There is really no answer and no solid justification to go either way.
Having maps available by pressing the M key in game, or having a map from a wiki on your second monitor is identical functionally. The only thing you lack is "GPS" that shows your location, but that isn't really the most important function of a map anyway.
EQ was interesting without maps in the beginning because of a few reasons:
1. Half the races were practically blind and couldn't see past a certain point. Not being able to see distant landmarks made it difficult to find your position from relative markers.
2. Lack of widespread resources, a.k.a the light speed propagation of information we have with modern internet.
3. Two decades of foreknowledge of MMORPGs.
Whether or not maps are included in Pantheon is completely arbitrary. I would bet that maps made by professional developers would be more accurate, aesthetic, and self-evidently professional compared to their community sourced counterparts.
Not only that, but I believe there are also benefits to be had in cultivating a positive outlook on the game from players. A lot of people will look at a modern MMO without maps and see it as clunky and unprofessional. I personally see it that way, but I will play regardless.
Arguing that it makes the game more challenging to not have them included is silly, and not factual in the least.
I think it's a poor decision on the part of the developers to not include them, but I digress.
If we do get an in game map, what would be really nice is not just pins, but a basic icon set that you can "draw" on the map. (Building, Pin, Circle, Book, Label). Where just basic geographical shape is discovered similar to EQ1 lines are discovered. I loved map making in EQ1!
I think if there are going to be in-game maps, it could be powerful to tie them into gameplay systems, since you can then tune their cost vs their convenience. If there's a system whereby I have to spend either mana/gold/crafting skill/etc to somehow acquire or even use a map, that can turn maps' artificial convenience into a cool themed feature. Even in that case, the maps should probably not be pixel-perfect and accurate. The main thing to avoid with maps, I think, is the player not needing to look at and learn the landscape of the 3d world.
I also think that in-game maps shouldn't provide GPS functionality such that your current position is marked, although even that could theoretically be wrapped in something like a specialized, mana-intensive, duration-constrained spell. That seems like it would transform the "here's an updated marker of your current position" from something artificial and a bit lame to themed and satisfying. I'm not actually proposing that be implemented, but rather that when something is wrapped in game systems it becomes themed and has costs associated with it that can be tuned.
Liav said:There is really no answer and no solid justification to go either way.
Having maps available by pressing the M key in game, or having a map from a wiki on your second monitor is identical functionally.
EQ was interesting without maps in the beginning because of a few reasons:
1. Half the races were practically blind and couldn't see past a certain point. Not being able to see distant landmarks made it difficult to find your position from relative markers.
2. Lack of widespread resources, a.k.a the light speed propagation of information we have with modern internet.
3. Two decades of foreknowledge of MMORPGs.
A lot of people will look at a modern MMO without maps and see it as clunky and unprofessional. I personally see it that way, but I will play regardless.
Arguing that it makes the game more challenging to not have them included is silly, and not factual in the least.
I think it's a poor decision on the part of the developers to not include them, but I digress.
Well I dont use a 2nd monitor to play ANY game so would not do that or choose to do that even if I had a 2nd monitor but as you said its a matter of personal opinion and playstyle.
1. Agreed. I had more fun being blind at night and NOT knowing where I was going, running into mobs I had never seen before, only added to the fun. Try running into an Evil Eye at night. Scared the hell out of me BUT it was funny as hell at least that 1st time. IF I had had a map and it told me where they were I could have just run around that area and missed out on the memory I now have.
2. Obviously you are correct. Its only gotten worse/better. Depends on your viewpoint. Besides games its made life alot more chaotic I think and it hasnt made anything more factual.
3. Again you are obviously correct. Its hard to say games havent gotten better to a point, at least graphically. For myself EQ is and has been by far the best overall game I have EVER played and I have played alot of games. EQ2 didnt hold a candle to EQ for many many reasons. WoW? Forget about it EXCEPT for the original battlegrounds like Alterac Valley before they screwed with it. I wont go into the other games but suffice it to say there are obviously many many ppl that agree with my thought about EQ, otherwise they wouldnt be here waiting for Pantheon to come out, just like you are.
To say games are clunky or unprofessional because they dont have maps is an opinion and personally I dont agree just like several others have also said they dont agree. To me maps dont make a game feel more REAL or less real. They just take away part of that immersion I have talked about on other threads as I dont want to or need to know what is lying just beyond that next hill. I will find out for myself soon enuf.
As to saying maps dont make the game more challenging can vary on your playstyle. IF you know where to go to do something that in and of itself makes it easier. Once you have gone and scouted out an area yourself and actually found what was there THEN you know to avoid certain areas. There were many places in EQ where it was not a good place to go afk or even study when you had to look at your book and couldnt see anything around you. It was amazing how often the sand giants and other mobs would sneak up on me and I for whatever reason never heard them coming. IF I had known they were there then I might have chosen to study elsewhere but the very 1st time I never saw/heard them.
As to the devs not including map, personally I agree with it since its going back to its roots and that was a game without maps. Some ppl want them and others like yourself dont. As you yourself said, its easy enuf to just pull it up on another monitor if you really want to, so why include something so many dont seem to want? Once its in you cant take it out. I like the idea of cartography as a skill. Then you can make one yourself as you explore and play the game instead of relying on someone else outside of the game do it for you.
I see both sides of the story like you said but for myself I prefer no maps while you do. As you said I would/will play either way but just not use maps if they had been included. You always provide good discussion points.
I respect your opinions, but I still disagree with the "why include something so many don't seem to want".
This forum represents less than 1% of the likely players the game will eventually have at release. EQ was/is a very niche game, and while Pantheon is serving that niche it also has its own identity, and some features (or lack thereof) I feel draw needless potential negatives without many upsides.
The overwhelming majority of players will reference external maps. I understand and respect what you consider to be your playstyle, but I'd be surprised if more than a very small number of the playerbase didn't reference external maps to some extent. A second monitor isn't even necessary, it was just an example.
If people are going to disadvantage themselves by not looking at external maps on principle, then they can just as easily ignore the in-game maps. I'm sure someone can come up with an argument to flip that logic around on me as well, which is exactly why I feel there isn't really a right or wrong answer.
I personally feel that a lot of people will find a lack of in-game maps to be a turnoff. I don't have hard numbers to back this up, nor do I have a practical way to collect them. I'm simply someone caught between two worlds as far as gaming demographics goes, so I have an idea of what people who aren't 100% Pantheon's target demographic might feel. Removing essential game features "because 1999 EQ" just seems like a very shortsighted decision to me that will create needless criticism and offer nothing positive to the majority of players.
I agree with Liav here. Yes I would say that there are many here on the forums who would prefer a no map system but not by all means everyone as is clear here in this thread. Im on the other side and prefer some sort of a hybrid as stated before. Looking at the larger picture however I would venture to say that a large part of the gaming community does pefer some kind of map system.
Will it alone change an individual's mind about playing this game? I would think not but it, along with several other things, may well have an accumulative effect.
All of that said VR has made it clear they are not out to please the entire gaming community but are instead after a niche market and a no map system plays to this market to some degree.
As I said earlier in another thread. It is impossible for VR to satisfy everyone and there will always be things within a MMO individuals do not like. In my opinion, as long as they hold true to their ideals, they will attract exactly those which they are aiming to attract... one of which is me.
I understand people's view either way , what I can say it might be counter productive. That player , that gets lost because not having a basic map function and flat out quits the game out of frustration because there lost. The average time to retain a player , from initial perception of the game is small.
Xxar said:I understand people's view either way , what I can say it might be counter productive. That player , that gets lost because not having a basic map function and flat out quits the game out of frustration because there lost. The average time to retain a player , from initial perception of the game is small.
That exact reason is partly why so many ppl have such fond memories of EQ. BECAUSE you could get lost without "cheating". You actually had to go out and explore and LEARN the world. Later on after several expacs they put in the book and ppl could just port to whatever zone they wanted to. Those ppl who NEVER learned the world missed out on half of the game as far as I am concerned. I guess the dif is that some ppl wanted to learn the game AND its geography and those that just want to kill mobs. I liked doing both and I found alot of interesting places in the game that I NEVER went to on a raid. IF I hadnt done my own exploring I would never have seen them and to this day not have any memories of them. As it is you could say "well if you never knew they were there you wouldnt miss them". Well thats true BUT for me exploring the unknown is a big part of why I like games. Every expac you get to explore an entirely new part of the world. Sort of like Columbus sailing off the edge of the map back in the day. He had no idea what was out there and there WERE no maps. That is how I look at it. I know its a small thing for some ppl for for me I can get inside of the monitor and feel as tho I am part of the game while exploring. IF some ppl cant/dont understand that then its hard to explain.
Getting lost in an MMO world in 2017 is not going to happen. I still feel like you're ignoring the circumstances that allowed that to happen. Not having maps is a part of it, but it is a fraction of the whole.
You're talking from a pretty unique and/or farfetched perspective, which is kind of my point.
1. The fact that you personally have navigational issues in modern MMOs doesn't mean that most other people must as well.
2. People who use cell phones and apps have an umbilical cord? This sounds like an anti-millennial meme. Pretty insulting, honestly.
3. Characterizing people who use some form of technology as enjoying nature less than you is also pretty insulting.
4. Not everyone has the ability to hike in nature. Believe it or not, people have schedules and driving 30 minutes to run outside instead of a treadmill isn't always an option. If you want to get your recommended amount of cardio in every week, it is insufficient for a lot of people to not attend a gym.
5. Characterizing people who use maps as not wanting to enjoy life as much as they can is not only bizarre, but also the third relatively insulting thing you've said in this post.
As to your question, no, I would not have been willing and neither would 99.9% of the world population. However, I fail to see how this pertains to a video game.
In all seriousness this particular post of yours is 50% insulting, 50% ignoring things I've already stated multiple times such as the fact that the majority of the playerbase will reference maps regardless of if they exist in game.
Edit: Typos. I'm also just going to leave this thread alone tbh. It'd be cool if we could have conversations without insulting entire groups of people for really dumb, arbitrary reasons.
sunstalkr said:Liav said:Getting lost in an MMO world in 2017 is not going to happen. I still feel like you're ignoring the circumstances that allowed that to happen. Not having maps is a part of it, but it is a fraction of the whole.
lol I WILL get lost at some point. I am pretty good at remembering my way but until the 1st maps come out whats going to stop ppl from getting lost? Esp those that just run thru zones just to do it? I WANT to get lost, lost in the game. I have an atlas in my car as I refuse to get a cell phone so no apps for me either. I just cant stand having that umbilical cord other ppl seem to need. When I am not at work I dont want to be bothered UNLESS its family or friends. I like to hike alot and its funny that I will be hiking whereever and see so many ppl with bluetooth or something else stuck in their ears. They are out in the wilds but cant even be bothered to enjoy it. Why bother going outside, why not just join a gym, so you dont have to drive but a few miles from your house. I like seeing nature and hearing wildlife, even just listening to the wind blowing thru the trees. I cant get that at my office or the gym and wouldnt trade it for anything. You only live once as far as I know so I want to enjoy as much as I can. Maybe that explains a few things as to why I like not having maps, maybe it doesnt.
Question Liav. IF you had lived back when Columbus sailed would you have been willing to take that chance and explore the world or would you have stayed at home and done whatever mundane job you had?
The first thing explorers (especially sea captains) did was to map the area they explored. Before everybody had a phone with apps, people in the real world used maps to plan trips. If you have an atlas in your car then you are doing what people did for hundreds of years. VR has said there will be no in game maps. To bad I would have loved to make maps like the explorers of long ago. To me it would enhance the game.
Questaar
The first thing explorers (especially sea captains) did was to map the area they explored. Before everybody had a phone with apps, people in the real world used maps to plan trips. If you have an atlas in your car then you are doing what people did for hundreds of years. VR has said there will be no in game maps. To bad I would have loved to make maps like the explorers of long ago. To me it would enhance the game.
Obviously thats true about the sea captains. I agree with you totally that it would be great to actually make the map.
Edit: Once again I'm getting too involved in discussions that just don't even matter in the first place. Apologies.
Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map.
Liav said:There is really no answer and no solid justification to go either way.
Having maps available by pressing the M key in game, or having a map from a wiki on your second monitor is identical functionally. The only thing you lack is "GPS" that shows your location, but that isn't really the most important function of a map anyway.
EQ was interesting without maps in the beginning because of a few reasons:
1. Half the races were practically blind and couldn't see past a certain point. Not being able to see distant landmarks made it difficult to find your position from relative markers.
2. Lack of widespread resources, a.k.a the light speed propagation of information we have with modern internet.
3. Two decades of foreknowledge of MMORPGs.
Whether or not maps are included in Pantheon is completely arbitrary. I would bet that maps made by professional developers would be more accurate, aesthetic, and self-evidently professional compared to their community sourced counterparts.
Not only that, but I believe there are also benefits to be had in cultivating a positive outlook on the game from players. A lot of people will look at a modern MMO without maps and see it as clunky and unprofessional. I personally see it that way, but I will play regardless.
Arguing that it makes the game more challenging to not have them included is silly, and not factual in the least.
I think it's a poor decision on the part of the developers to not include them, but I digress.
This, for me. Just have map be like EQ2 / WoW. It clears off After you've been there. until then, it's covered. But. I get why you don't want to do maps and I am ok with that.
Maps are nice but I won't cry if they aren't there. So, all good.
Kilsin said:Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map.
No maps Kilsin? Awesome! This game should garner a nice following of more hardcore/diehard game players that reject the current trend.
Never understood why people come to this game and say stupid stuff like "it's 2017, must have a map" and want to turn this game into garbage WoW clone #2,189. PLEASE stick to your vision and do not give into dumbing down / turning the game into a theme park which would ultimately lead to this game becoming a cash shop failure.
Zybane said:Kilsin said:Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map.
No maps Kilsin? Awesome! This game should garner a nice following of more hardcore/diehard game players that reject the current trend.
Never understood why people come to this game and say stupid stuff like "it's 2017, must have a map" and want to turn this game into garbage WoW clone #2,189. PLEASE stick to your vision and do not give into dumbing down / turning the game into a theme park which would ultimately lead to this game becoming a cash shop failure.
I agree 100%
Kilsin said:Let's just take a deep breath and remember these are your personal opinions folks, some will love maps, some will despise them, either way, we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game and we have not decided on a cartography skill or not yet but it is something we could consider down the track.
If we get into testing and get overwhelming feedback that a map is needed, we can then look at options but for now, our focus is on getting the game into testing and that does not include a map.
No maps is really unfortunate. I was so looking forward to this game, too. I survived EQ, EQ2, and now playing P99. I don't have it in me to learn another world again. I am sure this is fantastic news to the people who long to print off 3rd party maps and put it in their Trapper Keeper, like some antiquated Thomas Guide. Not I. I am too old and too forgetful. Heck, some days I can't even remember how to get to the bathroom...in my own house...that I have owned for 20 years. I discovered the no-maps thing from an old thread, but didn't see a moderator post on it. I am glad I have the info confirmed before I pledged for my husband and I. I will check back periodically to see if there are any changes in directions, but for now, this is a non-starter for me, unfortunately.
Happy hunting folks and good luck with the game!
Bels I wouldn't be too worried about the lack of maps. A simple map of how the zones connect together will likely be enough to guide you through most of the solo traveling. Outside of solo traveling most travelling will need to be done in groups in which case you will be able to follow the more spatially adept. My wife is similarly challenged with remembering maps and relative locations so she usually just follows me around both in and out of game.
World map, with limited zoom abilities.
Par this is a cartography skill that makes the map more detailed the higher the skill, and I think that would be a good option.
No mini map though. Ruins immersion and I often find myself looking only a the mini map for long periods of time.
I'm in the "no built in maps" or, as Pyye suggested, "Low detail world map and zone maps with no details that can be filled in" camp. I don't want a mini-map or a GPS. I might be okay with a GPS that is skill-based (I remember having to level up /loc, if memory serves correctly, in the very early days). I'm cool with cartography as a skill as long as it isn't just a sort of "Fog of War" that reveals maps as one travels but involves active mapping and maybe finding map fragments. Make it all part of the game and added "mini-game". But never make it a loadable "map-pac" or something of the sort. Nothing that is auto-magically done for you. And nothing that eventually becomes a click and auto-travel.
DragonFist said:I'm in the "no built in maps" or, as Pyye suggested, "Low detail world map and zone maps with no details that can be filled in" camp. I don't want a mini-map or a GPS. I might be okay with a GPS that is skill-based (I remember having to level up /loc, if memory serves correctly, in the very early days). I'm cool with cartography as a skill as long as it isn't just a sort of "Fog of War" that reveals maps as one travels but involves active mapping and maybe finding map fragments. Make it all part of the game and added "mini-game". But never make it a loadable "map-pac" or something of the sort. Nothing that is auto-magically done for you. And nothing that eventually becomes a click and auto-travel.
I am on P99. /loc is free. Compass (you are going west, northwest, etc., text in chat) is leveled.
I don't have it in me to memorize another virtual world map. Maybe its because I am old, or because when I get on game I want a challenge but not have it be ridiculous right from the get-go. I am hoping "the powers that be" put hooks in where a 3rd party/custom UI can be created including a map system. I am happy to code up my own system as long as there is an api to reference or put the coordinates (/loc) in the logs every 2-3 steps, and have some downloadable overland maps available. The current plan of record to release with no maps is an insurmountable obstacle. I really wanted something new and shiny to play, but Pantheon is begining to sound more like P99 with a better graphics engine and prettier artwork.
Kilsin said:...we have made our decision to not include maps in Pantheon, we will have an Atlas of the Terminus world and if people want to create their own maps externally, that is great, we encourage teamwork and the community coming together like that but we will not offer one in game...
Bestest news ever!
Love love love LOVE this decision and the overall entire culture/attitude that drives it.
Bels said:I am on P99. /loc is free. Compass (you are going west, northwest, etc., text in chat) is leveled.
I don't have it in me to memorize another virtual world map. Maybe its because I am old, or because when I get on game I want a challenge but not have it be ridiculous right from the get-go. I am hoping "the powers that be" put hooks in where a 3rd party/custom UI can be created including a map system. I am happy to code up my own system as long as there is an api to reference or put the coordinates (/loc) in the logs every 2-3 steps, and have some downloadable overland maps available. The current plan of record to release with no maps is an insurmountable obstacle. I really wanted something new and shiny to play, but Pantheon is begining to sound more like P99 with a better graphics engine and prettier artwork.
I wouldn't sweat it too much just yet. Nothing is cemented until the testing is done. Brad, while he and the team are in favor of not having maps, they have not 100% ruled it out as of yet. He pretty much confirmed it's still something that might be on the table in their monk gameplay stream with Cohh, so there may be maps of some sort before launch, or there might not. That will be decided in testing.
https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=50m10s