Forums » Pantheon Classes

The Knight/Hybrid Dilemma

    • 26 posts
    March 27, 2015 8:36 AM PDT

    Advanced warning: this thread is totally self serving since I main SK/Druids ;)

     

    I wanted to start a discussion about the Knight/Hybrid classes and where everyone feels they fall or should fall in terms of usefulness in a raid or end game group setting. What changes we could make to keep them relevant even if their damage/buff/heals are better done by someone else. I'll be using EQ and VG as my points of reference for obvious reasons.

     

    In EverQuest the hybrids were Shadow Knight, Paladin, Shaman, Druid, Mage, and Bard. All of these classes were capable of filling multiple roles, and as a trade off weren't as good as their more class dedicated counterpart.

     

    Shadow Knight - Warrior/Necromancer.

     Very capable of tanking in a group setting, and off tanking in a raid setting. In terms of DPS it was serviceable but you would almost never take an SK for damage if you had other classes like Wizard or Rogue to fill the spot. Shadow Knights had virtually no unique spells or buffs to offer a raid because Necromancers could do it better. Pet was virtually useless. We could offer some burst DPS in the form of Harm Touch but the cool down was VERY long. Vanguard added Stances to the class which let us switch between a more DPS oriented build or a more durable tank.

     

    Paladin - Warrior/Cleric.

    The ying to the Shadow Knights yang. Again, very capable of tanking in a group setting and off tanking in a raid setting. Decent melee DPS, a couple of buffs that would be overwritten by a cleric and a little bit of healing. Their class ability, Lay on Hands, offered a massive heal on a long cool down that could absolutely save the tanks life in a pinch. Lay on Hands alone made them more desirable in a rain than Shadow Knights, you always wanted a few around, but again, not too many. Outclassed by a multitude of other classes in terms of damage.

     

    Shaman - Heals, Buffs,  Dots, Nukes, Minimal pet damage.

    Shamans had it better than the Knight classes because they had some unique, very powerful buffs, and debuffs that made them essential in a raid setting. The slows they could put on a raid mob was class defining. Their healing and damage was on the low end of the spectrum but was easily negated by the raw power of the buff/debuff they brought to the table.

     

    Druid - Heals, Buffs, Dots, Nukes, Teleports, Minimal pet damage, VERY good at kiting.

    There is a lot of overlap with Shaman. Druid in my opinion had it a little worse than Shaman. Their strength in a raid setting was often times a solid buff, throwing some dots on a raid boss and off healing. You always wanted to have a druid in the raid but you don't want to fill up too many slots with them. They were amazing at soloing and in XP grinding groups. Their teleports were beyond useful but in a raid setting they were outclass by several others.

     

    Mage - Wizard/Pet class.

     Serviceable nuke damage but definitely not as good as a Wizard. This was partially mitigated by their pet, but a pet was often times more of a curse than a blessing in a raid setting. They could get lost, aggro mobs, etc. They had a lot of utility in a group setting.

     

    Bard - Buffs, Crowd Control, Melee Damage, Dots, Nukes, Heals.

    Super unique, super versatile. Their ability to keep up multiple buffs, heals, dots at once while adding some melee DPS put them in a league of their own. Super powered kiters who could run at hyper speed and excel in solo or group settings. Their DPS was pretty bad in a raid but their ability to fill multiple roles made it so you always wanted to have bards around.

     

    Each of these classes had to make a trade off. SK/Paladin got to wear plate and have a larger HP pool so we take a hit on the damage. Shamans and Druids offered more damage than a cleric so their healing takes a hit, their unique buffs/debuffs still kept them relevant, however. Mages got to use pets so they couldn't pump out as much nuke damage as a wizard.

     

    It's a fine line. If you just raise the DPS across all the hybrid classes then you run into a situation where there is no point in picking a pure DPS class.

     

    In Rift they dealt with this by letting all classes fill two roles. Warriors could tank or be end game DPS. Rogues could be DPS or evasion based tanks capable of tanking for a raid. Wizards could be DPS or pretty serviceable healers. 

     

    In a game like Pantheon where they're going to be putting importance on class uniqueness, what does that mean for the hybrids?

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Thakorr at March 27, 2015 9:38 AM PDT
    • 1456 posts
    March 27, 2015 8:51 AM PDT

    The first thing that comes to mind is the fact that they have better survivability outside of raid situations, so thats already a plus.  Another staple for knights is their AE threat generating abilities.

     

    As knights, I think it would be interesting to see them have some more protective abilities where they are able to block some incoming attacks on friendly players.  That type of thing is better suited to their general lore.

     

    Concerning the ability to switch to dps, its possible that the class specialization could include a path that provides more damage abilities, while the other could focus more on tank or protective abilities.

     

    I think the knight should be capable of tanking most mobs with only particular higher damage-dealing mobs which will generally require the skills of a warrior.

     

    Just a few ideas off the top of my head.

    • 110 posts
    March 27, 2015 9:35 AM PDT
    Dullahan said:

    The first thing that comes to mind is the fact that they have better survivability outside of raid situations, so thats already a plus.  Another staple for knights is their AE threat generating abilities.

    I think this is potentially a problem.  If we've determined that raiding is going to be the sole focus of endgame based loot progression then how much of a bonus is being good in the areas where you can progress your chosen class?  I'm all for not giving everyone who logs in everything in the game, but if I chose to main a druid I should be just as able to progress through endgame content as someone who chose a cleric - provided we both put in the same effort.

    As knights, I think it would be interesting to see them have some more protective abilities where they are able to block some incoming attacks on friendly players.  That type of thing is better suited to their general lore.

     

    Concerning the ability to switch to dps, its possible that the class specialization could include a path that provides more damage abilities, while the other could focus more on tank or protective abilities.

     

    I think the knight should be capable of tanking most mobs with only particular higher damage-dealing mobs which will generally require the skills of a warrior.

     

    Just a few ideas off the top of my head.

    I generally agree with everything else here.

    • 26 posts
    March 27, 2015 9:37 AM PDT
    Gurt said:
     going to be the sole focus of endgame based loot progression then how much of a bonus is being good in the areas where you can progress your chosen class?  I'm all for not giving everyone who logs in everything in the game, but if I chose to main a druid I should be just as able to progress through endgame content as someone who chose a cleric - provided we both put in the same effort.

    Well said. I absolutely agree with this sentiment. It feels pretty bad to be "punished" or left behind due to a class choice. 

    • 1456 posts
    March 27, 2015 10:37 AM PDT
    Gurt said:
    Dullahan said:

    The first thing that comes to mind is the fact that they have better survivability outside of raid situations, so thats already a plus.  Another staple for knights is their AE threat generating abilities.

    I think this is potentially a problem.  If we've determined that raiding is going to be the sole focus of endgame based loot progression then how much of a bonus is being good in the areas where you can progress your chosen class?  I'm all for not giving everyone who logs in everything in the game, but if I chose to main a druid I should be just as able to progress through endgame content as someone who chose a cleric - provided we both put in the same effort.

    As knights, I think it would be interesting to see them have some more protective abilities where they are able to block some incoming attacks on friendly players.  That type of thing is better suited to their general lore.

     

    Concerning the ability to switch to dps, its possible that the class specialization could include a path that provides more damage abilities, while the other could focus more on tank or protective abilities.

     

    I think the knight should be capable of tanking most mobs with only particular higher damage-dealing mobs which will generally require the skills of a warrior.

     

    Just a few ideas off the top of my head.

    I generally agree with everything else here.

    Well it sounds like theres going to be a ton of content in Pantheon outside of raiding, I'm guessing considerably more than than there will be for raiding.  Very particular armor sets, spells and abilities will come from group content, and thats just what we know of.  The leveling process will also be much slower than your modern casual mmo, and because of that, not only will it take a while but new people will always be looking for xp groups and to farm items.  That said, its not like its the only benefit of knights, and permitted there isn't the same rigidity with main tanking as there was in EQ, knights should have a solid role in just about any scenario.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at March 27, 2015 10:38 AM PDT
    • 110 posts
    March 27, 2015 1:27 PM PDT
    Dullahan said:
    Gurt said:
    Dullahan said:

    The first thing that comes to mind is the fact that they have better survivability outside of raid situations, so thats already a plus.  Another staple for knights is their AE threat generating abilities.

    I think this is potentially a problem.  If we've determined that raiding is going to be the sole focus of endgame based loot progression then how much of a bonus is being good in the areas where you can progress your chosen class?  I'm all for not giving everyone who logs in everything in the game, but if I chose to main a druid I should be just as able to progress through endgame content as someone who chose a cleric - provided we both put in the same effort.

    As knights, I think it would be interesting to see them have some more protective abilities where they are able to block some incoming attacks on friendly players.  That type of thing is better suited to their general lore.

     

    Concerning the ability to switch to dps, its possible that the class specialization could include a path that provides more damage abilities, while the other could focus more on tank or protective abilities.

     

    I think the knight should be capable of tanking most mobs with only particular higher damage-dealing mobs which will generally require the skills of a warrior.

     

    Just a few ideas off the top of my head.

    I generally agree with everything else here.

    Well it sounds like theres going to be a ton of content in Pantheon outside of raiding, I'm guessing considerably more than than there will be for raiding.  Very particular armor sets, spells and abilities will come from group content, and thats just what we know of.  The leveling process will also be much slower than your modern casual mmo, and because of that, not only will it take a while but new people will always be looking for xp groups and to farm items.  That said, its not like its the only benefit of knights, and permitted there isn't the same rigidity with main tanking as there was in EQ, knights should have a solid role in just about any scenario.

    The problems all go away if every class has a strong role that they can fill in the raid and if those classes are needed in the proportion that players chose them (i.e. if you need only 1 druid in a 40 man raid and the ratio of druids to every other class combined is 1:39 there's no problem).  For the sake of the argument lets assume that this isn't the case.

     

    By having gear that is defined as the best you give the player base a goal to obtain.  There is no inherent problem in this, but you have to realize that 100% of the player base is going to be striving to obtain the best gear.  When you then make it so that the best gear for every class comes from raiding you are telling every single player that to be the best they have to raid.  Again there is no inherent problem with this.  The problem arises when you have a class that is played by a large group of players that is not needed or wanted in raids in proportion to the size of that class's player base.  For an example of this we need look no further than vanilla WoW.  In WoW the hunter was one of if not the most popular class, however because of the problems with pets before burning crusade, the lower dps of the hunter and because hunters were MAD (multiple attribute dependent), they ended up being the least wanted class in raids.  This made it much, much harder for hunters to obtain their endgame epics than a priest or warrior of similar dedication.


    This post was edited by Gurt at March 27, 2015 10:03 PM PDT
    • 12 posts
    April 9, 2015 6:37 AM PDT

    I made a mention of a system that could work for hybrids in the cleric posting, but to sum it up, if you have your hybrid teamed up with your pure class, then there is a pairing buff that then bolsters the hybrid.  If a paladin is teamed with a priest for example, the priest being the purest of their line, would then bolster the paladin's priest line, but then if he is in a group with a warrior too they get a boost along that line.  The idea is simple and needs some tweaking.

    Example usage is a priest is marking a target for the paladin, and its of an undead line, then the paladin in theory would do more damage to that target than any other dps role.  If a warrior calls for an off tank (marks it in some way, debuff, whatever) then the paladin (or dark knight) could offtank more effectively in that role than a pure class.  A pure tank / warrior is most effective as main tanking or unbolstered dps, where as a paladin would require hybrid lines to be more effective than the pure lines.

    Again a very rough idea, but I think there is something there.

    • 165 posts
    November 5, 2015 11:56 AM PST

    In a game where the exp is hard to obtain, not everyone is going to even make it to max level. In final fantasy 14 the exp is much harder than any other modern day mmo (and about 1/20th the exp needed by eq) and a lot of people still don't reach max level.  So if you're a class that has an easier time soloing unfortunately you just might not be as useful grouping.  i appreciate games that raiding isn't the main or only reason to play.

    • 51 posts
    November 5, 2015 3:33 PM PST

    As long as i have the option to play my plate class as a dps, i'm happy. I really don't enjoy being relagated to tank duties simply for my armor preference.

    • 165 posts
    November 5, 2015 8:52 PM PST

    i never thought about it there really is no direct dps plate class in eq. If you wear plate I suppose your expecting to get hit.

    • 1959 posts
    November 29, 2015 8:59 AM PST

    Dullahan said:

    Well it sounds like theres going to be a ton of content in Pantheon outside of raiding, I'm guessing considerably more than than there will be for raiding.  Very particular armor sets, spells and abilities will come from group content, and thats just what we know of.  The leveling process will also be much slower than your modern casual mmo, and because of that, not only will it take a while but new people will always be looking for xp groups and to farm items.  That said, its not like its the only benefit of knights, and permitted there isn't the same rigidity with main tanking as there was in EQ, knights should have a solid role in just about any scenario.

    Initially this will be true, yes, but even EQ1 which started out wholly group focused turned into a raiding game by the 3rd expansion.

    We really must be careful in making assumptions in areas like leveling speed, focus of content, etc as those assumptions will be overturned eventually...probably sooner than later.  Just because one person took months to reach maximum level does not in any way mean the next person will take the same length of time.  We all remember EQ1 and power-leveling our alts or friends or people who pay for it, yes?  or twinking?  All that compressed the leveling time dramatically, turning the early zones into empty wastelands.

    But for this hybrid dilemma, it really isn't a dilemma if content is created which better exploited by the abilities of the hybrid classes.  Group level content I'm not so worried about because as a usual hybrid player (ranger, shaman, druid) when grouped with other hybrids the overall capabilities of the group far surpassed that of the Holy Trinity based group.  Combat with a full hybrid group was more exciting as each player really needed to bring their full suite of character abilities to bear.

    Raids which were single target focused (most of the dragons, giants, some PoP bosses, etc) naturally did not need a very diverse raid population because of how the content was designed.  When raids had to deal with multiple targets simultaneously (Vex Thal, Ssra Temple, PoTB) then the true value of the hybrid classes was realized.  Having those hybrid off-tanks backed up by hybrid healers, etc gave, at least to me, far more satisfaction when the encounter was defeated.

    If the content is designed properly, thoughtfully, then this dilemma might go away on its own.

    • 466 posts
    February 8, 2016 1:19 PM PST

    My Paladin was a jack oif all traders but a Master of none.  In raids where I knew they didnt need my tank I Often was brought along for some extra DPS as well as healing and helping to ward the Main tank.  in groups I was used for everything heal a zone tank a zone off tank a zone.  It didnt really matter so i was okay with never being a DPS machine or not always being the MT

    • 1456 posts
    February 15, 2016 10:32 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    Initially this will be true, yes, but even EQ1 which started out wholly group focused turned into a raiding game by the 3rd expansion.

    We really must be careful in making assumptions in areas like leveling speed, focus of content, etc as those assumptions will be overturned eventually...probably sooner than later.  

    I know this reponse is really late, but to the statement above I say, why? Why should we assume that the focus of the game is going to change? Those decisions weren't made of necessity, nor were they inevitable. It was simply a bad decision to make the game raid focused, and one among many that made EQ more of a linear gear grind themepark game rather than a virtual world.

    Pantheon has stated that they have every intention of correcting that aspect of the game by keeping it more group focused. There was nothing that warranted the change in EQ and I think its going out on a limb to assume that it will happen in Pantheon.

    • 62 posts
    March 13, 2016 5:04 AM PDT

    I generally agree with the OP's classifications but I have to say that we used an SK as a main tank much of the time in EQ and successfully raided all content in all expansions through Quarm in PoP. Sure there were some fights where it was really required to have a Warrior and even some fights where a Paladin was better suited but we had a beast of an SK that filled the role of MT well. I also played a druid and frequently filled in as a cleric on CH rotations because we were chronically low on clerics. Sometimes we even had multiple druids in the rotation. It wasn't ideal because druid CH wasn't a true CH (75% iirc) but if you sandwhiched a druid in between two clerics you could make it work.

    This is what I loved about EQ. Classes all had their class defining role but there was enough overlap between them that you had flexibility to be creative. I hope Pantheon has a similar setup with classes.

    • 18 posts
    June 29, 2016 7:50 PM PDT

    When i played my SK in eq on raid did alot of OT till AA's came out then i could start to MT some stuff but war was still better. Then pop made it easyer for SK to MT in raids. My DK in vanguard was MT in my guild and most the time i was haveing problems with OT cuz they get close and i would pull there mobs off them. I would be fine just leave them with nothing to do lol. I for one would like all tanks to be even not one better then the other maby have one good at this fight and others ot and change it up on next fight. I know in EQ and VG the SK/DK had great agro so made them good for OTing i did not mind it but i know alot of people in EQ mostly that switched to war to be MT. So i just hope that all tanks are needed on raids not just War MT crusade/DL OT/buffs back up heal.

    I love tanking i ran SK and war in eq and in VG i had dk i just hope the hybrids are not as bad as when eq frist came out cuz they could not do any raid tanking cuz war just took hits soo much better then them. as long as they balance the hybrids right there will be no problems.

    Now the dru/shm in eq when they frist came out where hard to get groups with cuz they could not out heal cle or out dps other class. The shm slow was nice but alot of groups wanted a ench cuz they could cc slow and haste. with dru they could not out dps a wiz or rog and so on. Also could not heal as good as a cle so they had hard time getting groups. Shamans changed when kunark came out. But it was not till aa's that dru started to do alot more. So i hope they give each class something that makes it so groups will want them.

    Its all about balance. I hope they do that well like vanguard class where balanced great. i will say though i only played DK shm and war with VG but i liked each.

    • 2013 posts
    June 30, 2016 6:56 PM PDT

    This is a topic near and dear to my heart. I have made several posts and about 4 recently concerning this topic in general and more specifically as it relates to the direction VR is taking with with support roles. In general my biggest concern with hybrid classes is that they could either become useless in situations such as endgame or that they become OP in general. This is not to say I dont like hybrid classes because my Mains all tend to be some form of hybrid (either actual hybrids between classes or in general such as a mage like tank (Ninja) or a rogue like mage (Bard) or a hybrid melee/mage dps (Bluemage).

     

    However its never a good idea to create classes that cant help or arent wanted for all battle related content. Would feel differently about maybe crafter specific classes, but I doubt that would be a thing. I also dont think its fair to make them take on "backup" positions instead of letting them fulfill their main role (If I was a Paladin tank I dont know why anyone would think I would rather heal?) FFXI created 2 classes that for most of the games history (and maybe even now) were considered subpar for most anything and absolutely useless for endgame (Dragoon and Beastmaster, though at least beastmaster could solo xp). I would rather a class not exist than be called LOLDRG.

     

    On the other hand, you also had classes like Redmage: jack of all trades, master of all trades. This class was to FFXI what I understand Bard was to EQ and VG. It was just too OP. And could fill most any role in most cases. And could still do all but tank at endgame. And on top of that they were master debuffers above all. Thats just stupid, We dont need things like that. And honestly I think the Shaman reveal while cool sort of looks like it could go this way.

     

    There is nothing wrong with knight/hybrid classes. They just need to be balanced to not be OP while at the same time not nerfed into useless. I think the easiest way to do this is to keep classes locked into no more than 1 or 2 roles at a time. And the support category is a bit too inclusive. So Id say any one or 2 of these roles: Tank, DPS, Healer, CC, Buffer, Debuffer. And of course including different utlity and specialty abilities where needed (lockpick, FD, ports, etc). Examples below:

     

    Crusader: Tank

     

    Dire Lord: DPS/Debuffer

     

    Warrior: Tank/DPS

     

    Cleric: Healer/Buffer (defensive)

     

    Druid: Healer/Buffer (defensive)

     

    Rogue: DPS/Debuffer

     

    Ranger: DPS

     

    Summoner: DPS/Buffer (defensive and offensive)

     

    Wizard: DPS

     

    Monk: DPS/CC

     

    Enchanter: CC/Buffer (resource and offensive)

     

    Shaman: CC/Debuffer

     

    Bard: DeBuffer/Buffer (resource and offensive )

     

    Necromancer: DPS

     

     

    Just threw stuff together that seemd nice, not perfect but the point was to limit the roles of individual classes to promote more interdependence and increase need of classes. No class left beheind lol.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    • 500 posts
    June 30, 2016 8:26 PM PDT

    I'm very fond of making every class have a support role of some kind. Perhaps the more we learn about different advance paths we will learn more about what the Devs are going to focus on. We may see a Dire Lord healer for all we know. 

     

    -Todd

    • 2013 posts
    June 30, 2016 9:27 PM PDT

    Well so far looking at the first 3 reveals that might be the case? And Im not necessarily strongly against that, but if Im honest its not the approach I would have taken. But of course that is rooted in me wanting to play a primary buffer/debuffer with a cool selection of out of combat utility skills. What remains to be seen is if that would still fit into VRs vision. It worked in FFXI, but it might not in Pantheon especially if they want to downplay support roles and give everyone some support functions. Then something like FFXIs Bard couldnt exist because the buffs and debuffs would be too OP compared to other buffs and debuffsfrom other classes. But at the same time it would be fair because that class would not be a significant source of dps, healing, CC or tanking. Essentially making it a class that is the life of the party, and unable to truly do anything without a party. I would welcome such a class myself but I realize some people want to be able to solo some things or be able to fill other roles.

     

    Its an interesting topic and I hope we fin more about this stuff soon. And you could be very right about different advance paths. It could be that my fears are unfounded because at a certain point a Shaman would have to choose a path of more healing or more hexing. What ever happens with support, please Devs dont make me have to be a healer.

    • 516 posts
    August 9, 2016 5:19 PM PDT

    Your SK/Druid  hybrid?  Eq2 did it - it's called a Fury....