Hey all, I'm still new and getting caught up on what's been discussed already. I'm wondering what is the design intent when it comes to the HUD and game mechanic conveniences?
Context:
I'm a firm believer that many of the conveniences that have been introduced into mmorpgs have been detrimental to the genre. A prime example is instanced content. Individual instances goes against everything that makes an mmorpg great as it greatly reduces community interaction. I noticed in the FAQ that these will be used in a very limited fashion, which gives me hope here.
Now what about the overall HUD? I would argue that having a mini-map is detrimental, because when traveling, I'm paying more attention to that then the environment. A map that I have to push a button to view, which I should only be doing when it's safe, is fine. But this isn't a flight simulator, the HUD should be as clean and lean as possible so that I can focus on the details of the environment.
Quest indicators/auto-questing? Again, why is it necessary to have this super compass that marks my quest destination? Where is the thought and effort to figure out the quest? Why is an exclamation point on an NPC's head necessary to let me know they have a quest? Quests shouldn't be simply checking the box, they should be a reward for actually interacting with the environment/NPCs even when there's no clear indication to do so.
Figuring out quests was one of my favorite parts about EQ. I actually had to read NPC dialogue and then figure out the keywords that would trigger the next steps. I had to use the clues provided to figure out where to go next or what item I had to obtain next. I had to pay attention to the environment to notice that there was something I needed. Sometimes I had to ask for help in locating NPCs, and this was a good thing because I was interacting with the community.
I think a quest journal can still be a good thing, so I don't have to write every detail down. But it should really only record the summary of my actions or NPC dialogue, so that I can reference it when needed. But please make me work to actually figure out what needs to be done!
I strongly agree when it comes to quests. It would be nice however if your previous actions assisted you in finding what dialogue to say. For instance if you previously helped someone from the NPC's faction maybe a certain word or phrase in what they say to you is a different color. Something a bit more subtle than brackets. I disagree when it comes to the "mini map". I have no problem with a minimap if it is done correctly. It should have a regenerating fog of war and party members should share the same map. What I dislike are static zone maps.
I think you are in the right place Valitor. Based on what I can remember, we will see no indicators over NPCs (you have to talk to them) and there will be no minimap. Not even sure if there will be a map by default, but if there is you aren't likely to have GPS showing you exactly where you are.
I actually read about another indie game that is disabling npc (and player) nameplates until you've spoken to them. If they do not introduce themselves, for whatever reason, you go on unable to see their name. I think that is a really interesting idea.
Something that I would love to see and haven't yet (At least not to my knowledge) is basically an ingame notepad for your quests. If you pickup a quest it would get logged into your quest log, but would have very little information about the quest itself. Then as you progress you can basically make comments (as detailed or undetailed) within the quest log for personal use. Just little tidbits of information.
Original vs. Updated examples
Original Quest Log: *Enter Comments here*
Updated Quest Log: Talked to Aradune (Loc -34,34; 57,35) : made mention of a red dragon scale...? Find more out about this...
I can't tell you how many scraps of paper I had laying around my computer or web browsers open...
Furor said:Something that I would love to see and haven't yet (At least not to my knowledge) is basically an ingame notepad for your quests. If you pickup a quest it would get logged into your quest log, but would have very little information about the quest itself. Then as you progress you can basically make comments (as detailed or undetailed) within the quest log for personal use. Just little tidbits of information.
Original vs. Updated examples
Original Quest Log: *Enter Comments here*
Updated Quest Log: Talked to Aradune (Loc -34,34; 57,35) : made mention of a red dragon scale...? Find more out about this...I can't tell you how many scraps of paper I had lying around my computer or web browsers open...
I like the idea of a type of ingame notepad for the sake of conserving paper although I would personally feel a bit dirty if after talking to "farmer brown" it updated this journal automatically with a quest about collecting apples or whatever. Even after talking through and mentioning the [bracket] words I rather have the discretion of what to journal up to me, and let it be manually entered. Perhaps these are masochistic tendancies but I think it creates a more immersive experience in the end.
Furor said:Something that I would love to see and haven't yet (At least not to my knowledge) is basically an ingame notepad for your quests. If you pickup a quest it would get logged into your quest log, but would have very little information about the quest itself. Then as you progress you can basically make comments (as detailed or undetailed) within the quest log for personal use. Just little tidbits of information.
Original vs. Updated examples
Original Quest Log: *Enter Comments here*
Updated Quest Log: Talked to Aradune (Loc -34,34; 57,35) : made mention of a red dragon scale...? Find more out about this...I can't tell you how many scraps of paper I had lying around my computer or web browsers open..
This! Lots of games have quest logs but I too have never seen one that you can make your own notes in. I have always wanted such a function and it makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't complain about also having some kind of personal log or general purpose notebook where you can just put in anything you need to.
Baulkin said:I strongly agree when it comes to quests. It would be nice however if your previous actions assisted you in finding what dialogue to say. For instance if you previously helped someone from the NPC's faction maybe a certain word or phrase in what they say to you is a different color. Something a bit more subtle than brackets. I disagree when it comes to the "mini map". I have no problem with a minimap if it is done correctly. It should have a regenerating fog of war and party members should share the same map. What I dislike are static zone maps.
IMO it must be clear what words to use to progress in a dialogue. Quests that are hard to find because they require some obscure phrases and you have no idea what these might be, are just bad design IMO. So I hope for dialogue text that highlights words/phrases that you can use. Making the highlighting depend on faction (or other things) is a bad idea however, because that would require you to re-visit every NPC over and over again when you gain faction, for the chance that he might have something to tell you now. Better to mark the word clearly, but if you use it, have him say "I don't trust you enough" if you don't have the faction.
EQ even made these highlighted text pieces clickable. Not much difference IMO if you just enter a word or click on it (let's be honest, who here will enter full sentences when chatting with an NPC?), but maybe this is TOO convenient. :)
On the topic of a quest journal that you can enter your own infos in, I'd love to have that.
Agree on quests, I want to have to talk to NPCs(ala EQ) to find out if they have a quest or not. I don't mind highlighted text, especially as I've gotten older and my eyes aren't as good. ;)
I like in-game quest journals, but I wish that I could choose what goes into them via an "Add to Journal" option, not just every quester I talk to. There are some quests I have no interest in, or they are simple enough I don't feel the need to add them to my journal, adding personal notes would be a huge plus.
In-game maps? Eh, I don't mind them, but they should only fill areas you have explored already, possibly even adding a cartography skill to generate more details on your maps as your skill increases.
Furor said:Something that I would love to see and haven't yet (At least not to my knowledge) is basically an ingame notepad for your quests. If you pickup a quest it would get logged into your quest log, but would have very little information about the quest itself. Then as you progress you can basically make comments (as detailed or undetailed) within the quest log for personal use. Just little tidbits of information.
Great idea. I was one of those 3 ring binder filled with maps and handwritten notes EQ1 players as well. An in game notepad would be awesome. Even make it tradeskilled if needs be, with leather, paper, ink, etc required to be able to make use of it.
I'd love a quest journal that was more ad hoc than scripted.
Sarim said:IMO it must be clear what words to use to progress in a dialogue. Quests that are hard to find because they require some obscure phrases and you have no idea what these might be, are just bad design IMO. So I hope for dialogue text that highlights words/phrases that you can use. Making the highlighting depend on faction (or other things) is a bad idea however, because that would require you to re-visit every NPC over and over again when you gain faction, for the chance that he might have something to tell you now. Better to mark the word clearly, but if you use it, have him say "I don't trust you enough" if you don't have the faction.
EQ even made these highlighted text pieces clickable. Not much difference IMO if you just enter a word or click on it (let's be honest, who here will enter full sentences when chatting with an NPC?), but maybe this is TOO convenient. :)
On the topic of a quest journal that you can enter your own infos in, I'd love to have that.
I have to disagree here regarding the highlighting of key words in quest dialogue. Trigger words don't have to be "obscure", but figuring them out should be part of the challenge of completing a quest. My argument is that by highlighting key words, or taking it a step further and simply having clickable "I accept" or "next", is dumbing things down far too much. Taken to the extreme, as in some of the newer games, you can literally just click buttons without reading a single word and still complete every quest. Even if you make it a point to read all quests at the start, you will eventually start just skimming, that's human nature. The quest content/lore adds no value, so there's no reason to comprehend it since the quest steps are plotted out for you a la paint-by-numbers. This diminishes the overall experience, and actually is a waste of developer time for even writing quest dialogue in the first place.
Single player RPGs are perfect for point-click linear questing, because you're really just playing through a single storyline. When you reach the end, that's it, the game is over. An mmorpg, by design, should be much more dynamic. The point is to create a world that you have to interact with in order to figure out how to interact with it. Situations should often arise where asking for help from others to figure something out is acceptable or even necessary.
The entire concept of highlighting words in quests, and then just clicking through, and then having target indicators to tell you exactly where to go next, all stemmed from a mass of players that didn't have the patience to figure things out for themselves. These became conveniences which only served to allow players to fast-forward/skip through content. That is what I would call bad design.
I agree with ValitorZek. I loved the NPC chatting that EQ did, minus the keywords. You had to talk to NPC's and figured it out, no quest log. An in-game quest log should be a log for the player themselves to keep track of and update. At most, if you talk to correct NPC's the quest log could add an entry indicating you're on the right track with some flavor text. It should not tell you exactly where to go, what to say, etc. That should be up to the players to figure out.
^^ And I disagree with that, sorry :) IMO the fun is figuring out how to do the quest, that is, finding the objective locations, figuring out where to get required items etc. Not HOW to get the quest in the first place. I am totally with you that target indicators are the essence of dumbing down questing, but highlighting text is not. Quests hidden behind obscure text phrases are hard to test (thinking of alpha/beta). How are you supposed to test something you don't even know exists?
Also, I doubt it will take long until the first quest guides appear on the net, and at that point you might just as well highlight the text, because everyone will know the correct words anyway.
Testing is a separate matter and there are solutions there. There should probably be 3 types of testers to consider for quests. The first are given precise details for each quest and must simply test each possibly keyword/step/combination/etc....we'll call these the Technical testers. They just make sure it actually works and are your employed QA people. The second set don't have to be employed, but they are given a list of sources for quests and must figure out the quests. These are the Cognitive testers. They answer the question of whether a quest is feasible, and whether the level of difficulty matches the reward. The third set are your general beta testers that are just playing the game normally and they provide feedback on what quests they've discovered, what the quality was, etc.. These are the Immersion testers. The make sure quests are even discoverable without being told. All quests don't even have to be 'discovered' in beta, as long as their functionality has been tested. Especially if a quest with a high reward is intentionally made challenging.
In response to the point about quest guides, there is great benefit to those. Fan sites are great hubs for the community. For some people, that's their thing. Being a lore master and writing guides. Quest guides are also external from the game, and are therefore only an option for those that want to "cheat". I will stand by my argument that catering to these players by making the internal mechanics of the game more "convenient" for all players is bad design.
Sarim said:^^ And I disagree with that, sorry :) IMO the fun is figuring out how to do the quest, that is, finding the objective locations, figuring out where to get required items etc. Not HOW to get the quest in the first place. I am totally with you that target indicators are the essence of dumbing down questing, but highlighting text is not. Quests hidden behind obscure text phrases are hard to test (thinking of alpha/beta). How are you supposed to test something you don't even know exists?
Also, I doubt it will take long until the first quest guides appear on the net, and at that point you might just as well highlight the text, because everyone will know the correct words anyway.
This pretty much sums up how I feel about it.
The only caveat being epic quests. I would not mind the epic quest lines being driven strictly by player discovery, almost like a mystery or riddle. So, while a normal quest would have highlighted words and phrases, the epic line would be something the community had to solve completely on their own. I think it was epic quests 1.5 in EQ where people were collaborating online for weeks/months trying to figure out how to complete the quests for each class. I was in no position to be a part of it at the time, but I loved watching it and I’ve not seen anything like it since.
Katalyzt said:^^ And I disagree with that, sorry :) IMO the fun is figuring out how to do the quest, that is, finding the objective locations, figuring out where to get required items etc. Not HOW to get the quest in the first place.
Sarim said:This pretty much sums up how I feel about it.
The only caveat being epic quests. I would not mind the epic quest lines being driven strictly by player discovery, almost like a mystery or riddle. So, while a normal quest would have highlighted words and phrases, the epic line would be something the community had to solve completely on their own.
I pretty much [agree] with all of this! (See what I did there? :D)
The quest log should only be populated with a Quest title and maybe who provided you the quest. The rest of the log should be updated manually by the player if they choose.