Ok - this is a "food for thought" post.
When it comes to how large, or even how real the world feels, I think there is an inescapable tie to how many decisions the game makes me make about the virtual world around me on a constant basis - combined with enough "meat" to the world (size, content) to back those decisions up. And finally, it's not just that the game makes me make decisions, it's that it makes me use different thought patterns while making those decisions. (I'm in enterprise and solution architecture by trade - I spend a lot of time thinking about things like "Design Patterns" - and I think there is a relationship here)
I'll use perhaps the easiest category of content to emphasize what I'm trying to say... world size / world design - with 3 different but small examples.
Example 1
I'm standing in the city and I want to go somewhere new because I just completed a Rite of Passage that has opened up new content. I think it through, I ask around, and there are 8 different places that might be appropriate. Each having good points and bad points about it. That one gives me the least benefit but it's closest to civilization.... that one has huge benefits, but I'm stuck out in the wilds once I get there. Which shall I pick?
Example 2
I'm standing out in the wilds, and I want to get somewhere else out in the wilds. What is the best way to get there? If I go that way, it's shorter but more dangerous - if I go that way, it's way longer, but safer. How dangerous is dangerous, and how long is long? Which one is better for me right now?
Example 3
I'm standing out in the wilds, and I'm burdened by stuff I need to bank. Where's the closest bank? How do I get there?
None of these are earth shattering examples, but if you apply the examples to something in real life in the community / city you live in by putting yourself perhaps in a neighborhood you are not familiar with and then trying to think through those examples, you can see how they make your community feel bigger. AND - each of the examples focuses your mind in a slightly different way.
I think that the more opportunities Pantheon gives players to make these sorts of decisions on all sorts of different things - whether they be trade skills, diplomacy, whatever... the more expansive and real the world will feel to players.
If it's a first time experiencing Pantheon's virtual world, I think your examples are correct. Risk/Reward would play a large role. If zone A is 5 minutes away and offers average gear versus zone B that's 30 minutes away but offers good to great gear then you have a solid choice. If both zones are equal and the gear is equal then there really isn't a choice as far as risk/reward goes.
However, what made EQ feel large to me was simple and not always the "choices" in game. The meaningful travel as discussed in another thread was huge. No leveling zones were truly "far" away from a starting city if you wanted to level in the same area (i.e. Crushbone -> Unrest -> Mistmoore would get you from 10-low 40's); however, it's just that the major starting cities (Freeport/Qeynos/Kaladim) seemed to be very far away from each other. So traversing the world to group with friends in a new land seemed like a journey. I wanted to travel across Norrath to group with my high elf/gnome friends from Halas when I heard about this zone called Crushbone or Unrest etc. After experiencing the EQ journey once, the world seemed "much" smaller because it was familiar and druid/wizard ports were readily available. This was my fear with the "3 starting cities with ports" thread discussed much earlier because that journey would be lessened during that initial journey which can't be replicated.
After the first experience, I think players would go to what's familiar moreso than always what's convenient or even more rewarding. But, it's that first experience that needs to capture that fear/decision making/freedom etc. like you are explaining to recapture that large virtual world/immersion magic.
I also believe this is where the "rite of passage/achievement" system could be used as a benefit as well to recreate that bigger world if it captures the feeling of "wanting" to explore rather than "having" to explore. I explained my thoughts over that in Heiromonk's Achievement thread.
Yeah - that's what I meant when I said the game needed to have some meat - some depth. I think you could have a vast but extremely linear world, and it would feel small. Azeroth, for example, is actually fairly large - certainly large enough. But the game is very linear (no real decision making involved), there is fast travel, etc... and the world feels small.
Forcing decisions on me, the player, across the entire breadth of my play experience - from when I first log in on launch day, to 10 years later... if the game world is the palette, those decision points are a brush that help me paint my story within the game. What did I CHOOSE to do at each turn of the game, rather than "I followed the path that was pre-determined for me."
Wandidar said:
Yeah - that's what I meant when I said the game needed to have some meat - some depth.
Yeah - we are most definitely in 100% agreement and I like your description of a "wide" world. I had never explained it that way previously, but I absolutely agree.
Wandidar said:
Yeah - that's what I meant when I said the game needed to have some meat - some depth. I think you could have a vast but extremely linear world, and it would feel small. Azeroth, for example, is actually fairly large - certainly large enough. But the game is very linear (no real decision making involved), there is fast travel, etc... and the world feels small.
Great point. Another prime example of this would be SWTOR. The game has 18 planets to date! Wow! 18 planets? The game must be HUGE! *BUZZER* The vast majority of these planets you never see because the linear structure of the game keeps you within the confines of your your rat trap.
This still boils my blood >< I could go on for years about the disappointment. I need to take my leave *deep breath*.
Anyway, great conversation. Keeping the world vast is extremely important for immersion. We all know what PoP did to eq.
I think what I'm after with this thread goes beyond world size (even though I used that for my examples) - it's about making things seem larger by involving your player's minds constantly.
Here's a trade skill example (Yes, I know trades won't be in the game on day one)
Say within trades there is a recipe that you can use multiple different items for a single recipe component within that recipe. So say the recipe calls for potatoes. Well, low quality potatoes are easy to get - and you only get one for one yield when you use them and the combine takes longer. High quality potatoes though, they are harder to get, but a single high quality potato yields many finished products - and also because it's high quality, the combine takes a lot less time.
On the face of it, high quality potatoes are better, right? Now lets say there is another recipe you are trying to get that can only use high quality potatoes. You have enough low quality potatoes to make your items - but now you also have a few high quality potatoes. Do you use the low quality potatoes or do you sacrifice one of your high quality potatoes? Is combine time a factor you care about?
Across all layers of the game, I think making players make decisions will tie them to the game more, will make the game feel more alive, will make the world feel bigger.
Clicky maps (for me) make the world smaller and more 2 D. Having to find my way with map coordinates or some sort of rudimentary map...would remind me of vanilla EQ, don't have a problem with that. It made me more alert to my surroundings, and made me take note of landmarks, so that I could find my way back and forth.
Do we know if we'll get a personal port home that we might use once an hour? That would come in handy...unless it's not going to be a feature.
An answer to all those questions, asked by the OP, or perhaps a question is, how willing are people to try out exploration? If you explore you know the answer to those questions, trial and error, experience with the game over time, you would end up with the most appropriate answer to those questions, for you.
Perhaps the cartography skill is implemented here, where you can make your OWN rudimentary maps, which you can sell to others, or give away depending on what you like to do.
I am hoping that it will truly be an open world, without artificial barriers, invisible walls, or "I found the end of the world...walls".
No fatigue bars if you swim out too far in the ocean, allow exploration of the ocean depths, with of course an ability potion to breathe underwater that sort of thing.
How adventurous will people be? Will their curiosity be piqued? I think these questions go along with your questions Wandidar. :)
Questing makes a world, with the quest way point on map it makes a world seem smaller. it tells you where to go and makes the rest of your world ignored. I remember exploring whole zones for the mob I need for a quest. Modes of travel make the world seem smaller, mounts, flying mounts ,taxis. you can put as much meat into a world, only to have it missed by fast travel.