Hieromonk said:
Thank you Brad, I understand the direction Visionary Realms is going with world building.I was hoping for more of an open world feel.
More like VG, or ArcheAge. I do like your idea of.. if you can see it, you should be able to reach it.. type comment. I am just hoping that most transition between zones are open world (100% zone'able wall), like in the Karanas.
Instead of funneled to single points, creating linear travel. I completely understand role play choke points, and understand the creative control that needs to take place.
But knowing 100% zone wall travel is possible, imagine how a six by six grid of open zones could make one massive Island... fully engulfed within those side-by-side zones. One massive biosphere to adventure in. I think fully tailored biospheres would have a great role playing and story telling aspect to them. It is how parts of the future world can be given to us.Even a massive (right of passage) quest and now a sailor is dropping you off on a the docks of a small island... You are on a spec of land, near the actual zone wall of a large grid of 6 by 6 zones, w/100% zone line travel. The journey begins there..
I think the Unity zoning system is dynamic and we could have such content I idealized, some day..
edit:
Brad.. given what you know and seeing what inernal limitation exists, of what size can you largest zone be? Could a single modern day 64bit zone... be bigger than 5x Ocean of Tears ..?
The Karana's is a great example -- a lot of our outdoor zones will be like that. The exception will be when we purposely (from a story/content standpoint, not from a technical limitation) want a specific area to be where you zone from one region to another. Sometimes finding that tunnel, or heading up a mountain pass, etc. will make sense. We are pretty much free from EQ's technical limitations here, but flow and zone population layout may call for corridors of content.
I can't say exactly how big an outdoor zone can be in, say, meters or something. But I can say that with the tech we have and the power of even an average modern gaming machine, we can actually make an outdoor zone that is TOO big. One of the outdoor zones we are internally testing right now, Avendyr's Pass, is HUGE. It may turn out to be too big, and we may want to break it up (we purposely made it HUGE as a test so we can start to get a handle on zone size -- I would rather start too big and scale back than vice versa).
Dreconic said:OK, now I want to go fish in a river where the flow is going up a mountain, I want to a dessert, suddenly turn into a forest, and I want a path like in Baarle dividing one city into two different areas!
I want to see lava flows intersecting a glacier. I want to see not only spectacular man-made structures, but spectacular natural structures. Think about, say, the natural wonders of the world. They're wonders because, well, most of the rest of the world is kinda boring, so they really stand out. But with Terminus, these 'wonders', these points of interest, could be created with less of the 'boring' in-between -- concentrated wonder? Could be pretty cool.
Just google'd for 'wonders of the world' and got this list:
I see Louis Armstrong!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2VCwBzGdPM
oh wait, um, Joppa?
Replying to the guy who posted Morrowind's map as a comparison, not only was that map from a box edition that came out 5 years after the game released, that game was FINISHED. This map is just a piece of the entire world and might even be placeholder(even if it's not, it's still not the entire map and can't be compared until then.)
Also, if Pantheon is anything like EQ, the map is supposed to not have alot of details. Why? So you can explore for your damn self and find those details! Why would they give it all away on their atlas?
Aradune said:
I realize this is different than, say, Middle Earth. I'm a huge Tolkien fan, I assure you, but so many 'fantasy' worlds (in novels, games, etc.) have also been crafted to be 'realistic fantasy' that we decided to take a different approach with Pantheon, similar to our different (non-traditional) approaches to some of the playable races, etc. Too much 'sameness' is something MMOs have been struggling with, IMHO.
One should not confuse "sameness" with "consistency" nor try to oppose "realistic" fantasy to "fantastic" fantasy .
I have already mentionned on these boards a few years ago the Tolkien's essay on "fantasy creation" which is the most brilliant and insightful text about fantasy I know .
This quote should be a must read for every amateur of fantasy creation : "Probably every writer making a secondary world, a fantasy, every sub-creator, wishes in some measure to be a real maker, or hopes that he is drawing on reality: hopes that the peculiar quality of this secondary world (if not all the details) are derived from Reality, or are flowing into it. If he indeed achieves a quality that can fairly be described by the dictionary definition: “inner consistency of reality,” it is difficult to conceive how this can be, if the work does not in some way partake of reality. The peculiar quality of the ”joy” in successful Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden glimpse of the underlying reality or truth. "
What makes a successful fantasy ? Why LotR or Game of Thrones are successful ? It is not because there are dragons, undead, elves and magics because those may be in any fantasy and yet it can be awful . It is because, as Tolkien says, they derive from Reality or are flowing into it . The key is in believability because from believabilty derives immersion and immersion and consistence is what people want in fantasy litterature (or games) .
Pantheon is obviously no exception - it is also inspired from Reality (with an R and not an r) as it must . Gravity pulls things down, the planet is a sphere, it orbits around a sun, there are days and nights, there are seasons, there are mountains and trees, casting the same spell creates the same effect etc etc . So of course Pantheon does NOT take a different approach to Reality because it is impossible for a game - if it really took a different approach the result would be an inconsistent Chaos and the game would be unplayable .
Now what is the worst ennemy of believability ? Contradictions . A contradictory world is unbelievable and doesn't generate any immersion nor this "peculiar joy" Tolkien writes about. For example upwards flowing rivers are a contradiction that everybody percieves intuitively without needing complex analysis . Water has weight (one can drink in Pantheon), gravity pulls things down (otherwise people couldn't walk on Pantheon) so water must flow down and not up (unless there is a mechanical or magical engine making it do so) . More generally in a real or a fantasy world causality always reigns what makes it different from random Chaos .
That's why, imho, putting in Pantheon incorporeal Gnomes or spontaneously upward flowing rivers doesn't make it more "fantasy" it makes it less so .
Deadshade said:Aradune said:
I realize this is different than, say, Middle Earth. I'm a huge Tolkien fan, I assure you, but so many 'fantasy' worlds (in novels, games, etc.) have also been crafted to be 'realistic fantasy' that we decided to take a different approach with Pantheon, similar to our different (non-traditional) approaches to some of the playable races, etc. Too much 'sameness' is something MMOs have been struggling with, IMHO.
One should not confuse "sameness" with "consistency" nor try to oppose "realistic" fantasy to "fantastic" fantasy .
I have already mentionned on these boards a few years ago the Tolkien's essay on "fantasy creation" which is the most brilliant and insightful text about fantasy I know .
This quote should be a must read for every amateur of fantasy creation : "Probably every writer making a secondary world, a fantasy, every sub-creator, wishes in some measure to be a real maker, or hopes that he is drawing on reality: hopes that the peculiar quality of this secondary world (if not all the details) are derived from Reality, or are flowing into it. If he indeed achieves a quality that can fairly be described by the dictionary definition: “inner consistency of reality,” it is difficult to conceive how this can be, if the work does not in some way partake of reality. The peculiar quality of the ”joy” in successful Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden glimpse of the underlying reality or truth. "
What makes a successful fantasy ? Why LotR or Game of Thrones are successful ? It is not because there are dragons, undead, elves and magics because those may be in any fantasy and yet it can be awful . It is because, as Tolkien says, they derive from Reality or are flowing into it . The key is in believability because from believabilty derives immersion and immersion and consistence is what people want in fantasy litterature (or games) .
Pantheon is obviously no exception - it is also inspired from Reality (with an R and not an r) as it must . Gravity pulls things down, the planet is a sphere, it orbits around a sun, there are days and nights, there are seasons, there are mountains and trees, casting the same spell creates the same effect etc etc . So of course Pantheon does NOT take a different approach to Reality because it is impossible for a game - if it really took a different approach the result would be an inconsistent Chaos and the game would be unplayable .
Now what is the worst ennemy of believability ? Contradictions . A contradictory world is unbelievable and doesn't generate any immersion nor this "peculiar joy" Tolkien writes about. For example upwards flowing rivers are a contradiction that everybody percieves intuitively without needing complex analysis . Water has weight (one can drink in Pantheon), gravity pulls things down (otherwise people couldn't walk on Pantheon) so water must flow down and not up (unless there is a mechanical or magical engine making it do so) . More generally in a real or a fantasy world causality always reigns what makes it different from random Chaos .
That's why, imho, putting in Pantheon incorporeal Gnomes or spontaneously upward flowing rivers doesn't make it more "fantasy" it makes it less so .
I agree with you if we were strictly talking the novels and show you listed as shining examples. But we're talking games here. Interactable experiences, which I believe changes the quality of the argument Tolkien put forth.
I agree with Tolkien. I agree so much that if I were to log in and find a system whereby we discover that we are actually in orbit around a binary system we could totally expect to see matchin plantetary behavior - the possibility of having 2 sunrises and sunsets or of one sunrise but two sunsets or two sunrises and one sunset, get my drift? The possibility of ANY circumstance exists in the mind of the creator. Whatever reasoning one has to use to come up with that fantasy, the participants (be it the reader, gamer, etc.) really should be able to simply accept the creators reality of the subject. It will make your immersion more in-depth and more enjoyable. From what I have seen in the streams is that Terminus is not 1:1 with Earth gravity. Terminus seems to be just a bit on the lower end, maybe .8 of Earth. But i don't go on about how the size of the planet must be affecting the local G. I don't mentions that the core of the planet must be lighter than the iron/knickle one that we have here. How do I know? Terminus might be 5 times the size of Earth but since it consists of different materials, it is still possible to have a lighte G. Or we could just accept that Terminus isn't in our Universe at all. Magic works here. Maybe some giant dragon scraped her claw along the equator as she flaw pass one day and viola! life on Terminus. It can BE anything. The best thing we can do is log in and PLAY. Enjoy it for what it is worth - an experience worth having. Let it go folks - love the game. Don't waste too much time trying to compare Earth (or ANY other planet) to Terminus. PLAY. ENJOY. I know I will - no matter WHAT they do with it!
Aradune said:I posted this elsewhere, when a concern was raised that the atlas had some topographic 'anomalies' -- e.g. regions, mountains, rivers, etc. that wouldn't make sense in a real world. Thought I would share it with you all:
The idea of different pieces of planets colliding with Terminus, bringing new races, their architecture, their gods, etc. gives us a ton of creative freedom and a really fun sandbox to play in. Part of that freedom means that one region of the world doesn't have to make sense geographically when compared to an adjacent region. The topography can totally change and in a surprising, unexpected, and yes, 'unrealistic' ways. Yes, this includes the directions rivers may seem to be running or any other 'anomaly' you may perceive in the atlas. Pantheon's world is truly fantasy, with an emphasis on the fantastic.
I realize this is different than, say, Middle Earth. I'm a huge Tolkien fan, I assure you, but so many 'fantasy' worlds (in novels, games, etc.) have also been crafted to be 'realistic fantasy' that we decided to take a different approach with Pantheon, similar to our different (non-traditional) approaches to some of the playable races, etc. Too much 'sameness' is something MMOs have been struggling with, IMHO.
I totally like this concept! It's well reasoned fiction. And you're too right ... there's enough "Earth-based factual fantasy" out there (and there's nothing wrong with that either!). You've got a concept behind the way the planet's topography is like it is, and I can get behind it. I even said in a thread a LONG time ago (Ok, Baz ... there's your challenge!) that I liked how the topography in Norrath "made sense," but I can also appreciate you going outside the lines to create a narrative.
This reminds me of a discussion in the forums of a different game that people were complaining that "plate wearers couldn't cast magic because of the intericate movements needed to cast a spell" -- as if magic were a real thing and if you didn't do it exactly like it's "really supposed to be," then it was all wrong! Who says everything has to be Tolkienesque or D&D? Forge your own path!
Dreconic said:OK, now I want to go fish in a river where the flow is going up a mountain, I want to a dessert, suddenly turn into a forest, and I want a path like in Baarle dividing one city into two different areas!
The St. Johns river in Florida, flows north. And I heard about the sun not setting for days in Alaska- sort of a double suirise?
Even the Arora Borealis, I would not find it a strech to "learn" that the magnetic waves that can be seen also affect gravity- like the moon to the tides.
*edit- added Alaska, The sun does set in FLA tho' in the summer its effects last well into the night, 88degrees and 79pct humitidy until 3am before the "cool" of the night sets in*
Hey Valkerion,
I can't pull a reference out of my...erm, out of thin air, like some ;)
But I do recall reading that some of the races will be starting very close to one another, particularly the races with very limited class selections.
I am sure that the map will be updated at some point, but as to when, who knows?
Joppa said:Malsirian said:
Zarriya said:
The new map of Terminus is looking great!
I agree! Love it!
Is there still more to be revealed?
Yep! Much more of Terminus to be revealed:
"This is the current, known world of Terminus, as expeditions from Kingsreach and Reignfall have only just begun. However, reports are already coming in from the great regions of the East and the frozen reaches of the South..."
Is there a new version or official one in teh works? Just curious.
Ox
Unless I am mistaken, Kingsreach in the continent they have been putting the most effort into. There probably is not a lot of up to date information for Reignfall.
One thing that is interesting, speaking of Kingsreach, is that at one time they did a promo for Wild's End, but we never saw that zone again. I think a lot of the original KR content, including Thronefast, was thrown out. I wonder if WE met the same fate?
bigdogchris said:Unless I am mistaken, Kingsreach in the continent they have been putting the most effort into. There probably is not a lot of up to date information for Reignfall.
One thing that is interesting, speaking of Kingsreach, is that at one time they did a promo for Wild's End, but we never saw that zone again. I think a lot of the original KR content, including Thronefast, was thrown out. I wonder if WE met the same fate?
They did a video recently, last 6 months, where they showed Thronefast. The big red door, and the gray box structures inside etc...
I am at work or I would search through youtube to find it.
Joppa said:
"This is the current, known world of Terminus, as expeditions from Kingsreach and Reignfall have only just begun. However, reports are already coming in from the great regions of the East and the frozen reaches of the South..."
Thanks for the confirmation Joppa. I think most of us who have payed attention to the lore knew Whitethaw was south...but the large icy area to the north confused many. I'm taking this quote as further confirmation that it is indeed to the south.
I wouldn't take it as confirmation of anything, until they update the world map. The reason I say that?
The world of Terminus, being artificially constructed, doesn't have to follow the "cold at the poles" and "tropical at the equator" rules of Earth.
It could literally be a discworld or even turn on it's side, or have multiple suns, or whatever. It has always been confusing that they've made this frozen reaches of the south reference with a frozen north on the map. Unless the map is upside down, which would be even more confusing.
I think you are misreading vjek. The lore has stated all along that whitethaw is to the south of reignfall. It was just that ice area to the north on the atlas that confused people. There is simply more we can't see yet.
I wouldn't begin to guess where the poles or the equatorial divide would be, or assume they were a specific climate.
Valkerion said:Not to necro a thread... but I am just wondering if there is a plan for an updated atlas/map with more recent zones? Also, I see 6 starting areas marked on the Atlas, are we going to get 3 more or are some races going to share?
Yes we will be getting an updated atlas, but there is no ETA for it yet. The continent that is not shown on the current atlas is Whitethaw and it lies directly to the south of Reignfall. That is where the other three races will start. The Dwarf and Archai on land, and then the Gnomes in the city of Skyhold which actually floats in the air above Whitethaw.
bigdogchris said:Unless I am mistaken, Kingsreach in the continent they have been putting the most effort into. There probably is not a lot of up to date information for Reignfall.
One thing that is interesting, speaking of Kingsreach, is that at one time they did a promo for Wild's End, but we never saw that zone again. I think a lot of the original KR content, including Thronefast, was thrown out. I wonder if WE met the same fate?
Wild's End hasn't been scrapped to my knowledge. I would be very surprised. But we haven't seen it since the Dec 2016 stream, so it would be nice to take a trip back! It's possible that it's just undergoing and overhaul, much like Black Rose Keep did. But it's a little late in the game to completely throw out a zone. That would completely mess up the entire timeline of the lore.