Forums » Pantheon Classes

Dual wielding shields?

    • 49 posts
    January 18, 2017 3:10 PM PST

    Sevens said:

    THis was actually talked about very seriously...and someone had posted a picture of a dual shield wielding fighter

    the shield in the weapon hand was more of a buckler and looked pretty much like a circular saw blade...it could probally do some serious damage

     

    I suppose one could use a buckler and a regular shield at the same time with the buckler offering the option to punch, but most times when you use a shield to attack you lose your defensive features.  Hence you'd be better off with something like a shield strapped to the forearm which would still allow for the articulated use of the hands, or a shield/gauntlet combo.  There are images and instances of both if you google them.

    Uses of a "standard" buckler - 

    • Hand protection: The primary use of the buckler was to protect the sword hand.
    • Deflector: The buckler's lightness and curved center made it excellent for deflecting attacking blades.
    • Blinder: The light blades used in conjunction with the buckler depended on rapid movements, which meant that a single second was an important advantage. The wielder of the buckler could use the buckler to shield his sword-hand's position from view, keeping his opponent from guessing his next strike.
    • "Metal fist": A buckler could be used to directly attack an opponent by punching with either its flat face or its rim.
    • Binder: The buckler could be used to bind an opponent's sword hand and weapon as well as their buckler against their body. The buckler was also very useful in grappling, where it allowed an opponent's arms to be easily wrapped up and controlled.

     


    This post was edited by Dwyvyrn at January 18, 2017 3:23 PM PST
    • 49 posts
    January 18, 2017 3:26 PM PST

     

     "a shield strapped to the forearm which would still allow for the articulated use of the hands..."


    This post was edited by Dwyvyrn at January 18, 2017 3:27 PM PST
    • 839 posts
    January 18, 2017 4:06 PM PST

    Dwyvyrn said:

     "a shield strapped to the forearm which would still allow for the articulated use of the hands..."

    Havent used sucha thing before but i would imagine it would only be truly useful with spear / pike type weapons because of the flexability issues with slashing weapons.  I think i would always preference Solid metal Vambraces and a goood pair of Gauntlets over this, but thats only discussing realism not game mechanics.  Maybe if it did not come so far up the the users hand it woud be better but vambraces are allow the user to be so fast and allow you full freedom of movement which is crutial when in close quarters.  Possibly that is more used to deflect arrows for a spearman and in that circumstance it looks good!

    Your concept of using an off hand buckler as a weapon is great and i always loved punching peoples smaller weapons like 1h swords straight back at them! unfortunately you can only use it to guide the direction of a large weapon  or mace away from you as they would likely break your arm if you tried to punch one of those!


    This post was edited by Hokanu at January 18, 2017 4:10 PM PST
    • 151 posts
    January 20, 2017 7:06 PM PST

    Remember that a shield and a buckler are very different, one is relatively small and is mostly used to protect the hand while the other is large and can sometimes basically protect the entire body.

    Another thing. Why would you choose to have 2 shields or shield+buckler or buckler+buckler when you can switch one of those shields or bucklers with a sword, or mace, or axe, if you have a shield that covers your entire body, what good would that second shield do you, and what are you going to do with that buckler on your hand, punch people? Attach a blade on it and cut people? Well, then you just have a cup-hilt saber or basket-hilt broadsword basically.

    • 49 posts
    January 23, 2017 5:30 AM PST

    Youmu said:

    Remember that a shield and a buckler are very different, one is relatively small and is mostly used to protect the hand while the other is large and can sometimes basically protect the entire body.

    Another thing. Why would you choose to have 2 shields or shield+buckler or buckler+buckler when you can switch one of those shields or bucklers with a sword, or mace, or axe, if you have a shield that covers your entire body, what good would that second shield do you, and what are you going to do with that buckler on your hand, punch people? Attach a blade on it and cut people? Well, then you just have a cup-hilt saber or basket-hilt broadsword basically.

    I think we understand what a buckler is... I pretty well described its useage above.  I don't disagree that two shields would be a bit odd, but I think we are all just exploring/sharing thoughts on the idea.

    • 97 posts
    January 23, 2017 6:54 AM PST

    For me, 2 shields would only work in a fight where you have had a while to build up alot of agro, and want to switch to 2 shields to improve the block chance to make it easier on heals in a raid.  I can't see 2 shields being a full time way for a tank to want to play in groups though.

    • 191 posts
    January 23, 2017 8:32 AM PST

    I'm a big fan of shields and even I had to snicker at this one!  That said, folks have made a lot of surprisingly compelling arguments.  I love to see interesting ideas discussed here and this is certainly that. 

    Regardless of how you feel about duel wielding shields, I've noticed a theme in this discussion that I'd like to address.

    A lot of folks in here seem to react to this idea by saying something to the effect of: This won't work because you need to do damage and shields don't do damage!

     

    I think folks are looking at this wrong, so here are a series of responses on that:

     

    Aggelos said: ...he would be my last target because what damage could he really do...

    What if he's got a really foul mouth and just insulted your mother?  The point being that offensive potential isn't the only way to get somebody to attack you.

    Aggelos said: ...would we require two different "types" of shields...?

    I think abilities could be designed such that offensive benefit could be derived from defensive stats.

    Dkeesling007 said: As a tank you need the ability to generate agro.

    Probably - "agro" isn't a fundamental property of the universe.  Regardless, I agree this is effectively true.

    Dkeesling007 said: Most of that comes from the ability to do damage.

    Big assumption.  This is justy one way it could be designed.  I'd argue not the best way.

    darksaber8570 said: Of course there is the agro generation issue so I am not sure how that will work.

    Decoupling agro generation from raw damage output really opens up a lot of options mechanics-wise.  There's no reason why an aggro system can't be designed to rely on... pick a thing.

    BeaverBiscuit said: Lots of people talk about an inverse relationship between aggro and defense.

    Yeah, but I argue that they're looking at pantheon through the lens of some other game(s).  It doesn't have to be that way.

    Gragorie said: I can't see 2 shields being a full time way for a tank to want to play in groups though.

    Is that because you don't think it'd be fun, or because you're assuming a lot about mechanics?


    This post was edited by Shai at January 23, 2017 8:34 AM PST
    • 151 posts
    January 23, 2017 9:07 AM PST

    We got the Shield! We got Bucklers! One more enters the arena of non-offensiveness, the portable wall, the crossbowers favorite, the Pavise!

    If we going ridicolous, lets just go the whole way.

    • 191 posts
    January 23, 2017 9:43 AM PST

    To be fair... that's effectively what the cleric's placeable shield is.

    • 97 posts
    January 23, 2017 11:27 AM PST

    Shai said:

    I'm a big fan of shields and even I had to snicker at this one!  That said, folks have made a lot of surprisingly compelling arguments.  I love to see interesting ideas discussed here and this is certainly that. 

    Regardless of how you feel about duel wielding shields, I've noticed a theme in this discussion that I'd like to address.

    A lot of folks in here seem to react to this idea by saying something to the effect of: This won't work because you need to do damage and shields don't do damage!

     

    I think folks are looking at this wrong, so here are a series of responses on that:

    Gragorie said: I can't see 2 shields being a full time way for a tank to want to play in groups though.

    Is that because you don't think it'd be fun, or because you're assuming a lot about mechanics?

    \

    Based upon what I have seen, I am basing it on mechanics.  For starters, it appears caster damage is not going to be a static number like EQ (at least on the progression server where I played), where a spell did a constant x damage.  If that was the case, then removing damage from agro might work.  From watching the streams, it appears it will be more like in VG, where a spell would do variable damage.  My wizard had a spell in VG that the tooltip said around 8500 dps, but it normally hit anywhere from 20K to 70K after modifiers.  I had that in the millions a few times as well against mobs weak to cold.  Agro has to have damaged factored in otherwise your dps will just unload on mobs with zero consequence.  Shields don't do enough damage to hold agro, unless they put in very large hate modifiers on shield attacks or blocks. 

     

    If you have a different solution, I would like to hear it. I personnally cant see one that would work if damage works in this game like in VG.  I searched and didnt see any threads about how damage was going to be calculated either.  I watched the wizard stream and the same spell was doing different damage each time it was cast, thats where I am basing my assumptions from. 

     

     

    • 151 posts
    January 23, 2017 12:23 PM PST

    Shai said:

    To be fair... that's effectively what the cleric's placeable shield is.

    That is true. So I bring to you, the heavy weight fighter in the blue corner of historic oddities. The Dueling Shield!

    • 839 posts
    January 23, 2017 8:37 PM PST

    Youmu said:

    Shai said:

    To be fair... that's effectively what the cleric's placeable shield is.

    That is true. So I bring to you, the heavy weight fighter in the blue corner of historic oddities. The Dueling Shield!

    Haha very interesting!!

    Going away from my usual realism theme in this thread... I could envisage a cool spinning attack using 2 shields that essentially knocks all enemies surrounding you backwards and down! could be used as a bit of a "oh sh**" moment skill if you happen to have a second shield in your inventory.

    • 780 posts
    January 24, 2017 6:18 AM PST

    So why not some giant, bladed, two-handed shield like in Youmu's image, rather than dual-wielding two little shields?

    • 2886 posts
    January 24, 2017 6:19 AM PST

    I think it's important to not get too stuck on realism or historical accuracy in this case. The fact of the matter is, this would be a very unique and fun playstyle and ultimately I think that's what matters. I really don't think it's that hard to imagine a dual-shield-wielding Warrior doing enough damage to hold aggro. Again, I challenge anyone to let me slam them with a huge spiked shield and then tell me it didn't hurt lol. Would they be putting out as much dmg as a rogue? Of course not? Would it even be as much dmg as if they were holding a sword instead? Probably not. But would it be enough? Yes.

    I'm not even saying there should be a whole class dedicated to this playstyle. Perhaps not even an entire Warrior specialization (although that would be really cool.) Can we at least agree that there should be some pseudo-offensive shields that can be equipped in a main hand? (probably have the option of equipping it to either primary or off-hand) Perhaps even Crusaders or Dire Lords could have access to these types? I can imagine these types of shields would probably only be found in mid to high levels as they would be most useful in raiding situations when you can sacrifice a little bit of dps for a little extra defense.

    As a side note: I think it'd be awesome if there were a shield in-game similar to the types of riot taser shields correctional officers use in prisons. The shield face is electrically charged and when it comes in contact with someone, it discharges and they are stunned. I can definitely see that being useful :D

     

    • 151 posts
    January 24, 2017 7:45 AM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    I think it's important to not get too stuck on realism or historical accuracy in this case. The fact of the matter is, this would be a very unique and fun playstyle and ultimately I think that's what matters. I really don't think it's that hard to imagine a dual-shield-wielding Warrior doing enough damage to hold aggro. Again, I challenge anyone to let me slam them with a huge spiked shield and then tell me it didn't hurt lol. Would they be putting out as much dmg as a rogue? Of course not? Would it even be as much dmg as if they were holding a sword instead? Probably not. But would it be enough? Yes.

    I'm not even saying there should be a whole class dedicated to this playstyle. Perhaps not even an entire Warrior specialization (although that would be really cool.) Can we at least agree that there should be some pseudo-offensive shields that can be equipped in a main hand? (probably have the option of equipping it to either primary or off-hand) Perhaps even Crusaders or Dire Lords could have access to these types? I can imagine these types of shields would probably only be found in mid to high levels as they would be most useful in raiding situations when you can sacrifice a little bit of dps for a little extra defense.

    As a side note: I think it'd be awesome if there were a shield in-game similar to the types of riot taser shields correctional officers use in prisons. The shield face is electrically charged and when it comes in contact with someone, it discharges and they are stunned. I can definitely see that being useful :D

     

    The thing is that "realism" and historical accuracy is really the only thing that matters here. Aggro generation? Can be changed. Playstyle? You could make the same playstyle with any other weapon combination (Also talking about playstyle for a game we don't know is not valid imo). Those are just numbers. For me this is more about the immersion of it. It does not take a lot of thinking to see that dual-wielding shields is non-sensical, it requires A LOT to establish verisimilitude and suspend ones disbelief for something like this imo.

    • 839 posts
    January 24, 2017 2:29 PM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    I think it's important to not get too stuck on realism or historical accuracy in this case. The fact of the matter is, this would be a very unique and fun playstyle and ultimately I think that's what matters. I really don't think it's that hard to imagine a dual-shield-wielding Warrior doing enough damage to hold aggro. Again, I challenge anyone to let me slam them with a huge spiked shield and then tell me it didn't hurt lol. Would they be putting out as much dmg as a rogue? Of course not? Would it even be as much dmg as if they were holding a sword instead? Probably not. But would it be enough? Yes.

    I'm not even saying there should be a whole class dedicated to this playstyle. Perhaps not even an entire Warrior specialization (although that would be really cool.) Can we at least agree that there should be some pseudo-offensive shields that can be equipped in a main hand? (probably have the option of equipping it to either primary or off-hand) Perhaps even Crusaders or Dire Lords could have access to these types? I can imagine these types of shields would probably only be found in mid to high levels as they would be most useful in raiding situations when you can sacrifice a little bit of dps for a little extra defense.

    As a side note: I think it'd be awesome if there were a shield in-game similar to the types of riot taser shields correctional officers use in prisons. The shield face is electrically charged and when it comes in contact with someone, it discharges and they are stunned. I can definitely see that being useful :D

     

    Your 100% right brother, I get too enthusiastic with my fighting in the old days reminiscing on these subjects and start to nerd out a bit on the topic!  Definitely can agree and see in game 2 shields not only looking cool but offering some unique stance / skill opportunities! 

    Liking an electrified shield, maybe a proc chance on a successful block in the off hand

    • 97 posts
    January 24, 2017 8:26 PM PST

    It would be interesting, but I dont see it as a viable tank option.  It would work better with a cloth or leather armor wearer that woud have the mobility to swing there arms around freely.  A hybrid dual shield wielding monk class would be more effective.  Watching a character with heavy clunky armor trying to fight with 2 large or kite shields would be more comical then useful. 


    This post was edited by Gragorie at January 24, 2017 8:27 PM PST
    • 220 posts
    January 28, 2017 2:11 PM PST

    I wrote a fan fication about a crusader who used dual shields. I imagined they would stack on one another and separate when you wanted them to. Of course I didn't believe he could fight with them. Instead, I used them in the tale as a temporary shield wall defense booster / CC usage. It would be interesting if there was some sort of phalanx mechanic for some world fights. 

    In the last dev talk between kilsin, medawky and VoT, there was some talk about dual shields but the feeling I got was that the internal test didn't work out of there wasn't much support for the style (as such may be abandoned). Again just a feeling I got. I still stand by temporary use tho

    • 1 posts
    January 28, 2017 3:29 PM PST

    This would be something very interesting with duel shields as a tank! I am more the traditional sword & board type of tanks, but it would be "different," just not sure if i'd like the animation versus traditional.

    The Knights, I've always been very traditional on also, why? Because just the entire history of Knights using sword & boards, or a 2-handed claymore slicing through enemies! 

    Either way this would be something interesting to see, no doubt.

    The buckler idea from EQ2, was scouts, which was cool, and I tanked as a scout, i'd like to see something like that in the game also, maybe a swash or Brig?

     

    Khorben

     

     

    • 49 posts
    January 30, 2017 4:39 PM PST

    Gragorie said:

    It would be interesting, but I dont see it as a viable tank option.  It would work better with a cloth or leather armor wearer that woud have the mobility to swing there arms around freely.  A hybrid dual shield wielding monk class would be more effective.  Watching a character with heavy clunky armor trying to fight with 2 large or kite shields would be more comical then useful. 

     

    To be honest I'd see this more as a Cleric option if I'd have to pin it to a class.  Someone who isn't really concerned about doing any damage at all...

    • 154 posts
    March 30, 2017 12:16 AM PDT
    Do not pay attention to anything on kickstarter, they have scrapped that and everything is more solid now.