Forums » The Elves

High Elves=Only elves

    • 2129 posts
    April 5, 2017 7:46 AM PDT

    BeaverBiscuit said:

    Bazgrim said:

    Taledar said:

    If we are playing wood elves, why can they be all the intelligence casters?

    Who's to say Elves can't be intelligent? To say they are actually "wood elves" is an extremely basic, low-level comparison. While it may technically be the most similar, there's still so much more to it than that. It's best to think of them as a new race, rather than just bunching them with the closest thing in EQ. Just as the closest comparison to Pantheon itself may be EQ, there's still so much more to it than just that. Drawing direct connections is very limiting.

    Even in the lore, can you find anything that says elves are intelligent? I see a lot on wisdom, and on their tree, and on their sense of duty and their desire to purge the world of evil...But nothing that comes even close to the gnome lore on just screaming "intelligent" with every line. 

    Elves in other stories can be all the intelligence casters. They are even very wise, have past or present long term battles with forces of pure evil, and love trees. If you look hard you can find many easy comparisons between Pantheon races/classes and those things in other fantasy stories. For example; The similarity between Pantheon Archai and DnD's Genasi.

    The Pantheon Lore guy is fantastic at what he does, but I don't think it's unfair to make comparisons between his work and other works.

    ____

    The best explanation I can give Taledar is one I got on a similar topic about how wise folk like dwarves could get an intelligent caster role like enchanter. In this other post, I argued that a race which isn't insanely intelligent could not realistically be expected to cast spells that are essentially mind control. I learned that:

    1. The individual races might have significant, game play related, differences when it comes to how they play a particular class. Dwarven enchanters might actually have different spells than gnomish enchanters; Dwarven spells might be more based on enchanting inanimate objects, such as metals. Gnomes and other more intelligent races are then left with the actual mind control. 

    This also helps to explain why a race like halflings, who would take using words to turn their enemies, such as laughing wraiths, in stride, didn't get enchanting. Halflings would be interested in enchanting minds. But they are not intelligent, nor arcane inclined, enough to actually accomplish any form of mind control (the only aspect of the Enchanter class they are interested in.)

    Wood elves may use aspects of the "intelligence" based classes in some unique way that pertains to wood elves' strengths/weaknesses. 

    2. Vr's reasoning for adding in things like gnome rogues, archai monks, or dwarven enchanters can be looked into pretty deeply.

    It could be fair to say that VR is more interested in the picture in their minds and that picture's effect on gameplay.

    This IS a game after all. We have features like the holy trinity, despite their lack of realism.

    Thus, even if wood elves aren't realistically intelligent enough for intelligence based spells, VR perceives intelligent wood elves as an interesting and valuable part of their game, so long as you are willing to go outside of the box (like with gnome rogues).

    In this case, my previous example of halfling enchanters could be explained away by VR simply not feeling halfling enchanters are an interesting and useful addition to Pantheon gameplay. 

    Good points Beaver. I would not expect the lore to explicitly say "Elves are also very intelligent." You have to draw some inferences. Without getting into the whole discussion about multiple types of intelligence (See https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4908/dumb-or-not) I think it's safe to say that the elves' skill with architecture requires a good amount of intelligence and study.

    But I think there's another, perhaps even more plausible explanation, from the phrase "arcane prowess as natural as the wind, rain and storm." This could mean that elves are just born with an affinity to magic. They don't need to spend years studying old spell tomes in an academy or whatever. They don't need incredible intelligence because they're just born with a magical gift of some sort.

    I just think it's awful presumptuous to be like:

    1. Being a caster requires a high intelligence stat

    2. Wood elves in EQ did not have a high intelligence stat

    3. Pantheon Elves must not be like wood elves

    4. Therefore, they must be like EQ high elves

    Not everything is so cut and dry. As you said Beaver, VR has the right to create their own world from scratch and factor in different things to their decision. Of course comparisons will be made in attempt to understand it better, but it's still possible and best to try to remain as open minded as possible.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at April 5, 2017 7:46 AM PDT
    • 279 posts
    April 5, 2017 11:14 PM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    Good points Beaver. I would not expect the lore to explicitly say "Elves are also very intelligent." You have to draw some inferences. Without getting into the whole discussion about multiple types of intelligence (See https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4908/dumb-or-not) I think it's safe to say that the elves' skill with architecture requires a good amount of intelligence and study.

    But I think there's another, perhaps even more plausible explanation, from the phrase "arcane prowess as natural as the wind, rain and storm." This could mean that elves are just born with an affinity to magic. They don't need to spend years studying old spell tomes in an academy or whatever. They don't need incredible intelligence because they're just born with a magical gift of some sort.

    I just think it's awful presumptuous to be like:

    1. Being a caster requires a high intelligence stat

    2. Wood elves in EQ did not have a high intelligence stat

    3. Pantheon Elves must not be like wood elves

    4. Therefore, they must be like EQ high elves

    Not everything is so cut and dry. As you said Beaver, VR has the right to create their own world from scratch and factor in different things to their decision. Of course comparisons will be made in attempt to understand it better, but it's still possible and best to try to remain as open minded as possible.

    I believe it is reasonable to assume that casters, such as wizards, will use an intelligence stat. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it's highly unlikely unless VR has secret plans for a no stats system. What else would intelligence be for? What other stat would determine the effectiveness of "cast fireball"?

    I get your point on different types but I feel intelligence and wisdom can be used to cover all forms of intelligence, rather than giving high intelligence to every race, because lets face it, everyone's good at something.

    There once was a study where they gave kids with real high iq two test questions. "how many uses can you think of for a brick?" was one of them. It's baffling how the ultra high iq students given the question could only think of 1 or 2 answers. Normal students of course can come up with plenty more. 

    This illustrates, to me, the two sorts of intelligence. In the box and out of the box. High iq (logical processes) and creativity. Intelligence and wisdom. There are no doubt more detailed subdivisions, but VR probably won't have enough different statistics on their characters to represent them all perfectly. 

    Elves use a form of intelligence found within wisdom to find the creativity for their beautiful architecture. Ogres use a form of intelligence found in wisdom for their battle formations. 

    Thats not to say they have no logical intelligence. They do, and they use it for blueprints and the like, they just dont have a particularly high amount. Races who do tend to have easy inferences for a high intelligence, like gnomes. Check out the gnome lore again, they blow elves out of the water. To me, it makes sense that a race with particularly high intelligence would be the race to get the high intelligence spells. 

    In addition, there's the balance issue. We can, by both prejudice and lore, assume something similar to this idea: Wood elves are almost as good at warriors as human, better at rangers/rogue/woodcraft classes than human, and overall more wise than human. How many stats can VR afford to max out on elves? Should they make every stat amazing because somewhere in the lore you can infer the race is good at it?

    Even by lore and not balance, a race whos real good at everything would be boring.

    Finally, Even if elves are good at arcane stuff, it only supports my first point in my first post. Elves will use their own strengths for their own take on the intelligence casters. Perhaps they will use their arcane proficieny to simply throw mana at their enemies, rather than taking the time to make ultra efficient, complicated, logic oriented spells.

    _______P.S. The way I like to think about it is thus:

    Humans are the base race (they can do everything o.k.). So you need to have a statistic at least almost as high as a human to perform a particular role that requires that stat.

    When a race is particularly more focused at something than a human is, they are more focused at the role and better at it's defining aspects. However, they have an equal malice to balance things out.

    Elves might have more wisdom, dex, and agi than humans, but they may also have less personality, intelligence, constitution, and/or strength.  Hence why it may not initially make as much sense for elves to have the intelligence type casters, when they are theoretically going to be good at so many other, un-related, things. 

    To me, their class list, compared to many other races, is a little imbalanced, particularly considering how they are such hard core wood elves (and will thus get the corresponding stats and racial powers) they don't even merit clerics.  Though I make my voice heard, I will trust VR's judgement.


    This post was edited by BeaverBiscuit at April 5, 2017 11:50 PM PDT
    • 59 posts
    April 23, 2017 5:29 PM PDT

    I like D&D's elves Drow, Grey, High, Painted, Deep and Half-elves pretty cool stuff. Wood elves and dark are pretty cool also.

    • 1521 posts
    April 23, 2017 5:34 PM PDT

    Leowna said:

    I like D&D's elves Drow, Grey, High, Painted, Deep and Half-elves pretty cool stuff. Wood elves and dark are pretty cool also.

    I love elves, especiallly when their skin is crispy and covered in BBQ sauce. Corn starch is the Key. Rub it on the skin before you put them over the flame. 

    Just like momma Ogre used to make.

    • 59 posts
    April 23, 2017 7:02 PM PDT

    animal!

    • 29 posts
    April 29, 2017 12:02 AM PDT

    The Elder Scrolls, more specifically Skyrim, ruined what little love I had for High Elves to begin with. I've always been more of a fan of Wood Elves and Dark Elves.
    Based off of the Elf lore in Pantheon, it sounds like we'll most likely have Wood Elves, seeing as how they live in the woods and worship a giant mountain-sized tree.