philo said: People seem pretty excited for info that is a year or more old. Is it a valid discussion at this point? We all know there are no minimaps or zone maps don't we?
Well, Kilson did say a while back he'd rather have an old thread necroed than to start a new one on the same subject so... :p
pfft, maps? we don't need no stinking maps!!
I remember when you had to learn your way around by going there and seeing it and hopefully remembering enough, to then eventually find your way back home.
on a bike...
when I was 9...
so, I didn't get my arse beat bloody for getting home after the sun went down.
you know, in real life!
Do you need GPS to get to the store down the street? No! You know why? Because "repetition" IS the mother of ALL skill, my friend!
Yes, is it gonna be hard at first? Most likely, just like moving to a new town/Neighborhood and having to , at some point venture out and get familiar with your new surroundings.
The first time, I drove to my (then at the time) new home, in this new rustic " in the sticks" town from the city I left, I was taken aback at how dark it was on the roads at night, and all the turns and twists , with the giant Oak trees sticking out on the corners. Barely wide enough one lane roads, blind corners that require you to slow down to 5-10mph, and literally HONK YOUR HORN twice, to let anyone potentially coming know of your presence. Was , well , to be totally honest with you, scary as hell the first few times.
Now I drive it with my eyes closed, because I know each turn like the back of my hand.
nah, we don't need no stinking maps!! We figure it out eventually. With our brains and a little luck, or with our faces because we were lame ducks!
No maps in-game at all. None. Just like EQ originally. Waste of VR development resources.
- save VR a whole lot of needless work, they have enough to do with the rest of the game systems
- nomaps in 2018 == no maps in 1999, nothing germaine to this has changed - external maps will still be created now as they were back then
- in RL, you only use a map when you are in an unknown place ... which is precisely when you will definitely NOT get one in-game
- be honest, the only reason for an in-game (vs. external) map is to show where you are on it, which is definitely NOT something I want ... if you say you just want a static reference map, go to EQ Atlas 2018, problem solved
- if you want to doodle on your own map, again ... go to EQ Atlas 2018 or one of the other common sites I'm sure will spring up, download a phone app, whatever ... just don't bother the game with the overhead of it
- VR will rue adding any map since it will just make the world seem smaller and trivial to navigate, increasing the amount of sheer content they have to invent to keep up with this shrinking perception
- if your brain can't tell you which way to go, then guess what? you get lost and find your way by asking others, learning, and not repeating it ... just like in RL
- forget other MMOs, this isn't them ... it is supposed to be dangerous, challenging, social and vast like EQ used to be
PAY ATTENTION TO THE WORLD IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES, it isn't hard and I still remember every EQ zone I was ever in ... because I had to know the world I was in
I have yet to figure out why people feel that getting lost and having no idea where they are is *fun*. I certainly do not.
Real life explorers and travelers in unknown areas made maps and had a reasonable idea of where they were. I don't understand why it would be so bad to have a map or minimap showing what our characters can readily see with their own eyes and record on paper or papyrus. Just because modern games have conveniences doesn't make them automatically *bad*.
What I agree with is not showing what our characters cannot see or know. No dots on a map showing creatures out of eyesight.
Might and Magic introduced cartography to the CRPG world lo these many decades ago - I was so happy when they did that. Mapping has *always* been a big plus to me. And that was more than 10 years before EQ so going back to the way things were in 1999 (awful idea to begin with much of how games worked then was due to technological limitations not because the designers wanted it that way) does NOT mean avoid in-game maps.
The /loc was too much of potential not to trivialize the environment. However I am really hoping for an item compass you have to buy or make yourself in order to locate north, with some perturbed areas messing with magnetic poles, instead of a sense heading skill.
Moss on trees could be cool as hints of cardinal points.
Kalok said:I like the idea of a compass and a /loc system, and maybe some sort of skill based cartography system that starts out bad but gets beetter as your skill level raises, but no mass in-game maps.
Hmm it would be an interesting interaction if you had an ingame object map that you could look at and fill out in some way through adventuring or paying money to an NPC. Then when you look at it you calculate your location on the map. Based on your perception and orientiering skill you get a general circle on the map that you are in. The higher your skills the smaller the circle. Just a thought.
Definately no mini-map. In EQ I always ended up literally "driving by map" running through most zones.
I would like a overall World map with a small blip showing you where you are however.
As much as I loved EQ back in the pre-map days, this is 2018. Some things can be convienence factors for a justifiable reason.
I know that my opinion on this will not mesh with the "purists" out there, but this is just an opinion. :)
One way to solve this problem would be to have different map options, that can be activated and deactivated or even the possibility to make settings on how detailed ones maps should be displayed.
This would offer all the convienience options some people expect from a modern mmorpg, but on the other hand everyone can finetune it to his or her flavour, down until the extrem of having no map or compass at all.
Another idea would be to have a cartography profession. The longer or the more often you stay in a region, the more detailled your map of that region becomes. If someone does not want to explore a region on his own, he or she can buy the map from someone else, who now have another possibility to earn some coins.
No matter how the map stuff will be implemented in game, I would appreciate to have them in game, because it is easy to offer an option to deactivate it for people that don't want to use it, but it is impossible to offer an option to have it for people who like it, if this feature is not in the game.
Kilsin said:Narben4 said:i like a map that is discovered as you progress. this need not be particularly full of locations but it is a geographical image. Eg i go walking my house down to the river, across the river at the shallow point on to a path between somes trees. i get to a road i can see it goes east and west. this should stay with me i should not unlearn this. I have no idea if the road has a name but maybe if i keep walking there is a sign.
i don't know how long the road is and only by following should i be able to discover that.
insert cartography skill? allows me to mark items in rough detail at first then in more detail later on as i develop.
I really do not like full maps laid out for you. I do not like minimaps that bling and ping and glow so brightly i cannot see the world. But as per initial thought i am not a goldfish that forgets whether i went right or left at the big rock and found the waterfall?
Yeah, I like one that is discovered as you adventure and find new places, then mark them on your map yourself or via a pin ;)
I definately like this way of mapstyle but no maps could be fun as well, i've an open mind. give what you will.. ill do to the best of my abilty to uncover/make my own way through!
Maps maybe not as important in the beginning but it all changes later on when you have 0 newbie players coming, and when you recruit a newer person and they dont know how to get around yet, you use maps.
So what do you say? your no good at the game, we wont recruit you come back when you know more of the zones. Yet they have no way to get to the so called "End Game" lvl that others play at now.
Maps are just that a tool that you will be able to download later on, somewhere on the net.
dorotea said:I have yet to figure out why people feel that getting lost and having no idea where they are is *fun*. I certainly do not.
Real life explorers and travelers in unknown areas made maps and had a reasonable idea of where they were. I don't understand why it would be so bad to have a map or minimap showing what our characters can readily see with their own eyes and record on paper or papyrus. Just because modern games have conveniences doesn't make them automatically *bad*.
What I agree with is not showing what our characters cannot see or know. No dots on a map showing creatures out of eyesight.
Might and Magic introduced cartography to the CRPG world lo these many decades ago - I was so happy when they did that. Mapping has *always* been a big plus to me. And that was more than 10 years before EQ so going back to the way things were in 1999 (awful idea to begin with much of how games worked then was due to technological limitations not because the designers wanted it that way) does NOT mean avoid in-game maps.
One of the single most rewarding things in a game like this is learning the areas. If you want to argue there should be a cartography system, fine, I disagree but whatever, you should NEVER be able to see the actual representation of where you are or where any MOB/PC/NPC is on a map. That is not mapping, that is GPS with location sharing. It's a fake, weak mechanic for people who want their hands held so they don't actually have to learn the game. Why display on a minimap what you can see with your eyes when you can SEE IT WITH YOUR EYES? Oh, beacuse what you're suggesting is actuall a kind of GPS/RADAR around your character displaying the actual locations of things. *vomit*
dorotea said:I have yet to figure out why people feel that getting lost and having no idea where they are is *fun*. I certainly do not.
On that same note, in the hope of helping you understand...
I have yet to figure out why people feel that being attacked by a mob and dieing is *fun*. I certainly do not.
It's not about dieing, it's about surviving!
Just as it's not about getting lost, it's about finding your way!
I honestly have yet to figure out why any person would want to take away ANY potential for a "win" in a game. Without the potential for loss (be it death or taking a wrong turn and getting lost) you remove the possibility of a Win.
It's about the WIN, not the LOSS
Landbert said :
One way to solve this problem would be to have different map options, that can be activated and deactivated or even the possibility to make settings on how detailed ones maps should be displayed.
This would offer all the convienience options some people expect from a modern mmorpg, but on the other hand everyone can finetune it to his or her flavour, down until the extrem of having no map or compass at all.
I don't think this would be a solution. People don't ask for "not seeing a map themselves", as just unbinding the map shortcut would be a rather simple solution. They ask for "no map at all for everyone", so the mystery of zones, the challenge of remembering connections between areas and safe travel passages would be the same for everyone. It enforces the mutual need between players, and even if some websites draw an atlas of the game like it was the case during EQ times, as long as you have no precise idea of where you are on the map ( /loc, go away !), you have to pay attention to details, notable environnement features in order to know where you are and where you need to go to travel.
Landbert said :
Another idea would be to have a cartography profession. The longer or the more often you stay in a region, the more detailled your map of that region becomes. If someone does not want to explore a region on his own, he or she can buy the map from someone else, who now have another possibility to earn some coins.
No matter how the map stuff will be implemented in game, I would appreciate to have them in game, because it is easy to offer an option to deactivate it for people that don't want to use it, but it is impossible to offer an option to have it for people who like it, if this feature is not in the game.
I like this view way more. Because there is a logic to have maps (beginning area, cities and surroundings, merchant's roads) but there is no logic to have maps of dangerous or far away areas. However, including a way to draw maps into items and trade them would be fine, as long as it's neither as easy as EQ's maps (Ie : you draw with moving your character, making sure you allways end up with an exact representation of space and position of things), neither a tool used to draw dicks and send them to random people.
Kilsin said:Folks, just a reminder that this was one of my CM questions from back on December 7, 2015, since then, we have made it clear that we will not have any maps and encourage player made maps to share among the community yourselves if you like, if not, that is fine too.
Please be mindful to read the Original Post (OP) of every thread, taking note of the date it was posted before continuing on with the discussion as things can dramatically change over the years or already have answers, like in this case. :)
I like the current plan in place.
edit - also, in before lock.
Thankfully cartography has never been ruled out. My understanding is that it could be considered in the future, but it depends on funding and feedback during testing. I don't really have a dog in this fight but I am definitely intrigued by a fleshed out cartography system. It would take a lot of work to make it feel right but I can appreciate the idea that it could be beneficial. We'll see ... eventually.
Crazzie said:Maps maybe not as important in the beginning but it all changes later on when you have 0 newbie players coming, and when you recruit a newer person and they dont know how to get around yet, you use maps.
So what do you say? your no good at the game, we wont recruit you come back when you know more of the zones. Yet they have no way to get to the so called "End Game" lvl that others play at now.
Maps are just that a tool that you will be able to download later on, somewhere on the net.
That's where community fills in and helps (in theory). Plenty of times when starting in a new zone/dungeon in early EQ players had no idea what camps were what or where anything was at all. You'd find a group and if you didn't know where a camp was someone would, more often than not, run out to fetch you. If you felt especially daring you could pull up a map on a website and try to get an invis from someone hanging out near the zone and make your own way there.
Otherwise alt+tab to a player map, using a second monitor to keep a map up, or using your phone to have a map open really isn't at all difficult or time consuming. Sure it is more time consuming than pressing a key and having a map pop up instantly but it's also more like stopping and pulling a map out of your bags.
If they had cartography as a skill in the game where players had to meticulously craft maps and in order to use said maps you had to both take up inventory space and have a "cast time" where you watch your character rustle through their bag and unfold the map before it shows up (meaning you can't move while using the map) then sure bring it on. But I suspect that would be too hardcore for most and considered an unnecessary waste of time when players can just instantly pull up a map online...
The way people made maps in EQ was actually really cool, and, imo, superior to having the game draw them for you. People would move around the zone taking locs and drawing their path like we did with graphing paper in MUDs, and then intelligently sized and scaled those drawings based on the locations. There should be no cartography system that simply unveils the fog on the map on spaces you've traveled. That's not how map making works. That inside and OUTSIDE the game map making is more like real map making than simply having the game draw where you've been, which, again, violates the rule of never having the game tell you where you are.
Krixus said:One of the single most rewarding things in a game like this is learning the areas. If you want to argue there should be a cartography system, fine, I disagree but whatever, you should NEVER be able to see the actual representation of where you are or where any MOB/PC/NPC is on a map. That is not mapping, that is GPS with location sharing. It's a fake, weak mechanic for people who want their hands held so they don't actually have to learn the game. Why display on a minimap what you can see with your eyes when you can SEE IT WITH YOUR EYES? Oh, beacuse what you're suggesting is actuall a kind of GPS/RADAR around your character displaying the actual locations of things. *vomit*
The problem is that the GPS exists and is by far more powerful than any type of map or mini-map, it's /loc .
Basically : /loc = mini-map + map + compass + complete atlas of the world.
Khendall said:Krixus said:One of the single most rewarding things in a game like this is learning the areas. If you want to argue there should be a cartography system, fine, I disagree but whatever, you should NEVER be able to see the actual representation of where you are or where any MOB/PC/NPC is on a map. That is not mapping, that is GPS with location sharing. It's a fake, weak mechanic for people who want their hands held so they don't actually have to learn the game. Why display on a minimap what you can see with your eyes when you can SEE IT WITH YOUR EYES? Oh, beacuse what you're suggesting is actuall a kind of GPS/RADAR around your character displaying the actual locations of things. *vomit*
The problem is that the GPS exists and is by far more powerful than any type of map or mini-map, it's /loc .
Basically : /loc = mini-map + map + compass + complete atlas of the world.
That's a bit excessive, because /loc is harder to use for most people, and even if some can translate it quickly into compass, etc.. It's really a specific understanding I don't think the common gamer has access. Myself I was really good into translating /loc coordinates into vectors and direction back when I played Eq classic, but I can now lose myself into Gfaydark in P99 because all that logic faded away with time passing.
Khendall said:Krixus said:One of the single most rewarding things in a game like this is learning the areas. If you want to argue there should be a cartography system, fine, I disagree but whatever, you should NEVER be able to see the actual representation of where you are or where any MOB/PC/NPC is on a map. That is not mapping, that is GPS with location sharing. It's a fake, weak mechanic for people who want their hands held so they don't actually have to learn the game. Why display on a minimap what you can see with your eyes when you can SEE IT WITH YOUR EYES? Oh, beacuse what you're suggesting is actuall a kind of GPS/RADAR around your character displaying the actual locations of things. *vomit*
The problem is that the GPS exists and is by far more powerful than any type of map or mini-map, it's /loc .
Basically : /loc = mini-map + map + compass + complete atlas of the world.
I don't like loc either. However, they make it less impactful than GPS(which I've also used to describe /loc) by making each zone not have the same range of coordinates. 0,0 isn't in the same place in each zone, and in fact 0,0 may not even EXIST in some zones. Zoning from -7000, 0 headed due west doesn't take you to -7001, 0 in the next zone.
I don't like loc. I completely disagree that it's worse than a mini-map that shows you visually exactly where you are.
This map debate is a bit silly.
There will be a full set of maps available at one or more external site the day the game releases. These maps will be complete with every important piece of info any player will ever need.
If folks want maps, they will be able to get them. Not including them in the game does absolutely nothing to make the game harder.
Kilsin is right though, forcing maps to be created outside the game will foster more community collaboration, which is probably a good thing. Not having the ability to ignore the world while piloting your toon with the map screen open is probably a good thing. Not having a magical trail leading you directly to the group of 12 orcs you need to kill is probably a good thing.