It is fairly common for horses to be given to players starting at level 10 . They are usually low-end mounts and only speed up travel a bit, but they do make traveling nicer. Normally, such as in VG, you cannot do combat on mounts and can even be thrown off your mount . The sprinters boots could be treated the exact same way a low end newbie mount is treated . It's not "game changing" to give level 10 characters a very basic mount, so having a buff from these boots that behaves in the exact same way as a lowbie mount is not game changing in my humble view.
Like Jason said, this is not game changing. It will help lower level characters level, those characters probably won't be racing for highly contested content anyway. Here's why: I am assuming that since many of the screenshots show spirit of the wolf that the game will include it and i am further assuming that it will be a player cast movement speed buff that will be castable at lower levels ala EQ. So the argument that it will give people racing for mobs and camps an unfair advantage really doesn't hold much significance since people will do exactly like they did in EQ and ask for spirit of wolf, in addition to other buffs, before adventuring out. Whatever advantage they would hold would be seriously mitigated once druids/shamans get spirit of wolf (assuming those classes will be the ones to get it) at whatever low level they get it, unless you plan on making it a high level spell only, that's the only scenario where these become "game changing." Furthermore, just make the movement rate less than spirit of wolf and there will be no real problem since people will want spirit of wolf over sprinter's whatever buff whenever possible.
I'm fine with taking away any of those "in game" perks that were handed out in the name of trying to get people to pony up cash. For me, the reward I really want is the game.
What I would like to see stay is some the perks that didn't have any impact on the game. For example, I paid enough to name an NPC. I really, really truly want to do that. I want one that has one of my kid's names as a first name, and the other kid's name as a last name - and their names work for it. Just something really cool for me and cool for them.
AND... I also want my alpha / beta privileges maintained! :)
a horse at level 10?!!?? What game was this in? I remember original EQ did not have horses until the 3rd expansion, Shadows of Luclin. I would much rather horses be an end game/high level/rite of passage symbol than them being available with such ease. I understand Sprinter's boots might make the world smaller than intended but it could also be a goal/measuring stick for people that are interested in the game. My original toon in EQ was a monk and he had no need of a horse or jboots or the like. Especially once PoP hit with the run AA enhancement. My later toon was an Ogre warrior and I still had no interest in horses or even jboots because it actually made the game easier. I can understand the desire that people have to acquire a certain in game item because of the benefits it has.
Here is an option, instead of giving those that pledge an appropriate level all of the items, give them a choice of those "game breaking items" or some other reward. Personally I want the Illusion clicky being an Ogre. I also want the explorer's backpack because I horde things in the game. I have no idea what the tunic of the planes is, I have no interest in pets, it is just something that will slow down my cpu/computer with needless graphics. Again I have no idea what the Ring of the Fallen is. Once those items get fleshed out or it is decided that those items need to be removed from the pledge levels then there needs to be some other reward or non- game breaking item as a reward for those that pledged. I know some people pledged a certain amount because of a specific reward/item that was given in that tier.
Reht said:
Like Jason said, this is not game changing. It will help lower level characters level, those characters probably won't be racing for highly contested content anyway. Here's why: I am assuming that since many of the screenshots show spirit of the wolf that the game will include it and i am further assuming that it will be a player cast movement speed buff that will be castable at lower levels ala EQ. So the argument that it will give people racing for mobs and camps an unfair advantage really doesn't hold much significance since people will do exactly like they did in EQ and ask for spirit of wolf, in addition to other buffs, before adventuring out. Whatever advantage they would hold would be seriously mitigated once druids/shamans get spirit of wolf (assuming those classes will be the ones to get it) at whatever low level they get it, unless you plan on making it a high level spell only, that's the only scenario where these become "game changing." Furthermore, just make the movement rate less than spirit of wolf and there will be no real problem since people will want spirit of wolf over sprinter's whatever buff whenever possible.
It's not game changing depending on what you use as a frame of reference. If Pantheon is VG like in providing mounts at 10, then no, it wouldn't be. But, discussion thus far on meaningful travel and combat has been compared to being more EQ-like. With EQ as a reference, the sprinter's boots would be more game-changing as Sogotp said horses weren't released till Shadows of Luclin.
And, to your second point, yes, you had SoW buffs in EQ at low levels in which you could beg/donate for from druids/shamans, but that is still much different than having a clicky permanently available. I know in early EQ I went without SoW much more than I had it if I was not grouped with a shaman/druid.
Wandidar said:
What I would like to see stay is some the perks that didn't have any impact on the game. For example, I paid enough to name an NPC. I really, really truly want to do that. I want one that has one of my kid's names as a first name, and the other kid's name as a last name - and their names work for it. Just something really cool for me and cool for them.
I definitely don't see any problem with this, as it's not an unfair advantage gained within the game. This (Name a mob, etc.) may be another option to present as well if the Sprinter's Boots are removed for those that have purchased.
the problem i am seeing with this thread is that all the nay-sayers of boots and tunic and such are all assuming that the boots are gonna be Jboots, the tunic is gonna have stats etc. instead of going all doom and gloom, everything is P2W. how about trying to brainstorm how to mitigate the P2W aspect?
also i would like to remind everyone that the practice of giving neat useful items away to the people who preoder a game is nothing new, it started in 2003 not long after EQ itself started. and i consider the pledges i made to be a kind of preorder. while i appreciate the thought behind the P2W hate (and i share some of it myself) i do not believe that rewarding people who helped get the game off the ground is P2W. while a free lifetime subscription is a nice thing, i personally am looking far more forward to increased invintory space or some other thing i will still be able to use after over a decade of playing the game.
Sogotp said:
a horse at level 10?!!?? What game was this in?
Vanguard among others. I was also given a camel I could ride at level 10 . Those mounts were very slow, but fun and faster than running.
edit : you could also buy horses and camels very cheaply at level 10, but mine was a game perk. Video proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l3ROcobjh4
Later on in VG though things got out of hand when the cash shop was put in. A lowbie on the Isle of Dawn could get super fast mounts and flying mounts. Randolf the flying reindeer was a freebie to everyone and flew for a good amount of time as well until his flying ability was taken away but then later put back in. I heard they took it away again and would only put the flying ability during Christmas time but I cannot confirm this.
In VG they even added free veteran perks that increased run speed such as a one per account speed bag. This was before the cash shop. Once the cash shop came on then you could even buy such bags for all your characters plus bags that increased your leveling speed. All this to me is way too much and should not be in Pantheon. A very slow mount for low levels I am not against. If you are against it, so be it, but it's not a game changer or breaker for me either way and I don't care that much either way.
I am going to second Gawd here.
I will straight up admit I am bias as I bought both the backpack expander and the bank vault. In the case of the boots I thought they were only cosmetic so it did not seem worth it (As I mentioned in previous posts I never played EQ or VG, so I did not know of Jboots before this thread).
However, I would like to point out that this precedent of allowing forum posters to remove or nerf items other people spent money on is very disingenuous! I definitely hope the Development team plans on communicating with those affected by any changes and be prepared to address their concerns?
DanF said:
I am going to second Gawd here.
I will straight up admit I am bias as I bought both the backpack expander and the bank vault. In the case of the boots I thought they were only cosmetic so it did not seem worth it (As I mentioned in previous posts I never played EQ or VG, so I did not know of Jboots before this thread).
However, I would like to point out that this precedent of allowing forum posters to remove or nerf items other people spent money on is very disingenuous! I definitely hope the Development team plans on communicating with those affected by any changes and be prepared to address their concerns?
DanF,
Please understand that this is a team decision, not a forum posters one. We had always been against "Pay to Win" items and had plans to address the Store as it was an issue for some of us on the team but the topic had been put aside due to other announcements etc. then we were alerted to the issue again, which we see is a good opportunity to now act on it, we will continue discussing it internally and act accordingly in due time.
As I posted on the first page though, we would never take something away that someone paid for without alerting them first, explaining why and organising some kind of refund or transfer to compensate.
I hope you understand we will do what is best for the game and our community members at all times and clearing this issue up now rather than later is much better for everyone involved.
As soon as we reach a decision we will let everyone know. Thank you for your patience. :)
I didn't say I wanted them to take everyone's stuff - I said I wouldn't be upset if they took my stuff :)
In the end, it's probably a very small percentage of the population that will have these things - especially if they discontinue offering them... and these things pretty much ALWAYS end up having a limited useful lifespan.
Speed increase? At some point I'm sure everyone will have something offered within the game that is faster.
Increased bank space? People would simply use alts for bank space, etc... if they ran out.
So not really the end of the world. What WOULD be an issue is if we logged in on day one - or on day 1001 - and suddenly see "Elixir of EXP - increases your experience gain by 30% for 3 hours" - or - "Your level gear set!" for sale on a store that exists after launch.
I hate to say this - but I'd be willing to concede even more as a pre-launch, get money we need to develop the game thing - if it meant the difference between having the game and not having the game. I guess you could say my gaming morals are for sale during development - within some reasonable limits.
It's not like, for example, they are saying "Pay $10,000 and get a max level avatar at launch!"
Kilsin,
I understand this is a team decision. I agree with and support you fighting against Pay to Win! So, I am not saying don't yank the item(s) from the store, and limit the effects of the items.
However, I am quite strongly emphasizing that this action needs to communicated directly with each of the buyers affected, and you listen to their concerns. Since this does involves people's money, but more importantly this issue involves keeping promises!
All of the pledge level's have a variety of different free items and enhancements as rewards. Each of which could be argued make the Pledger "Over Powered/Pay to Win," and could result in one or more threads calling for their removal or nerfing. I am very concerned about the precedent the above action sets, because any of these potential threads can reference this thread and say you did this before.
In summary, it is important that Pledgers get re-assurance that what they think they are signing up for, and/or what they upgraded their pledge for is really what they get once the game launches.
Edit note: I changed the first line, because after re-reading it came across implying that I doubted Kilsin's word. Which is definitely not the case! If anyone (Kilsin especially) was offended I am very sorry.
DanF said:
Kilsin,
I understand this is a team decision. I agree with and support you fighting against Pay to Win! So, I am not saying don't yank the item(s) from the store, and limit the effects of the items.
However, I am quite strongly emphasizing that this action needs to communicated directly with each of the buyers affected, and you listen to their concerns. Since this does involves people's money, but more importantly this issue involves keeping promises!
All of the pledge level's have a variety of different free items and enhancements as rewards. Each of which could be argued make the Pledger "Over Powered/Pay to Win," and could result in one or more threads calling for their removal or nerfing. I am very concerned about the precedent the above action sets, because any of these potential threads can reference this thread and say you did this before.
In summary, it is important that Pledgers get re-assurance that what they think they are signing up for, and/or what they upgraded their pledge for is really what they get once the game launches.
Edit note: I changed the first line, because after re-reading it came across implying that I doubted Kilsin's word. Which is definitely not the case! If anyone (Kilsin especially) was offended I am very sorry.
Dan - if you read my posts, I am in no way saying that the items be yanked and the pledgers be left paying for an item that won't be in game and thus lose their money ; rather, that any cash shop items that provides an in-game advantage are reviewed, removed, and another appropriate action is given in its place - whether that be a refund, assistance with designing an item, etc. as they don't fit Pantheon's vision.
Further, this has not been an issue that I just raised out of thin air - the shop has been an issue that I and others have raised since the Kickstarter. However, the topic I raised in this thread was the first that just "called it out" specifically, rather than generally saying things like "the shop is convoluted", "the shop needs serious work," "the shop needs to be easier to navigate," etc.
Therefore, the traction that was gained here I would argue is more of a positive reflection of the development team listening to community concerns and is us "truly" having a voice in this development cycle rather than a knock on the developers failing to deliver a promise.
Does that mean I would want knee-jerk reactions anytime a thread is created like this? No, most definitely not, but it is nice to see that serious discussion is taking place on what the best method is to resolve the raised issue.
*edited spacing
Ok everyone, this is an MMO message board...all this maturity and logical talk is a bit disconcerting!
Nice to see even with a wide range of views on this subject the community here is being very mature about it, and the devs are taking our concerns seriously.
Color me impressed
Deadshade said:
This.
My first question I asked myself when I found this thread was "Is that a problem at all ? How many actually bought it ?"
10 ? 30 ?
It takes 10 minutes to send a mail to all these people asking them what they would like knowing that these boots will have nothing to do with j boots.
Then remove the thing from the shop to avoid misunderstandings.
Good point here Deadshade and its why I wanted to create this thread sooner rather than later. I had been seeing that heart icon with a number after the boots in the shop (assuming those who have favorited the purchase) increase recently. Hopefully, at this time, it is a small number and it doesn't effect many, but as development progresses and the release date is more tangible - I would think the number purchased would have increased significantly.
Sevens,
This is no fair you all do not listen to me. Well fine I am going to go off and make my own thread: https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1644/pouting-discussion
Edit: This is meant as a joke, just case anyone was not sure.
I always thought my "Sprinter's Boots" allowed me to sprint without sound... I am not more powerful, just less noticeable.
I have remained silent on this issue, because the Pantheon's store bugged me so much. Much respect to Visionary Realms for doing the right thing. Once the new website & pledge area goes up, I will be upping my pledge level to Pantheon, as a sign of support.
.
Kefo said:
Just make the sprinters boot usable only in the cities and only if you are not in combat. You can get your shopping/banking done a little bit faster and they are disabled if you decide to start kiting guards or are kos and need to run past guards that would wipe the floor with you. By disabled I mean you can't click them and the buff is stripped the instant you enter combat. Pledgers still get their boots and it follows the store description but isn't a game changer in a big way
I don't disagree with this obviously as I would want the Sprinter's Boots gone and replaced with another option, but I don't think those who pledged for the boots would want them if they were this way - I know I wouldn't pay $30 dollars for a speed buff in a town. Maybe, it could be another option if someone still would rather keep their boot purchase than apply it to a pledge though (or another option).
Kilsin said:I personally like the idea of removing them and putting a J-Boots style quest line in game around mid to end game for some fun and for old times sake but not making the boots too fast, just a very minor boost to be convenient but not game breaking, using combat/damage to restrict them would be a good idea too.
I don't like the idea of selling anything with stats or boosts on it whether it's in game or externally. We want Pantheon to be challenging so I assure you we will not let it become pay to win under any circumstances.
I hope this statement stays 100% true because the crowd that this game is pulling is going to be 100% behind that, and if it changes I think in the long run pantheon will lose a LOT of followers and incoming money over gimmicky items to try to get a quick buck.
Patheon take a stance, no store bought items that are used IN GAME. Make the reimbursements like you already said you would do and create an epic quest in game that allows you to get "Sprinter's Boots" around 3/4 of the way to max level (again already discussed in your plans).
In my humble opinion, you can't talk about a special game that aims to be different and then offer a modern cash intake system that opens the door for "pay to win" later. Simply don't do any in-game items earned outside the game.
Again, 3D posters of in-game content, Shirts, Logo'd stuff, go crazy as I will certainly load up my game room if this game is everything I think it will be...
Is there any update on this?
Please tell me that people won't really be getting a mount, run speed boots and a freaking head start, among other things? This flies in the face of everything we've been told the values of this game would be. Many of us gave hundreds of hard earned dollars on the premise that this exact type of thing was antithetical to this game.
$5 - Headstart - Get early access to the game days before it launches.
$7 - Backer Icon - Let everyone know you backed Pantheon with this unique in-game nameplate icon.
$10 - Custom Title - Want to be a known as a ‘Sir’ or ‘Master of all Things Pantheon’? Why not do it with a stylish custom title? (subject to dev approval)
$10 - Wand of Random Illusions - Be the life of the party by changing your form with this special wand.
$15 - Exclusive Mount - Choose one of our special Kickstarter-only mounts.
$15 - Beta Key - Use it on your own account, or give it to a friend.
$15 - Autographed Poster* - Limited edition poster signed by the entire dev team.
$20 - Extra Bank Vault - Additional space to store all those extra goodies you obtained during your adventures.
$20 - Sound Track CD*
$20 - Digital Lore and Art Book
$20 - Starter Pack - Start with some currency and a few items.
$25 - Hero Essence Grab Bag - Open this mystery bag to win a random hero essence template.
$30 - Backpack Expander - Adds slots to your bags!
$30 - Pair of Sprinter’s Boots - Put a pep in your step as you travel the dangerous lands of Pantheon.
$35 - Bag-o-Swag* - get an “I am one of the Fallen” Mouse Pad, T-Shirt, and bumper sticker inside a Pantheon emblazoned bag to let all the cool kids know who is cooler.
$40 - Alpha Key - Use it on your own account, or give it to a friend.
$40 - 6 Months of Pre-Paid Game Time - Plenty of time to make your mark on Terminus. (limited to 1 per account)
$250 - Oranthel’s Strong Box of Power* - Backer Icon, Custom Title, Wand of Random Illusions, Exclusive Kickstarter Mount, Autographed Poster, Extra Bank Vault, Game Soundtrack, Digital Art Book, Starter Pack, Hero Essence Grab Bag, Backpack Expander, Pair of Sprinter's Boots, Mouse Pad, T-Shirt, Bumper Sticker, Cloth Map, and a physical copy the game inside a specially made container.
Well this post is a blast from the past, I still remember when the site had a store. I'm glad the store is gone. But I would also hope to see early head starts gone and other aspects removed. I really don't want to see people getting mounts and speed boots for backing a project. The early backers deserve recognition but not in a way that ruins the integrity of the game.
I wouldn't worry too much about those items. That was extremely early on in development and very few people are going to have those.
I don’t see an issue with super exclusive items that only the very early bakers get. The items will be no-trade and the people may not even be interested in Pantheon anymore. You’ll likely never even come across anyone with those items in the game.