Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Maps of various kinds

    • 3 posts
    December 7, 2015 3:39 PM PST

    I would like to see the sale of low level/ startzone maps for sale from npcs, and higher level zones perhaps drop from humanoid npcs or quests and work much how real maps do. (You dont have a red dot showing where you are, you would have to use landmarks as reference points etc.) 

    It could also be partial maps, or inroduced as a craft.

    • 753 posts
    December 7, 2015 3:50 PM PST

    A while back I was playing on the P '99 server, and I got a friend of mine to try it out.  He asked what key brought up the map.  I told him there was no map.  He said "HOW DO YOU FIND ANYTHING?"

    And so I began showing him how I "found things" back in the day.  I explained to him to look aruond and find a landmark... that landmark was his first anchor in the zone.  Don't go anywhere you can't see it, until you recognize everything from where you can see it.  Then pick a new landmark within view of the first one.  That would be your second anchor.  So on and so forth.

    The end result of that?  I can still log into EQ zones I hunted back in the day and know right where I am just from what I see...  I had learned the zones to that extent.

    • 163 posts
    December 7, 2015 4:42 PM PST
    I suppose my stance could change depending on the size of the zones that they go with, keeping in mind that open world will be different than the traditional EverQuest zone. Seeing their current work, we're looking at much more natural and involved landscapes than an EverQuest terrain. Once you start hitting a 4k+ terrain in Unity, that's really quite large to keep track of.
    • 9115 posts
    December 7, 2015 5:13 PM PST

    Liav said:

    Kilsin said:

    Liav said:

    If maps aren't included with the game, they'll be made by a third party and be available online anyway within a few months. Trying to restrict information from players in 2015 is a fruitless endeavor.

    The "community strengthening" aspect of wikis and map creation is something I have not personally ever witnessed.

    This is very true and we are not having a minimap in Pantheon, so I know community members will map area's (and the entire game) themselves but they will have to travel and work together to do it, so it does bring people together in a community sense, working towards a greater goal of sharing navigation information and I think that is pretty cool.

    Tough to say. in EQ, for instance, MapFiend was basically just a website that 99% of players would visit every time an expansion came out, download and extract the maps, and it's done. If there's going to be custom UIs then it seems pretty impossible to prevent someone from making a UI piece that displays maps, although likely without a character location overlay. This is assuming there isn't a very restricted API with which to make custom interface pieces.

    The map making/wiki communities in games always seem to be a really, really tiny fraction of the playerbase that the 99% disregards until they need the information.

    Item databases are another recurring source of annoyance and I genuinely wish that game studios would start releasing full item databases that are completely sortable with a variety of criteria, instead of having the community work to make one and then having it become archaic a few years later when a patch retroactively alters stats or something.

    I don't know. The anti-map rhetoric that I hear a lot falls very short of convincing me. Vanguard had maps and it didn't detract from the experience at all. Dark Age of Camelot had maps since release iirc, in 2001, and it never detracted from the experience.

    A lot of those people who map the game and run database website are just very passionate members who like doing that sort of thing and who don't mind sharing the information, I know a lot of data/analytical/programmers/coders/community members who really enjoy logging information whether it be combat logs/parses, mapping or item databases so while it may be a smaller portion compared to the general population, it still brings community members together and adds to the overall community spirit.

    I agree that VGs minimap and world map did not take away from the game, I enjoyed having them and even used the awesome work of Soresha with her InfoMapAdvanced which was one of the best add-ons around, plus I used a multitude of custom UIs from passionate community members, so I can see both sides of the argument.

    Xanadu had an impressive item/data site and I know they put in a ton of work to keep it updated for so many years, there were several others too like The Telon Project which I know all asked for item/data logs and information, but I am not sure the reason as to why they were not given. I am sure if it is something we can do without taking away from the community or ruining gameplay, we will look into it.

    • 2138 posts
    December 7, 2015 6:53 PM PST

    I prefer no maps. But I like the idea of cartography skill allowing vague detials. Like a blob that I label a "ruin"  with like S-SE notes only that would give me the directi that if I headed south-south east from when i zoned in, I should hit that ruin. or at least be close. But I also like things like Muse did, with her maps like the Kelethin map posted above. Just felt right .

     

    I agree with Wandidar. I was disoriented until I found the clock tower in Qeynos. But I think like quasi-detailed maps of newbie cities included with the game is good, as it provides as reference point for the adventurer. 


    This post was edited by Manouk at December 7, 2015 6:56 PM PST
    • 288 posts
    December 7, 2015 9:15 PM PST

    I'm against minimaps, and against main maps.  This does however come with a concession... if a main map must be had, it is O.K. if it shows me what zone im in, but it must not show me my current position within that zone, only maybe the zone connections in a very basic format.

     

    This is truly an area where less is more, the less information you can give the players the more they will need to learn the land for themselves.  I guarantee there will be maps online, but there's one thing those maps can't do, they can't show you where you are in that zone, you still need to learn the landmarks and figure things out for yourself.

    • 1714 posts
    December 7, 2015 9:25 PM PST

    Maps outside the game please. 

    • 1434 posts
    December 8, 2015 3:47 AM PST

    No map is my choice unless we get a legit cartography tradeskill. We've talked about this a few times over the last year or so (on both forums and blogs) and I'm convinced a really cool system could be devised to reward players who are willing to actually map out zones using in game tools. The most important things about maps and mapping is that you should never see your location on the map, and a player who creates maps should not be able to crank them out en masse (ie, no copies or very limited copies, otherwise 1 person could create enough maps for everyone on a server).

    With my suggested mapping system a player starts with a blank sheet and as they travel around using their mapping ability, a small area around them becomes drawn in. The higher the cartography skill, the larger the radius around the player that is drawn in, and the more detail the map has (this could include things like elevation, more landmarks, and even a grid for coordinate systems). You should only be able to create a single map fragment at a time, and just like higher level mobs give you more experience, higher level zones would do the same for a cartographer (no remapping a newbie area up to max skill). Each area (zone) could then be bound together with other fragments to create your map.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at December 8, 2015 4:01 AM PST
    • 46 posts
    December 8, 2015 6:51 AM PST

    I just like a Blank map that fills itself in when you explore the bit you are in, just the bit you are in or can sort of see, not that the whole region opens up just cos you put one foot in it.

    Cheers

    Tru

    x

    • 116 posts
    December 8, 2015 7:00 AM PST

    Wandidar said:

    The end result of that?  I can still log into EQ zones I hunted back in the day and know right where I am just from what I see...  I had learned the zones to that extent.

    EQ2 had in-game maps and I am 100% certain I could navigate any pre Altar of Malice zone on landmarks alone.  Maps are a supplement to navigation, not a replacement.  Otherwise it would be called...MapQuest, heh.  

    I admit though I do find a certain charm in the idea of having to be your own cartographer.  I am notorious for keeping spreadsheets and other notes about loot tables and things in game, maps would just give me another avenue to appease my OCD.

    • 671 posts
    December 8, 2015 8:52 AM PST

    No in-game maps.

     

    I don't care if there is a world map, or a cloth map, but no in-game positioning other than /loc

     

     

     

    • 184 posts
    December 8, 2015 9:31 AM PST

    I like the idea that Dullanhan has with making Cartography Maps, but I would like to break it down further. First not only should this be a tradeskill, but it should require other tradeskills in order to complete it. As an example: if I wanted to start a cartography map I should have to purchase the bare basic’s materials in order to start and increase my expertise with map making, such as inks, quills, different paper materials…etc…  Because these are vendor bought materials my maps should look very poor quality with only allowing me to add the basics of landmarks, and as my skill grows and I tradeskill better paper and quills I should be able to make highly detailed maps.

    I don’t want to open the Cartography skill and then press a begin button and start running around as it fills in my map; I want us the players to be able to draw and add labels and landmarks in order for the map to be designed. If I decided I want to sell or trade this map I should be able to do so, but I would be required to create a new map if I want to use it again. I shouldn’t be allowed to make copies from a master copy and then sell those; I would think a player could have multiple maps on him at any given time and if he decides to sell one of his maps for a particular zone/area then he loses that map permanently unless he makes another one.

    I think the ability to tradeskill mapping material adds to the fun factor for those who enjoy doing this; I would like to see the ability to skin animals that I kill or killed by others so that I can harvest their skin to make unique looking maps and perhaps add better enhancements to the map. For instance if I skin an alligator and obtain a high quality skin I should have the chance to use it as the paper stock of my map, but since this came from an alligator I can safely open this map in underwater zones since its water proof. Or, if I skin and loot a porcupine and find a high quality quill but also since I skinned it I end up with a prickly skin that perhaps damages me a little each time I open it to view the map. This would encourage me to find better materials to prevent this from happening in the future. I can see all types of maps that use materials to enhance this trade skill.

    Rint

    • 79 posts
    December 8, 2015 9:55 AM PST

    Posted my reply on Facebook, but may as well throw it down here, too.

     

    I'd like to see maps with major features, such as cities and main travel routes, in place - because, like the real world, they'd be well known. Outside of that the rest is revealed via fog of war effect. As you explore the map fills in.

     

    Cartography is nice and all, but all that will happen with that is people will just find it online and never use or buy products from that skill, other than for immesion/roleplay reasons.

    • 46 posts
    December 8, 2015 9:56 AM PST

    I think a big gap is between an old school map vs. an interactive mini map that shows your location. It's realistic (the fallacy of discussing realism in a fantasy video game aside) to think adventurers going out into the world would take along maps with them. It's unrealistic to think they all have GPS units in their backpacks pinpointing their exact position on the map. There's something fun to the player skill of looking at a map and then looking around - 'oh, there's that mountain over there and there's a river to the west...ok I need to go northwest until I hit the river, and then if I follow that, I'll get to town.' 

    One thing that I completely agree with though is that modern maps in MMOs wreck the community. You pop open the map, auto-run in the direction you want to go, and don't pay any attention to other players or your surroundings. I remember vividly my first time in Dreadlands at the wizard spire getting lost and needing to ask directions from another player. They ended up guiding me all the way to town and we became good friends, ultimately with me joining their guild. Those are the experiences that build community bonds in a game which are lost with mini maps. 

    • 671 posts
    December 8, 2015 10:10 AM PST

    Rint said:

    I like the idea that Dullanhan has with making Cartography Maps, but I would like to break it down further. First not only should this be a tradeskill, but it should require other tradeskills in order to complete it. As an example: if I wanted to start a cartography map I should have to purchase the bare basic’s materials in order to start and increase my expertise with map making, such as inks, quills, different paper materials…etc…  Because these are vendor bought materials my maps should look very poor quality with only allowing me to add the basics of landmarks, and as my skill grows and I tradeskill better paper and quills I should be able to make highly detailed maps.

    I don’t want to open the Cartography skill and then press a begin button and start running around as it fills in my map; I want us the players to be able to draw and add labels and landmarks in order for the map to be designed. If I decided I want to sell or trade this map I should be able to do so, but I would be required to create a new map if I want to use it again. I shouldn’t be allowed to make copies from a master copy and then sell those; I would think a player could have multiple maps on him at any given time and if he decides to sell one of his maps for a particular zone/area then he loses that map permanently unless he makes another one.

    I think the ability to tradeskill mapping material adds to the fun factor for those who enjoy doing this; I would like to see the ability to skin animals that I kill or killed by others so that I can harvest their skin to make unique looking maps and perhaps add better enhancements to the map. For instance if I skin an alligator and obtain a high quality skin I should have the chance to use it as the paper stock of my map, but since this came from an alligator I can safely open this map in underwater zones since its water proof. Or, if I skin and loot a porcupine and find a high quality quill but also since I skinned it I end up with a prickly skin that perhaps damages me a little each time I open it to view the map. This would encourage me to find better materials to prevent this from happening in the future. I can see all types of maps that use materials to enhance this trade skill.

    Rint

     

    Great Post and along the lines of how I would like to see Pantheon be flushed out. Even something as a vendor bought quill vs a crafted quil... the vendor bought one is thick and like using a fat children's marker, while a high-end quill may draw fine lines like a .07 fountain pen..

     

    And again... no in-game mini-map, evAr..  nothing that actually shows your location within the game. I am ok with Player made maps, but nothing that is attached to your character, or that shows the position of your character in game.

     

     


    This post was edited by Hieromonk at December 8, 2015 10:21 AM PST
    • 384 posts
    December 8, 2015 10:14 AM PST

    I prefer no maps but I'd be ok with player crafted in-game maps, or just a very basic map we can annotate. No radar or gps though. 

     And the argument I see people use, "Just because it's in there doesn't mean you have to use it." (and this is really, really not directed at anyone in particular, I just see it indifferent places when it comes to providing additional in-game info like maps or items or mob stats etc.) That never works cause other people you might play with will use those resources and if you happen to be grouped with them they will either tell you about stuff or lead you around...

     So anyway, less info is more. Give the players the opportunity to learn things on thier own. We can, I promise.

     

    This post was edited by Malsirian at December 8, 2015 10:14 AM PST
    • 184 posts
    December 8, 2015 11:47 AM PST

    Canno said:

    Cartography is nice and all, but all that will happen with that is people will just find it online and never use or buy products from that skill, other than for immesion/roleplay reasons.

     

    Hi Canno -

    Most map making tools outside of the game rely on the logging feature of the game. A player will enable logging so it creates a log file for him to analyze and then he will have it capture /loc or some other variant command that his mapping tool can use to create a map, but if the Pantheon developers removed the /loc option from logging it would severely hinder or stop completely the ability to make maps with 3rd party tools (at least short term...) and it would require most people to utilize in-game maps made through Cartography.

    With that said, I’m a community first kind of player and I honestly hope that 3rd party maps are available from Pantheon Fan Sites because it just increase the community reach and quite honestly gives people things to do. When EQAtlas was the only place to go for maps I would often download the map I needed and then add additional information to it to increase the accuracy, and then I would repost it for others to use in my guild or random forums.

     

    Rint


    This post was edited by Rint at December 8, 2015 3:11 PM PST
    • 999 posts
    December 8, 2015 1:31 PM PST

    +1 No-in Game Maps.

    However, if there was a compromise, I would want an in-depth cartography system as discussed in previous threads, and/or the suggestions that I've made previously on mobs dropping rudimentary maps that are lore/language based.  You have to learn their language and understand their landmarks "Orc Hill" in order to understand the map.  And, I'd want the map to be right clickable/etc. where it expands across the screen with no GPS markers.  Have some risk to looking at the map versus having a "mini-map" type map that could always be loaded.

    @Liav

    It's pretty simple of why no in-game maps is better, whether you agree or not is subjective.  In any profession where you have to learn territory, you learn it better without the use of GPS/maps in real life.  It's the whole idea that the best way to learn a new area is to "get lost" and find your way.  If you rely solely on the GPS, you become oblivious to your surroundings and reliant on the GPS.  There are a few outliers that would pay attention to where they're going, but the majority don't.  It's much like talking on the cell-phone while driving.  You may still be able to react, but your mind wanders and you're much less aware of your surroundings.  Relate that to Pantheon's terms - In-Game Map equals GPS (especially with a marker on the map).

    Now, again it's arguable whether you feel that's a positive, but, in a game like Pantheon which I hope is immersive and it makes you learn the territory/surroundings, etc., having an in-game map system is completely contradictory to the goal.  And, /togglemapoff isn't an option just like designing a game for soloing and grouping to 50 with equal rewards isn't an option - people will take the path of least resistance.

    • 1434 posts
    December 8, 2015 3:32 PM PST

    Lots of good cartography details here. Would be amazing to have one more full blown tradeskill with some depth.

    • 184 posts
    December 8, 2015 5:13 PM PST

    Raidan said:

    However, if there was a compromise, I would want an in-depth cartography system as discussed in previous threads, and/or the suggestions that I've made previously on mobs dropping rudimentary maps that are lore/language based.  You have to learn their language and understand their landmarks "Orc Hill" in order to understand the map.  And, I'd want the map to be right clickable/etc. where it expands across the screen with no GPS markers.  Have some risk to looking at the map versus having a "mini-map" type map that could always be loaded.

     

    I love this idea!! I always thought the Language skill in EQ was wasted because it was never really useful for anything, but I can really see the potential after reading your post. Nice Job!

     

     Rint

    • 44 posts
    December 9, 2015 12:58 AM PST



    Xanadu had an impressive item/data site and I know they put in a ton of work to keep it updated for so many years, there were several others too like The Telon Project which I know all asked for item/data logs and information, but I am not sure the reason as to why they were not given. I am sure if it is something we can do without taking away from the community or ruining gameplay, we will look into it.

     

    You can still check out the EQ2 and Rift Item Databases btw :-)

    • 9115 posts
    December 9, 2015 1:27 AM PST

    Gelax said:



    Xanadu had an impressive item/data site and I know they put in a ton of work to keep it updated for so many years, there were several others too like The Telon Project which I know all asked for item/data logs and information, but I am not sure the reason as to why they were not given. I am sure if it is something we can do without taking away from the community or ruining gameplay, we will look into it.

     

    You can still check out the EQ2 and Rift Item Databases btw :-)

    Nice! :)

    • 116 posts
    December 9, 2015 8:07 AM PST

    I want in-game maps with no GPS/indicators. I would love to be able to pin notes to those maps.

     

    I fail to see why everyone is so against this. It's basicly the same thing everyone seems willing to do outside the game with printed maps. But I want to avoid clutter of having a binder on my desk or having my second monitor high jacked by a mapping site. It would also keep imersion by having my character own the map instead of me, the player.

    • 429 posts
    December 9, 2015 9:13 AM PST

    Indifferent either way ... 

    • 288 posts
    December 9, 2015 9:29 AM PST

    I would also like to note that the /loc system, while incredibly useful, could go a bit further.  Sense heading in Everquest told you which cardinal direction you were facing when it was pressed, provided you had adequately skilled it up.  This could be used in conjunction with the /loc system, so when someone sent you a tell and said hey, I heard there is a named at /loc 1030, -1392, then you could do /locate 1030, -1392 and it would say "Your location appears to be to the Northwest".  Then you could click your sense heading a few times to find northwest, and travel using those 2 methods to find an area.

     

    This doesn't trivialize travel, but allows groups to find each other without constantly spamming loc and trying to decipher which way the numbers are moving.


    This post was edited by Rallyd at December 9, 2015 9:30 AM PST