Forums » News and Announcements

Developer Round Table 2.28.15 – Part 2

    • 238 posts
    March 14, 2015 7:29 PM PDT
    Zlambit said:

    I think it is a different approach to the talent trees or paths or subclass system of other games, that might be good or it might not be, what it will end up being though, is a royal pain in the rear for both players and developers.

     

    Creating all the armors weapons and other stuff with various stats for the different classes, making sure there is enough difference to justify the time spent on them and then ask your players to spreadsheet the various armors they will need for their core and 2 masteries, not to mention inventory space for 3 armor sets, and it does not match up with weight being a factor as stated previously.

    Could it be good or even awesome, sure, worth the effort for both sides, i doubt it.

     

    Glad to see that thinking outside the box though, be alot easier to comment if we could see it in action *cough alpha cough cough*, darn that cold weather ^_^

     

    Dont forget they have talked about needing armor stets for "situation" purposes. You may also have a vs cold/fire/poison, underwater set....

    • 671 posts
    March 15, 2015 7:34 PM PDT

    So no real min/max. Just best case scenario...

     

     

    • 49 posts
    March 15, 2015 9:02 PM PDT

    I dont get why everyone get all up in arms about hearing a cleric will wear plate. Hasnt a cleric always worn plate? I know my cleric in EQ and VG both wore plate and if we are talking about clerics from other games does it matter since this game is being developed by the same guy that brought us EQ and VG ) . Well i know this will prob get some negative things said but... i really hope the game plays more like VG than EQ. I played EQ from launch until GoD and loved it. Then i got in VG beta and was blown away. You mean i can actually do things beside cast and wait on a cooldown or use and ability and just watch auto atk. Oh look i can use abilities as i move. not just joust and wait for my time in the heal rotation. Now dont take this as im knoking EQ because im not , i played it for years until a better system to me came along. It was new, different and a hell of alot of fun. And from what i hear it sounds to me that what they are trying to do here. Make a great hardcore game that is diffrent from anything you have played before mechanic wise but yet still the same. I love what im hearing

    • 288 posts
    March 15, 2015 9:52 PM PDT
    Theun said:

    I dont get why everyone get all up in arms about hearing a cleric will wear plate. Hasnt a cleric always worn plate? I know my cleric in EQ and VG both wore plate and if we are talking about clerics from other games does it matter since this game is being developed by the same guy that brought us EQ and VG ) . Well i know this will prob get some negative things said but... i really hope the game plays more like VG than EQ. I played EQ from launch until GoD and loved it. Then i got in VG beta and was blown away. You mean i can actually do things beside cast and wait on a cooldown or use and ability and just watch auto atk. Oh look i can use abilities as i move. not just joust and wait for my time in the heal rotation. Now dont take this as im knoking EQ because im not , i played it for years until a better system to me came along. It was new, different and a hell of alot of fun. And from what i hear it sounds to me that what they are trying to do here. Make a great hardcore game that is diffrent from anything you have played before mechanic wise but yet still the same. I love what im hearing

     

    I think you misunderstand, nobody is saying clerics shouldn't wear plate, they should heh.  It's just that when they put something like "When you change from 1 cleric stance to the next you can wear heavy plate instead of light plate" then I take that as the difference between wearing chain and wearing plate.  If a person can choose between 2 different types of armor I feel that that is not good for a game.  It also hearkens to the fact that this would give quite a bit of power, and if having that specialization gives that kind of power, I and a lot of other people I have talked to feel that it should be a decision that you have to make, to go 1 way or the other and not have access to both and be able to play both styles on the fly whenever you want.

     

    For example, my group is crawling through a dungeon.. our cleric is in paladin mode helping cc and tank a bit maybe and dps, when the group gets low and out of gas he switches to healer cleric for 30 minutes or so heals the group up to full rebuffs everyone and then back to paladin mode he goes... this is the kinda stuff we don't want to see.

     

    Now I'm not saying thats what they are doing, we're just playing devils advocate and making sure every subject is thoroughly discussed so that something we did NOT discuss doesn't slip through into the game, then down the road we're like wth!

    • 9115 posts
    March 15, 2015 10:16 PM PDT
    Theun said:

    I dont get why everyone get all up in arms about hearing a cleric will wear plate. Hasnt a cleric always worn plate? I know my cleric in EQ and VG both wore plate and if we are talking about clerics from other games does it matter since this game is being developed by the same guy that brought us EQ and VG ) . Well i know this will prob get some negative things said but... i really hope the game plays more like VG than EQ. I played EQ from launch until GoD and loved it. Then i got in VG beta and was blown away. You mean i can actually do things beside cast and wait on a cooldown or use and ability and just watch auto atk. Oh look i can use abilities as i move. not just joust and wait for my time in the heal rotation. Now dont take this as im knoking EQ because im not , i played it for years until a better system to me came along. It was new, different and a hell of alot of fun. And from what i hear it sounds to me that what they are trying to do here. Make a great hardcore game that is diffrent from anything you have played before mechanic wise but yet still the same. I love what im hearing

    There was one or two posts talking about Plate but I don;t see it as an issue either, I think they were more concerned with tanking abilities in plate than anything but the biggest concern a lot of people have is with other healing classes being able to heal just as well in groups or else they will feel under par and less played, since the trend is to always play the best class at something and if Cleric rules all healers, then it is more than likely hardly anyone will play the other healers or when they do they will complain and raise concerns of balance down the track, which are valid concerns in my opinion.

    I am going to go out on a limb and back you here too mate, I feel the same with combat and I really think VG not only did the classes better but they also nailed the combat down much better than EQ did and I am hearing many people feeling the same. Combat is something we need to get right so I know Chris and the team are looking into this right now and are aware of everyones thoughts and concerns.

    • 999 posts
    March 15, 2015 10:23 PM PDT
    Rallyd said:

    I think you misunderstand, nobody is saying clerics shouldn't wear plate, they should heh.  It's just that when they put something like "When you change from 1 cleric stance to the next you can wear heavy plate instead of light plate" then I take that as the difference between wearing chain and wearing plate.  If a person can choose between 2 different types of armor I feel that that is not good for a game.  It also hearkens to the fact that this would give quite a bit of power, and if having that specialization gives that kind of power, I and a lot of other people I have talked to feel that it should be a decision that you have to make, to go 1 way or the other and not have access to both and be able to play both styles on the fly whenever you want.

    For example, my group is crawling through a dungeon.. our cleric is in paladin mode helping cc and tank a bit maybe and dps, when the group gets low and out of gas he switches to healer cleric for 30 minutes or so heals the group up to full rebuffs everyone and then back to paladin mode he goes... this is the kinda stuff we don't want to see.

    Now I'm not saying thats what they are doing, we're just playing devils advocate and making sure every subject is thoroughly discussed so that something we did NOT discuss doesn't slip through into the game, then down the road we're like wth!


    Rallyd - I agree most of what you say regarding this topic, and I also agree with you that Theun misunderstood the point, but, I would argue aganist your point here in response to him about a cleric not being able to wear plate or chain. 

     

    Even in EQ (and most other RPGs I've ever played) you were typically restricted by the highest quality/level of armor, not the lowest.  So, if you could wear Plate, then you could also wear Chain -> Leather - > Cloth.  There was class specific gear in each tier that was different and restricted to only the class, but I don't think there's anything wrong with a class being able to wear multiple types of armor if the class's lore, etc. supports it (I don't want to see a wizard in plate for example).

     

    To clarify for Theun, my point was not that cleric's shouldn't wear plate - I have no issue with that; however, I was questioning more the system itself - plate armor shouldn't determine what spells my cleric can cast (the multi-colored mana discussion) or Rallyd's second point in that swapping gear to change a specialization/mastery which allows for crossover skills i.e. a crowd controling cleric (I realize the CC is not meant to be as good as an enchanter, but an enchanter can't heal the group either - why not have 3 clerics?) seems to muddle a classes' identity and role.

     

    With all that being said though, I listened to the Roundtable again and I still appreciate the passion I can here from the development team, and the willingness to take risks and innovate, so I will patiently wait to see how it tests before I dismiss it any further.


    This post was edited by Raidan at March 16, 2015 2:13 AM PDT
    • 610 posts
    March 16, 2015 2:12 AM PDT
    Rallyd said:
    Theun said:

    I dont get why everyone get all up in arms about hearing a cleric will wear plate. Hasnt a cleric always worn plate? I know my cleric in EQ and VG both wore plate and if we are talking about clerics from other games does it matter since this game is being developed by the same guy that brought us EQ and VG ) . Well i know this will prob get some negative things said but... i really hope the game plays more like VG than EQ. I played EQ from launch until GoD and loved it. Then i got in VG beta and was blown away. You mean i can actually do things beside cast and wait on a cooldown or use and ability and just watch auto atk. Oh look i can use abilities as i move. not just joust and wait for my time in the heal rotation. Now dont take this as im knoking EQ because im not , i played it for years until a better system to me came along. It was new, different and a hell of alot of fun. And from what i hear it sounds to me that what they are trying to do here. Make a great hardcore game that is diffrent from anything you have played before mechanic wise but yet still the same. I love what im hearing

     

    I think you misunderstand, nobody is saying clerics shouldn't wear plate, they should heh.  It's just that when they put something like "When you change from 1 cleric stance to the next you can wear heavy plate instead of light plate" then I take that as the difference between wearing chain and wearing plate.  If a person can choose between 2 different types of armor I feel that that is not good for a game.  It also hearkens to the fact that this would give quite a bit of power, and if having that specialization gives that kind of power, I and a lot of other people I have talked to feel that it should be a decision that you have to make, to go 1 way or the other and not have access to both and be able to play both styles on the fly whenever you want.

     

    For example, my group is crawling through a dungeon.. our cleric is in paladin mode helping cc and tank a bit maybe and dps, when the group gets low and out of gas he switches to healer cleric for 30 minutes or so heals the group up to full rebuffs everyone and then back to paladin mode he goes... this is the kinda stuff we don't want to see.

     

    Now I'm not saying thats what they are doing, we're just playing devils advocate and making sure every subject is thoroughly discussed so that something we did NOT discuss doesn't slip through into the game, then down the road we're like wth!

    Why would he have to switch from "Paladin mode" to "Healer mode"?

    Joppa has stated many many times that they are BOTH primary healers....doesnt matter what mode they are in they are both still clerics.

    I think everyone is still thinking of this as like they had in WoW or EQ2....you had a Heal spec or a DPS spec etc

    here you are a healer no matter what, just that in one spec you have a little more front line action

    where as in the other spec you have a bit more back line (not even sure what the special feature here is) action

    • 288 posts
    March 16, 2015 5:29 PM PDT

    The issue is not the modes or how they function, the issue is the ability to switch at will.  I feel that anything short of a major quest to change your "specialization" or at the minimum a 24 hour timer, will cheapen the strategy of the game and muddle people's identities.  Instead of saying hey we're going to Dungeon A, it needs a bit of this, let's get John because he's a really good front-line cleric and we need that, instead it will be /tell John hey can you come do this dungeon with us, we'll need your front-line build.

     

    Overall this will reduce the need to create large social webs as with 1 of every class you can X off all the specs at once, because anyone can play anything at any time.  I feel the need for having diversity within a class is a good thing, but I want the choices you make to diversify yourself to follow you.  Having your cake and eating it too is what every MMO since Everquest have done, including Vanguard in some situations, and thats what I thought the purpose of this game was, to make a great game that doesn't compromise on difficulty and identity.

    • 132 posts
    March 18, 2015 5:18 AM PDT

    Sorry for being late with a response on this but I have been sick for 2 weeks.. :/

    Anyways! Super great roundtable, it all sounded great! It almost sounded to great! My doubt started to kick in since Ive been burned by promising devs before. It sounded awesome and it will be awesome if you deliver! Please don't change! ^^

     

    Keep up the good work!

    I don't really have anything to complain about on this one! :)

    • 1778 posts
    March 18, 2015 9:05 AM PDT
    Late to the discussion myself. Anyways as a FFXI vet Im probably a little biased, but I love the gear swaping and dual specing. I also find the mechanics of the system interesting and more complex than most modern day MMOs which have become almost ridiculously simple.

    This us not to say that the system doesnt warrant close examination and good testing during alphas and what not. After all FFXI had 18 classes and sub classes when i played (more now) and one of the biggest issues was ballance. Thats how some endgame activity became 1 paladin, 1 whitemage, and 16 Blackmages........ However, I never saw changing Jobs itself being a problem. Then again the very idea of alts (mostly due to FFXI) makes me uncomfortable. I realize these sentiments might be a little unpopular, but there it is. The ten years i played XI was one of the best gaming of my life.

    I think its important to point out that subjobs most of the time werent OP or gamebreaking. Any blackmage using heals durring an endgame event is (a) doing it wrong and (b) quickly to be replaced. The freedom and power subjobs brought to the table allowed for some interesting combos, BUT make no mistake it was still a heavily group based game. If you were a jack of all trades you were a master of none. And if you were a master of a role...... thats pretty much all you could do. All this made a very community based game. 90% of the time not having a (LS) guild meant not getting anything accomplished. Pick up groups were basically only for leveling.

    While subjobs werent a problem IMO, ballance between main jobs was in that some jobs were "useless". This was likely because there were simply too many jobs and several of each role. Dragoon and Beastmaster being the main 2 classes nobody wanted. And Blackmage and KC Darknights being the main 2 OP classes (or should i say gamebreaking?) Despite its flaws I did have fun with the game for 10 years and about 7 of them were with the same 30 or so people in our guild.

    Ok let me wrap this up with a couple of thoughts near and dear to my heart. Whatever class mechanics we have for the final game. I believe there should be NO useless classes. If a class isnt worth taking, then it never should have been made. I dont mean ideal. There will always be a best group of classes or builds for a given situation. But I like a system flexible enough for me to bring that other tank or that other dps, etc. I also am a firm believer in being able to approach encounters in multiple ways which in turn can play yo the strengths of a class as needed. Now that doesnt mean that the devs couldnt make certain content tuned for a specific class or group of classes. But what i hate is how a lot of modern MMOs will make these extremely tuned and highly choreographed encounters that leave no room for being creative with class loadout or tactics. For instance kiting vs straight tanking vs dual tanking vs heavy CC based on the strengths of your classes. Instead its become you MUST take classes x y and z and you must stand here here and here then move here here and here, etc etc. I like iy to be more about knowing your classes and playing to your stengths more than memorizing specific steps to a dance. The game needs to be fun, complex, interesting, and class interdependent. It doesnt need to be a group a 6 people that just happen to be whacking the same mole in a specific repetitive pattern for a given encounter. Thats boring and exhausting.
    • 1778 posts
    March 18, 2015 9:25 AM PDT
    Sorry for the double post. Android wont let me use the edit... grrrr.

    I am also wondering about the fewer levels and more horizontal progression idea. I liked it and the limit break style challenge ideas that made you have to accomplish something before you could continue leveling. I do think needing to collect multiple armor sets lends itself well to the horizontal focus on progression though.
    • 107 posts
    March 18, 2015 9:33 AM PDT

    Haven't had time to thoroughly read all information, but I certainly hope Pantheon sticks with the trinity (tank/healer/dps). I can tell you that I have zero interest in any game that blurs these line.  Color me concerned.

     

    • 107 posts
    March 21, 2015 7:01 PM PDT
    Filzin said:

    Haven't had time to thoroughly read all information, but I certainly hope Pantheon sticks with the trinity (tank/healer/dps). I can tell you that I have zero interest in any game that blurs these line.  Color me concerned.

     

    After listening to the broadcast I am slightly less concerned. Sounds like the team is very aware of the importance of maintaining class identity. As long as these abilities are well thought out. One of the things I disliked about Vanguard, was the attempt to make classes interchangeable. Every class having some form of CC absolutely made CC useless to me. Every class having an identity and their own strengths and weaknesses was probably one of the things that made EQ great. The same can be said for races. An Ogre warrior was completely different from an erudite warrior (I don't remember if that was an actual option, but hopefully my point is made).

    • 106 posts
    March 21, 2015 7:35 PM PDT
    Filzin said:
    Filzin said:

    Haven't had time to thoroughly read all information, but I certainly hope Pantheon sticks with the trinity (tank/healer/dps). I can tell you that I have zero interest in any game that blurs these line.  Color me concerned.

     

    After listening to the broadcast I am slightly less concerned. Sounds like the team is very aware of the importance of maintaining class identity. As long as these abilities are well thought out. One of the things I disliked about Vanguard, was the attempt to make classes interchangeable. Every class having some form of CC absolutely made CC useless to me. Every class having an identity and their own strengths and weaknesses was probably one of the things that made EQ great. The same can be said for races. An Ogre warrior was completely different from an erudite warrior (I don't remember if that was an actual option, but hopefully my point is made).


    Couldn't agree more, and I feel this is exactly what the big guys up stairs are thinking :D
    • VR Staff
    • 176 posts
    March 21, 2015 8:37 PM PDT
    There is much I plan to respond to in this thread very soon - GREAT discussion and feedback going on in here and very helpful to me as I continue to flesh out our class design.

    The one thing I did want to hop in and say is that we will under no circumstances move forward with a design that weakens the identity of our classes. Defined and persistent Class roles are a fundamental paradigm of our class system and you can count on that.

    More info coming soon!
    This post was edited by Joppa at March 24, 2015 5:01 PM PDT
    • 1778 posts
    March 24, 2015 1:16 PM PDT
    Sweet! Look forward to hearing all about it. Any ETA on disclosure of greater details on class and race mechanics/alignments/perks/etc?

    I do realize thats a bit of a loaded question. ^.^