Just a little history on where I am coming from. Played EQ from Kunark till release of WoW. Played WoW till current with obviously the occasional "this mmo is going to own" in between including Vanguard(best mmo class balance imho)
I stop and think back what made EQ so unique to me the first day I logged in and what drove me nuts by the time I logged out for the last time. What drove me to vanguard and what drove me away.
Pro's EQ-
Everything mattered at every level
Level grind forced you to learn the class before ever max'ing level
raiding was useful before max level.
AA's a reason to log in anytime you were not raiding and still helping your raid
The fear I felt running from Everfrost to N Freeport
the trains from blackburrow
MOSTLY the NEED for each player in your guild and those not in your guild and the self policing it created
Negatives of EQ
Hell levels (I know this was a coding issue)
Travel grinds
2 hour corpse runs (I am not against losing exp on death though)
Felt (as a shaman) anytime a spell was needed to be added to the class the excuse was "you can solo dragons" felt no connection to dev's (devo ego)
The lack of variety in raid encounters.
vanguard was simple- LOVED the class's and class balance, HATED the bugs and that it was rushed out. I also felt it was to big a world to start with.
I am looking forward to Pantheon because it is targeted to a specific type of player without the feel to cater to another. I am looking forward to a game of quality that requires group interaction and is specifically for core to hard core players.
Request-
1- AA's
2- Gear sets for low lvl that are quested
3- Legendary quests that we can start and do parts of all the way through the leveling experience
4- NO FLYING
LOVE this game and am excited
Strykr619 said:
No flying? Sorry but no flying is a no go if you want a dynamic MMORPG. Your just going to limit the potential a game has to grow, now If you said "please make sure the flight doesn't trivialize the game" that I agree with.
I'm not too big on flying mounts or flying myself. However, if it does exist, it should be very time consuming in order to achieve it. Flying allows people to bypass content and "the world." There is ways to make flying dangerous though to make it truly unique. But, i'm still not a huge fan.
On the topic of flying mounts, I too do not see it as being a necessary feature.
In all my time playing EQ1 and Vanguard (before flying mounts were added), I do not recall feeling a void due to not having flying mounts. There are much more important things that need to be created before flying mounts should even be considered a priority.
On a side note, I do enjoy the occasional levitate spell : ).
Great post Xan!
My thoughts on AA: - I have to say I think I am the only one here that hates, I mean out right hates AA and what they did to EQ. Destroyed the game, destroyed balance, forced you to get them. Nothing, and I mean nothing destroys a game balance faster then an untrackable ability, that's supposedly optional. A 50th level character with no AA was no match for a 50th Character with 50 AA and it simply trivialized massive amounts of content, or worse, forced devs to make 50th level content so hard, you were forced to go grind the AAs to be able to complete it.
NO way I can stomach another EQ style AA game. Dreadful design.
I hate what AA's have become in EQ as well and mentioned it before, if you are going to have a system like it, make each point cost progressively more exp and cap the number of AA you can earn below the number of AA abilities; don't make it so players can have every one - they then have to make meaningful choices based on their class and game style. EQ's advancement started out great has become so incredibly bloated with abilities that don't have even have a noticeable parsable difference, it should be a precautionary tale of what not to do now.
Daoc did a great job with their alternate advancement (most of this is taken from wiki):
Realm Ranks and Abilities - Many powerful abilities become available through points obtained by killing enemy players in RvR. Abilities can range from a nearly full self-heal to uninterruptible spell casting for a brief time. Ability points become progressively more difficult to obtain as the character gains ranks in RvR. However, the difference between a high rank and low rank player can be immense even when they have equal equipment and are the same level, as each realm rank gained gives a bonus to all skills. Each realm rank has ten levels and there thirteen realm ranks. You couldn't purchase every available Realm Ability. It made your purchases meaningful.
Master Levels and Artifacts - The Trials of Atlantis Expansion brought a new depth to DAoC's PvE game. A wide range of ability lines, called Master Levels, are learned by completing a long series of quests. There eight different Master Level lines, with two being available to each class. Players are able to level up to Master Level 10 through the completion of ten encounters for each level. These encounters are classified as "solo" (to be completed alone), "group" (to be completed with at most a single group), and "battlegroup" (to be completed by multiple groups). These quests often require several hours and large groups to complete. This expansion also introduced the most powerful items, which often require a large number of players and a high degree of organization to obtain, in the game.
Champion Levels and Sub-classing - The Darkness Rising expansion allows players to learn some of the basic abilities previously only available to other class archetypes. For example, a Warrior can learn a rudimentary healing spell or a ranged direct damage spell. This ability to "sub-class" is unlocked as players acquire additional experience past level 50 in order to gain Champion levels. There are fifteen[13] champion levels and thus players are able to gain ten sub-class abilities.
While i am not a fan of the copying and pasting of classes from other games, as i have already expounded upon, i would like to see more than EQ style AA points and annual level increases for max level progression and advancement. I would love to see some hybridized version of all these great ideas from other games to make things different.
Edit: formatting, no offense, but the formatting post options on these boards suck.
Strykr619 said:
No flying? Sorry but no flying is a no go if you want a dynamic MMORPG. Your just going to limit the potential a game has to grow, now If you said "please make sure the flight doesn't trivialize the game" that I agree with.
dynamic mmo in relations to flying ? Even the great world of warcraft has acknowledged the world destroying aspects of flying. If you are looking for flying mounts this is probably not the game for you.
Strykr619 said:No flying? Sorry but no flying is a no go if you want a dynamic MMORPG. Your just going to limit the potential a game has to grow, now If you said "please make sure the flight doesn't trivialize the game" that I agree with.
I disagree with this. Flying mounts are not a requirement to having a dynamic MMORPG. I agree that flying mounts should be kept out of the game, at least for the immediate future, as it trivializes so much...especially the dangers of travel. In a group-oriented game with enemies not intended to be encountered solo, getting to and from certain places should be a challenge, similar to what we saw in EQ. The need to ask for someone to cast invis or invis vs undead on you, watching mob paths so you can avoid aggro, checking for see-invis mobs along the way. This was all part of the adventure. The addition of flying mounts can in part remove these great experiences for the sake of "easy mode", laziness, and unnecessary convenience. Not everything in MMO's should be fast and easy, especially when gameplay elements are sacrificed in exchange.
Exmortis said:Great post Xan!
My thoughts on AA: - I have to say I think I am the only one here that hates, I mean out right hates AA and what they did to EQ. Destroyed the game, destroyed balance, forced you to get them. Nothing, and I mean nothing destroys a game balance faster then an untrackable ability, that's supposedly optional. A 50th level character with no AA was no match for a 50th Character with 50 AA and it simply trivialized massive amounts of content, or worse, forced devs to make 50th level content so hard, you were forced to go grind the AAs to be able to complete it.
NO way I can stomach another EQ style AA game. Dreadful design.
Actually, you could say the same about any sort of progression. A level 50 character is no match for a level 60 character, and either the level 50 content will become trivial, or new content will have to be made, which will be hard enough to be challenging for level 60, that a level 50 will be forced to grind the levels to get to 60 to be able to complete it.
You can say the same about items. A mediocre-geared level 50 is no match for raid-geared level 50. Same about spells. A level 50 with only those spells that can be bought off a vendor is weaker than a character with all the spells he can theoretically have.
Following that logic, there would be no progression at all.
AAs ensure that there is some progression to look forward to. They also force the devs to make new content. They allow people to improve their weak points even if they can't get new items right now. They're good for the long-term.
Of course it means everyone has to keep up. It means if you stop grinding and come back in 6 months, others will be ahead of you. But as I said, the same can be said about levels, items, spells, crafting recipes, you name it. It's that kind of a game. And I love it :)
Strykr619 said:No flying? Sorry but no flying is a no go if you want a dynamic MMORPG. Your just going to limit the potential a game has to grow, now If you said "please make sure the flight doesn't trivialize the game" that I agree with.
Flying mounts are one of those things that sound great as an idea, but are extremely hard to balance. They allow massive content skipping. They're one step from the ability to just teleport from wherever you are to the dungeon where the group you just got in is. It's NOT good for the game.
At most, flying mounts like in original WoW (not personal mounts but automated public transit) could maybe be allowed if you already travelled there on foot, and they should cost a LOT for each use. Otherwise it's the same as free portals everywhere. Maybe even this kind of a flying mount is too much.
On flying - it shrinks the world, removes danger and creates the mechanism by which most content gets skipped right over. Just say no to flying mounts in Pantheon.
On AAXP - a game's longevity requires people always having a goal that improves their character. AAXP is an easy way to do that without raising level caps. Joining any MMO late in its life span will be daunting, but the various forms of character advancement need to be there at all times, or people will reach a "why bother" point and quit.
On travel grinds - yes please. The world should be big and feel big. I've written about it before, but I LOVED that raid guilds in the Velious era required members to have various travel achievements to join, like the Cobalt Scar dragon ring token, zone knowledge and a set of maps, etc. The world should stay big. If moving to a new spot takes 3 hours, so be it.
On soloing dragons and class development - shaman weren't the only ones, just ask an enchanter, necromancer or shadow knight. And not for nothing, but when AAXP gave wizards manaburn, wizards got the stout GFY from the devs for like 4 xpacs in a row after that. The MB hit squads and Old Seb AE festivals made everyone think wizards were god-moded, and the devs tossed them into a development abyss for years.
On legendary/epic quests - yes please. If P:RotF has epic weapons, like in the Kunark xpac of EQ1, every class should have low level things that play into the eventual high level uber item. A great example is the blood forged armor quest for SKs. I believe that was for helm, legs and chest and at the appropriate level (early 30s iirc), it was really good gear and had a pretty decent (10-12 levels) shelf life. It was hard, laborious (the named mobs of Cazic didn't pop all that often, and didn't always drop the item), and it ended up being needed to begin the SK epic sword quest. The quest NPC for Innoruuk's curse wanted to see your dedication and all that, and asked for your bloodforged armor. EVERY EPIC should be like that, and I'd be fine with level advancement being tied at every level to making sure some series of quests/challenges/services to your higher ups (guild masters in various cities) are completed. Like you collect certain items or faction and high level epic quests aren't even available to you until you have proven you are down with the cause. Epic quests should be exactly that..EPIC.
I am in the no flying mounts please camp aswell, as for the option of a flying taxi from zone to zone, that's something I am sorta mixed about, though i have played some games where I thought to my self, damn i'd like to grab a flying taxi up there just to see X spot from another angle.
AAXP was one of the shining points of EQ for me. Yes, it was a big bloated system and could probably be pared down substantially, but I dont know if I would do that. I loved that there were literally thousands of AA points required to max everything out, with some enchancements being more fluff and others being more class-defining. The urge to "max" everything was never really there for me. I usually picked up the AA's with the most bang for the buck first, then filled in the rest later. The fluff/quality of life AA's were always last on my list.
I much preferred the open AA system from EQ1 with gated access to enchancements by total AA points earned to the "talent tree" style AA from EQ2, where you can chose some, but not all. It just reeked of WoW talent tree, and went hand-in-glove with many other unpopular changes the game went through.
All in all, EQ1-style AAXP was a great way to advance your character without raising level caps. You could almost say it was vertical progression (increasing character power) executed horizontally (without raising level caps), if that makes any sense. I would loooove to see this in Pantheon, and would give people meaningful progression options and keep grouping alive well beyond reaching max level.
KCRiley said:What's a travel grind, by the way? Google's not really helping me here. :P
Using EQ1 as an example:
I am in Felwithe (high elf city, Greater Faydark) and I want to go to Erudin (erudite city, Odus). In pre-Nexus EQ, that was easily a 2 hour trip that had a few spots that could get you killed. Just running across West Karana was something that made most folks groan. It was the I-70 across Kansas of the EQ1 world, except with hill giants and griffons that patrolled the road.
Just crossing the oceans took 15-30 minutes, depending on the wait at the dock. That's why druid and wizard porting was an actual industry in early EQ1. Pay the coin, and the 30-90 minute run just took 5 minutes. And lots of people, myself included, paid that coin plenty of times.
Venjenz said:KCRiley said:What's a travel grind, by the way? Google's not really helping me here. :P
Using EQ1 as an example:
I am in Felwithe (high elf city, Greater Faydark) and I want to go to Erudin (erudite city, Odus). In pre-Nexus EQ, that was easily a 2 hour trip that had a few spots that could get you killed. Just running across West Karana was something that made most folks groan. It was the I-70 across Kansas of the EQ1 world, except with hill giants and griffons that patrolled the road.
Just crossing the oceans took 15-30 minutes, depending on the wait at the dock. That's why druid and wizard porting was an actual industry in early EQ1. Pay the coin, and the 30-90 minute run just took 5 minutes. And lots of people, myself included, paid that coin plenty of times.
And I recall many a Druid or Wizzy would often give free or pay-what-you-can tag-along rides to newb and those under lvl 10.
Venjenz said:KCRiley said:What's a travel grind, by the way? Google's not really helping me here. :P
Using EQ1 as an example:
I am in Felwithe (high elf city, Greater Faydark) and I want to go to Erudin (erudite city, Odus). In pre-Nexus EQ, that was easily a 2 hour trip that had a few spots that could get you killed. Just running across West Karana was something that made most folks groan. It was the I-70 across Kansas of the EQ1 world, except with hill giants and griffons that patrolled the road.
Just crossing the oceans took 15-30 minutes, depending on the wait at the dock. That's why druid and wizard porting was an actual industry in early EQ1. Pay the coin, and the 30-90 minute run just took 5 minutes. And lots of people, myself included, paid that coin plenty of times.
If that's what the OP is referring to, then I disagree with them. A trip across the world like that should take hours and be perilous. There should also be definitely some kind of player mechanic for transportation like Druid/Wizard ports that allow player services/interaction for travelling. YESSSSS.
Venjenz said:KCRiley said:What's a travel grind, by the way? Google's not really helping me here. :P
Using EQ1 as an example:
I am in Felwithe (high elf city, Greater Faydark) and I want to go to Erudin (erudite city, Odus). In pre-Nexus EQ, that was easily a 2 hour trip that had a few spots that could get you killed. Just running across West Karana was something that made most folks groan. It was the I-70 across Kansas of the EQ1 world, except with hill giants and griffons that patrolled the road.
Just crossing the oceans took 15-30 minutes, depending on the wait at the dock. That's why druid and wizard porting was an actual industry in early EQ1. Pay the coin, and the 30-90 minute run just took 5 minutes. And lots of people, myself included, paid that coin plenty of times.
And I happily took that coin. As a wizard, taxi service in EQ funded much of my pre-raid gear upgrades.
My Likes that I have loved about a good MMO:
1. Long exp gain. This allows you to see ALL content of approximate level in the world, not rushing through it. I notice players tend to do more dungeons and group stuff as well because of this... It also allows you to make more friends and do things together because more people will also be around same level and in same boat. Can't stand leveling 10 levels in a days time...
2. Dynamic events by GMs - Simply knowing that things happen in game on the fly makes you feel like you have to be online to experience some of this stuff. It is a GOOD thing to want to play and be a part of the on-line game world because it is evolving and dynamic.
3. Class Specializaton - Having classes with entirely unique abilities that makes them specialists in the world and creates their own sense of worth. It is stuff EQ made brilliant: SOWs, Clarity, Tanks, Heals, Slows, Mezzes, Mob Splitting, CC, all that good stuff. Relying on a group of friends or new friends is something non existent these days in MMOs. One class usually can do it all. What trend started that?
4. Placeholders and Rare Mobs: This was something I COMPLETELY loved in EQ. What kind of immersive world is it when you KNOW you can run over a hill and take out the named mob every 2 minutes for a quest. No I admit, some spawns were over the top and too long in EQ, but a happy medium is perfect. Make a player work and area to get what they need. Have tracking specialists be appreciated and have an edge. You really feel like you can run around and be in an ever changing environment when rares are not predictable. This is a great thing...
5. Epic Quests: Heck, not just for weapons either. Make quests last a long time to complete and make sure the involve different levels of combines, item drops, group dungeon crawls etc. to obtain the item. Do not make them RAID required though, keep it to group content at max expectation. Make sure the item can be obtained in a proper amount of time so it can be used appropriately for the level. I think most people love to plan and have their own way to organize stuff, this really makes a game immersive and fun.
6. No-Drop Cosmetic Lore Gear: My own selfish desire, have not seen this yet- This gear would be the only "cosmetic" option for players in game. If a player is lucky enough to randomly loot it around the world, level 1 through max, they would have an option to slot it for appearance for the appropriate slot. It would be class specific and match lore for that class. This gear would look special and be sougt after, but fairly rare. It would not look anything similar to Raid gear, but it would be it's own special look that would just as awesome. It could also have an inspected "lore" story to it that you and others could read. If a player ends up getting another item they think looks better in that slot, they simply hold onto the lore item in case they want to show it later.
7. Slow to Medium Travel: I am not a fan of bypassing anything and to be immersive, you should have to cover ground. Certain features that pull you to a group of friends, no issues. BUT, who the heck does not remember the trip from Qeynos to Freeport. There is a reason for this folks. Later in the game, I can see things opening up for raiding etc.. Not early or most of the way through though..
8. Flying or should say Gliding: One of the things that was awesome about Archeage is the gliders. It could be quested or evently earned, then head to high towers or cliffs for lauch and be able to glide to certain areas, this would be amazing. For those who have not experienced it, it is simply an amazing feature. This would be middle to later in game in my opinion.
9. Alternate Advancement Options: This was a GREAT feature that really allowed a player to customize / individualize their own character. I think eventually it should have limits so you have to choose certain specialties or paths to take on the spend. I also think it should be refundable for a price to reset as needed.
Dislikes about MMOs:
1. Mob Camps and Special Loot: So I love that you can get gear off named mobs, however, I think it would be a great thing to expand placeholders and an area that a named CAN spawn. I am not a fan of players being able to camp one spot 24/7 and call it their own. If the area is general enough, it opens it up for everyone who needs it, then it just requires to be lucky. I also hate named mobs that spawn every 2 minutes as that takes away from the dynamic / unique events of a good game.
2. Fast Leveling: No thanks, no challenge
3. One Character / Class does it all: Nope, don't want to play solo or I will, and it won't last long
4. Online Cash Shops: Hate anything you can buy outside of any game and use it inside. Immersion lost...
5. Instances: Great in few situations but keep it limited. Keep world open to ALL at anytime
6. Nothing but quests to progress: Typical of all MMOs today. Pantheon talks about other means and limiting questing, offering meaningful quests that take time and are of value. Love it...
7. Bad / Unreponsive Customer Service: Can I talk to a human please or get a response? Tough request but horrible issues in other games when you need to fix something. Would love to see a more personal approach to wants and needs as the new game progresses through its bugs.
8. Junk accessories that take away from realism: Example, a cute little cuddly teddy bear that runs around behind the player because it is one of their pet achievments. A little sunflower that chimes in with cute little baby talk every so often... No thanks!
9. Addons or Damage Meters: Please DO NOT give me a game where we all have to prove who's is bigger. Make it about team work and whether or not you get the job done or not. A good team gets it done and does not have to openly brag about which individual did what. Makes others feel bad... You either do it as a group or you don't, then work out the whys by helping others get better.
I am sure there is more but this is enough for now :)
Pyye
Pyye said:My Likes that I have loved about a good MMO:
I like a lot of the mechanics you listed here Pyye - Kilsin had started a game mechanics thread back in July with a lot of good responses, and I had posted a list in a much earlier thread back in 2014 of memorable "likes" from EQ that I had reposted in that thread. Pretty good read as you'll see a lot of similarities to your likes.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1993/mechanics-and-features/view/page/2
Haseno said:Strykr619 said:
No flying? Sorry but no flying is a no go if you want a dynamic MMORPG. Your just going to limit the potential a game has to grow, now If you said "please make sure the flight doesn't trivialize the game" that I agree with.
I'm not too big on flying mounts or flying myself. However, if it does exist, it should be very time consuming in order to achieve it. Flying allows people to bypass content and "the world." There is ways to make flying dangerous though to make it truly unique. But, i'm still not a huge fan.
I think flying ability should be an achievement you can only earn at the later levels, that way...at least there is time to explore the world..and not always take the fast track everywhere, after all why should the devs build us a beautiful world to "live in" if we can't partake in exploration and discovery...secret caves behind waterfalls..a hole you fall down and discover a new subterranean passage you didn't know was there. Map clicking kills that...and so do stationary teleporters hither and yon. Make these perks earnable...and for the advanced...there will always be those that need to hit level 50 same day as launch. (five minutes of fleeting fame..while everyone catches up) Personally I have waited for long years for a game like this, and want to take time to enjoy and smell the roses. Also gives you time for community and friendships in the long run. :) I have fond memories of EQ..and other old school games such as DAOC. Hopefully we can keep the character intact and not rush madly through because we're in such a big hurry..
