Zain60 said:Kilsin,
I echo the thoughts of my fellow players who believe at best with limited mapping. I truly think a cartography system would be awesome flavor to the game, but if we did, I'd want it to be a mini-game. Cartography skills, tools (crafted, found, even raided?) making it a true craft skill to focus on, selling and trading maps of specific dungeon floors, etc to avoid getting lost in the underwater dungeon. The danger of a Cartography skill akin to Swimming, accessible to all means it's just an artificial barrier removed once I travel somewhere the first time, or level high enough to map the valley and never worry about it again. If the design goal is that of paying attention to landmarks in overland travel and listening out in the world for Perception cues, players should not be in mini-maps.
I do think, the community will fix this. There will be online maps. People will do what we did before there were true, precise in-game maps and create their own. And, if you design some sub-system or craft based on it, (with increasing quality, ability to put notes, increasing ingredients/ink/colors) with some perishability to it, people might decide to purchase an updated map of Amberfaet for tonight's group dungeon crawl, or decide they don't need it, and just explore. It should be noted, Cartography probably isn't cheap. It isn't just drawing and takes real skill. Where one map might show that alcove you can duck the wind, another is just a vague hallway because it's an unskilled person. Dark Myr could perhaps also have maps that survive underwater, and maps in general attune to acclimation. Heat could damage mundane maps over time, requiring you to buy new ones if you continue going to the same places.
R/
Zain
I really like the explanation you have provided for cartography. I think it has enough potential to be considered a major feature in the future. Hopefully we'll get to a point where something like this is feasible. It's a new angle for a crafting profession that hasn't really been seen in any game that I have ever played. The best part ... of course, is that it would be really FUN to make these maps. It adds exploration into the mix rather than sitting in the same area and skilling up.
Kilsin said:Folks, just a reminder that this was one of my CM questions from back on December 7, 2015, since then, we have made it clear that we will not have any maps and encourage player made maps to share among the community yourselves if you like, if not, that is fine too.
Please be mindful to read the Original Post (OP) of every thread, taking note of the date it was posted before continuing on with the discussion as things can dramatically change over the years or already have answers, like in this case. :)
Ahh, maybe I spoke too soon. To be clear then, are maps on the table as something that will be considered in the future, if the resources are available? Just trying to understand ... on May 1'st you said:
"If we can get something like that in and have the resources available we will consider it my friend, but for now we are focussing on the core systems, mechanics and features to get us into testing, this would be good to get feedback on from testers when you guys can get in-game :)"
But now it appears as if it's been settled that we definitely will not have maps except for player created maps. I'm assuming this means external maps, not those crafted with cartography in game? Clarification would be appreciated.
Zybane said:Liav said:Fog of war is pointless because it is defeated extremely quickly. There's no way the game world goes unexplored for more than a week, maybe a month tops.
I agree, the "fog of war" that gets unveiled as you move through an area doesn't really have a purpose. People will just run through the area once with not a care in the world for their surroundings just to unveil the map fog. Once that one pass happens, you are back to not caring what/where locations are.
I dont agree or I wouldnt have said what I said. I dont just run thru zones to unmap them and I know plenty of ppl who dont. They play the game to enjoy it, not to rush to uncover every square inch of every zone the second you get into a zone. You may enjoy doing that and like Liav, just assume, everybody else is the same. As I said there are plenty of ways to prevent doing what you both just said and that is having areas you just cant get to. Also having areas across water you cant get across. Walls that are across a zone with no way to get over them except as part of a quest or some such. Mountains, etc. I agree that eventually fog of war DOES go away as you explore AND play the game but its not knowing and actually being a part of the game that makes it more fun. I think thats where ppl lose sight of why alot of ppl even play. They like to be immersed. If you were to put everything on a map it completely takes away that immersion. I know exactly where everything is without having to explore a single foot of the zone which isnt fun to me.
As to others that like cartography I like it as a way to put maps of sorts in the game based on a skill. So until your skill gets up enuf to make a coherent map the zone would be blank except for what you could actually see. As your skill rose you would fill it in thru gameplay like running thru the zone. Its just another way of putting fog of war into the game but base it on a skill but would take alot longer to actually do since you have to get the skill up which could take time. Some ppl think the element issues are just another way of keying. Well cartography in effect is another way to do the same for maps. At least thats how I see it.
I know Kilsin has already posted about it but wanted to answer the 2 posts that mentioned the fog of war as being "pointless". Obviously for me, its not.
oneADseven said:Kilsin said:Folks, just a reminder that this was one of my CM questions from back on December 7, 2015, since then, we have made it clear that we will not have any maps and encourage player made maps to share among the community yourselves if you like, if not, that is fine too.
Please be mindful to read the Original Post (OP) of every thread, taking note of the date it was posted before continuing on with the discussion as things can dramatically change over the years or already have answers, like in this case. :)Ahh, maybe I spoke too soon. To be clear then, are maps on the table as something that will be considered in the future, if the resources are available? Just trying to understand ... on May 1'st you said:
"If we can get something like that in and have the resources available we will consider it my friend, but for now we are focussing on the core systems, mechanics and features to get us into testing, this would be good to get feedback on from testers when you guys can get in-game :)"
But now it appears as if it's been settled that we definitely will not have maps except for player created maps. I'm assuming this means external maps, not those crafted with cartography in game? Clarification would be appreciated.
There was never any doubt man, we have said from the start that we will not have maps. We won't have maps in the sense that you press the letter M and a big map pops up showing you where you are, surrounding locations and markers and a glowing trail to lead you to the marked destination. We will have an Atlas showing the world but more on that later.
Anything like cartography or player made maps would be minimalistic if implemented at all but that is not something I can talk about just yet, what I can say is external player maps are encouraged, as it brings the community together when working on projects like this and that is something we like to see and being external, people can pick and choose whether they interact with them or not, without it being forced onto them, something we also like.
Kilsin said:Folks, just a reminder that this was one of my CM questions from back on December 7, 2015, since then, we have made it clear that we will not have any maps and encourage player made maps to share among the community yourselves if you like, if not, that is fine too.
Please be mindful to read the Original Post (OP) of every thread, taking note of the date it was posted before continuing on with the discussion as things can dramatically change over the years or already have answers, like in this case. :)
Oh, I hadn't realized that no maps was already decided. Awesome! Maybe add it to the FAQ? I know that is an important topic for many.
Kilsin said:oneADseven said:Kilsin said:
SNIP
SNIP
There was never any doubt man, we have said from the start that we will not have maps. We won't have maps in the sense that you press the letter M and a big map pops up showing you where you are, surrounding locations and markers and a glowing trail to lead you to the marked destination. We will have an Atlas showing the world but more on that later.Anything like cartography or player made maps would be minimalistic if implemented at all but that is not something I can talk about just yet, what I can say is external player maps are encouraged, as it brings the community together when working on projects like this and that is something we like to see and being external, people can pick and choose whether they interact with them or not, without it being forced onto them, something we also like.
I can see a ton of potential in a minimalistic cartography feature and think it would be awesome if players could truly "craft" maps. I understand this might not happen and it will be awhile before any of this could even be considered, but I think external maps could serve as an excellent resource for crafters to try and build their maps around in-game if that ever ended up becoming possible. If maps were player crafted, players would still have the option to acquire/use them. It would be a fun way to allow external efforts/resources to be blended into the game as a tangible custom-made asset. No downloads, programs or anything like that ... just instructional guides on how to actually craft a good in-game map by utilizing whatever functionality is available. What if players could literally draw maps? Ink and parchment could both be valuable resources. As a cartographer becomes more skilled, they could use new "techniques" that allow them to create more sophisticated maps. This could include different colors, shades, shapes, curves, icons, written verbiage, etc.
I don't want to come off as someone who is "pro-map" necessarily ... I was never a fan of glowing trails, GPS, or markers. Maps shouldn't be something that just pops up when you press M. You shouldn't be able to purchase them from vendors. The only way to get them would be from interacting with players who know how to put them together. Each map would have it's own value if they are truly hand-drawn as each map has the potential of being unique. Player made maps created outside of the game could even be designed based around the "system" in game. It would be really dynamic ... and interactive. I have no idea how much of a coding nightmare something like this would be. Anyway ... it's not a huge deal. I'm fine playing the game with just an atlas but if cartography could end up being a profession that allows the community to work on projects together, both internally and externally, and even together ... it sounds like something that could be a lot of fun. Whether or not it's possible ... who knows. Just be careful who you buy your map from ... especially on a PVP server. Instead of a hidden restorative fountain you might walk into a trap ... or player ambush! Damn those Skar!
No Maps. I cannot adequately describe the sense of adventure, danger and thrill of exploring the world without the aid of modern technology. Exploring in the true sense of the word... going where you have never gone before and accepting the risk, danger, and excitement that comes from not knowing what is beyond that yonder bend.
It has the added effect of making the game world seem bigger. When I was a young Dark Elf, Nektulos seemed huge, simply because every step was an unknown.
I prefer no maps as well. If people want to make them and post them online for others to print out, fine. This allows potentially "incomplete" or "incorrect" information to be put out there which still allows for a sense of discovery by the players. And at times gives me something to research outside of the game when I am not at my computer! :)
I know Kilsin said no in game maps. So no maps, I get it. I love to explore a zone fully. I love to find things for the first time myself. I would love a cartography skill, as described by many. But, I will look for maps made outside the game. It will take away from time I would rather spend in game. i used Eqatlas while it lasted. I don't see how a site like that adds to the community, whereas selling, or trading player made maps, in game would. I hope this post is not out-of-line.
Well it seems like there is potential for a cartography system but it will be awhile before it can be seriously considered for implementation. If something like this would be of interest to you, speak up on it! I don't really need to play the game to see the potential in a cartography trade profession. It has been talked about for quite some time on this forum so the interest level is definitely there ... but could it be pulled off in an MMO? I have never played a game that offered something like a cartography system so I can't really say for sure. What I do know, though, is that it could be fun to make them.
Cartography would be a tradeskill tied into adventuring ... I suppose if they were made on external sites then folks could make them without having to explore themselves, but I would be okay with that. It would be cool seeing the community pull together to work on them ... as well as form a consensus on which ones are most accurate or useful. I was never a fan of playing the game and alt tabbing through info sites. If we could create maps and actually trade them in game, I would imagine they could fetch a pretty penny ... especially if they have points of interest, traps, named boss locations, etc.
It wouldn't be immersion breaking at all for me ... using maps is adventuring 101 as far as I am concerned. Serious adventurers use all tools at their disposal and a good old fashioned map and compass are about as basic a resource that any adventurer could ever ask for. They will exist one way or another ... the question is whether or not they will exist in game. Only time will tell ... in the meantime, has anybody played a game where map making was a thing?
People will always make maps available offline (when they aren't available in the game). It's inevitable. I used them in EQ1. I printed them out and kept them in a binder, with my own personal notes on the pages indicating what I had found, places to be careful in, etc. If I were a true explorer in a world such as Pantheon, I definitely would make my own maps of places I've been, along with things I came across. That doesn't mean we have to have that available in game, imho. I remember back when EQ1 was young the thrill of exploring an area and not knowing what was around the copse of trees off in the distance, or what I might find in that darkened cave at the foot of a mountain. Would my expereince later on have been more rewarding if I'd skipped downloading maps of zones so that I could have a "heads up" beforehand? I like to think so and, this time around, I will try exceptionally hard to not use them. Glad to hear there are no immediate plans for in game maps.
I would prefer maps that fill in as you progress but not in whole blocks. It would be cool to have a map fill in in small increments just as you would learn an area in RL. Basically what you can visually see. And then be allowed to add nodes where you can mark personal points of interest. Cities would fill in as you explore the streets and shop names and other points of interest in the city would fill in as you enter them.
Dhampir said:Hey Kilsin - when are we getting the updated Atlas? I know the one on the website is severely outdated as there -are- 3 continents, no?
Hopefully soon my friend, the devs are aware and talking about it so when they get a chance they will update it but it isn't a priority at the moment while we work hard to get the game ready for pre-alpha testing. :)
I have a question , is there a chance for the functionality of the use of maps ? Ie Brewells maps for eq1? This allows us to press M even though no maps are provided , allows the community to "use" player generated maps. I think this might bridge a gap between the two point of views.
You can always open your map in EQ regardless of if you have maps installed or not. The difference is that the associated text file with coordinates for the zone isn't there, or it's empty, so no map is displayed. If we have the ability to press M and open a map, then by extension we have the ability to have maps in the game like Brewall.
Just reminiscing... I remember buying the EQ Atlas that came with the gold metal box for Planes of Power expansion. The art, the information, the feel of flipping through a real book of maps. I would make notes on the pages for the loc of particular mobs or NPCs. It was a tool that added to the game. But once EQ came out with the mapping program in LoY, poof! Another really cool involving aspect gone. Now I just hit TAB to see where I wanted to go. So yeah, I'm glad there's no maps. *Raises a toast* Here's to wall-running to the next zone!
What was so involved in flipping through a book ? Or click click click on a different webpage on a seperate monitor ? The point im making , it does nothing but diminish the real game , going to a third party site . I understand that if the dev's do not want to provide maps , great but the functionality being added for either A. future maps if added by the devs or B. Player fan site made maps .. this suggestion takes little to implement and bridges both gaps. If you do not want maps , simple do not download them.
Xxar said:What was so involved in flipping through a book ? Or click click click on a different webpage on a seperate monitor ? The point im making , it does nothing but diminish the real game , going to a third party site . I understand that if the dev's do not want to provide maps , great but the functionality being added for either A. future maps if added by the devs or B. Player fan site made maps .. this suggestion takes little to implement and bridges both gaps. If you do not want maps , simple do not download them.
By that same logic, why does it have to be done in game? People keep saying "well the internet will just have maps in a few days anyway". Exactly. So use those, or don't.