. :) Most major projects push right up against that 2,500 limit.
Open world housing simply cannot support that level of customization and those item limits. It has to be instanced.
philo said:It was separate though. It was put on an island for a reason. It wasn't amongst other content where people are normally hunting or leveling.
There were also housing areas in the continents. In zones with npc, monsters, etc.
It was not just islands. It was on mainland as well as islands.
If outposts don't work out and they can't make housing link to gameplay and be a part in the world then I think the answer is not having it instead of damaging the vision and just putting in cosmetic instance housing.
This game isn't going to flop from lack of housing. Would there be some tiny percentage more if it existed? Sure. The same is true with any number of features they could add to the game just to cast the biggest net if this were a project just about making tons of money. The game doesn't need to make WoW money to be successful and if it somehow only managed to be a success because they included instanced housing then that would just highlight a great failing in the core gameplay.