Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Dynamic Player vs Power Leveler via Brad's Achievement System.

    • 671 posts
    January 18, 2015 11:37 AM PST

     

     

    I listened to the whole Round Table discussion twice.

     

    I am not a Person who usually starts threads, or carries a torch, but I think their discussion was incredibly insightful and comforting. It is good to know the core aspects of oldschool Dungeons & Dragon's mentality of,  "here is our World, here are the rules... have at it.." of Brad's Vision is still intact & alive within Visionary Realms.

     

    The mere fact Brad is so insightful, that he is back-boning the Player Controller (ie: character hooks) by using alternate data sets. That is sheer player from within inspired, & this feature alone will add so much depth to Pantheon, for uncounted years to come. Kudos.

     

    Most of the later half of the podcast was about Brad's visage of the "Achievement System" (AS). I understand exactly what Brad means and intends, I just think he is using the wrong terminology, for his concepts. (Which are not new, he has placed these "achievements" in EQ & VG, before). I think "Achievement System" is a bad name for Brad's concept. And the idea of "tasks" is more from Brad's programming side, than from his roleplaying. Neither sound encouraging, or remotely describe what these systems are trying to do, or accomplish. Essentially as you would complete a task, you would achieve. So tasks are achievements, thus the name achievement system. But to the player community, these concepts get lost in the stigmata of names.

     

    So from a player's perspective & as the "Achievement System" would translates into the game and lore, would essentially (May I suggest) be called a "Character's Right of Passage" ..? (RoP)

     

     

     

     

    Dynamic Player

    VS

    Power Leveler

     

     

     

    Brad went into incredible detail, in an effort to give an understanding behind the reasoning and force behind the "achievement system". He explained several times different scenarios, of how it could play out. But in reality, he was talking about dynamic players who have a broad sense of the world.

     

    Dynamic Players have gathered languages, earned the trust of far away factions, have met far-off hermit that taught them a secret about "spider ink", and excitingly your friend knows how to imbue papyrus with magical properties, so they both can't wait to scribe something to see if Your spells will become more powerful, etc. (RoP)

     

    Dynamic players are well traveled players..  who are more likely to find the right means, to make spells that finally require reagents, than someone who has power-levels 20 past them.

     

    VS

     

    Someone, who is mostly concerned about max levels and wants to Power Level threw (bypass) all the earlier level content, just to gain max level..?

     

     

     

    That^ is the dichotomy in which Brad went to contrast his ideas.

     

    I'm embellishing a bit of my creativity, but based on Brad's concepts of character achievements. Often referred to as Tiers. Different classes always peaked, or ebb'd at different times, when a certain class finally got a class defining spell, and they just start to use/experiment with it. Meant new possibilities... to them, and those around them.  Never was lvl 20 a defining moment for all classes. The cadence is what mattered, not because you are lvl 20. FD for a monk... Or when a certain class finally got dual wield, etc. Or double attack, or quadruple attack....

     

     

    VS again... 

     

    a Character Player who doesn't even have those skill set, let alone any skill-ups in them. You have become better at skill(23) is easier to take when you are lvl 23, than 43. Skills will take a long time to level up, (think early eq) because you must use those skills, to get better at them. The more you use a skill, the more chances you have to get better. The more you use, the more proficient...  thus a better asset to groups, because you are well versed in your core skills of your class. Matter of fact, you can tell those who powerleveld, because they never had high skills. (Solo players often times had the highest skillsets.)

     

    But what Brad is also digging at/suggesting, is not necessarily artificial wall at a certain level. (ie: no more exp until you complete task), but there will be a toll to pay, for not seeking out your character's core abilities, until such late in his age/development. Brad's programming words/idealogy of "tasks" & "achieving", was His way of saying there are hard lines, that will have soft consequences. And there will be a toll on your character's development, for not going through your Character's right of passage.

     

    Through lore, Visionary Realms might induce a character sickness, that saps 20% exp, until you seek out a cure. Something as simple as that, is what Brad speaks of. There can be many mini & epic types of Right of Passages, withing the games achievement system for a character's ultimate progression.

     

     

     

    Do you want to be dynamic...?

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    This post was edited by Hieromonk at January 19, 2015 8:08 AM PST
    • 308 posts
    January 18, 2015 12:14 PM PST

    I also like the spirit behind the Achievement system, but i think that for a game that touts player choice this just seems too limiting. but i will wait for beta to see what the team comes up with. hopefully they can make it work.

    • 106 posts
    January 18, 2015 12:48 PM PST

    I think an achievement and right of passage system gives the game and lore purpose. In any great story there are certain steps the characters must take to drive the story and give it purpose. Frodo bringing the ring to mount doom from his perspective is a giant burden from start to finish. But this burdening task drives one of the greatest journeys and stories to ever have been written. If done right i think the game will have great story, and a great sense of accomplishment. Completing an epic quest in ever-quest was not just rewarding, it was a great accomplishment. The system wont limit the player but instead bring the player to new limits.

    • 106 posts
    January 18, 2015 12:56 PM PST

    Accomplishment is possibly the greatest reward.

    • 671 posts
    January 18, 2015 4:51 PM PST
    munge said:

    I think an achievement and right of passage system gives the game and lore purpose. In any great story there are certain steps the characters must take to drive the story and give it purpose. Frodo bringing the ring to mount doom from his perspective is a giant burden from start to finish. But this burdening task drives one of the greatest journeys and stories to ever have been written. If done right i think the game will have great story, and a great sense of accomplishment. Completing an epic quest in ever-quest was not just rewarding, it was a great accomplishment.

     

    The system wont limit the player but instead bring the player to new limits.

     

     

    Well said^.

     

     

    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    January 18, 2015 5:13 PM PST

    I'm loving the idea of re-naming it the Rites of Passage System.  Everybody good with this? 

     

    Hieromonk, awesome posts, and fantastic idea and reasons for re-naming the system!

     

    I like this blurb from wikipedia:

     

    rite of passage is a ritual event that marks a person's transition from one status to another.Rites of passage explore and describe various notable milestones in an individual's life, for any marked transitional stage, when one's social status is altered.


    This post was edited by Aradune at January 19, 2015 1:14 PM PST
    • VR Staff
    • 176 posts
    January 18, 2015 5:45 PM PST
    Aradune said:

    I'm loving the idea of re-naming it the Rites of Passage System.  Everybody good with this? 

     

    Hieromonk, awesome posts, and fantastic idea and reasons for re-naming the system!

     

    I like this blurb from wikipedia:

     

    rite of passage is a ritual event that marks a person's transition from one status to another.Rites of passage explore and describe various notable milestones in an individual's life, for any marked transitional stage, when one's social status is altered.


    Agreed - good work Hieromonk!
    • 453 posts
    January 18, 2015 5:59 PM PST

    Nice job Hieromonk ! Great ideas :)

    • 311 posts
    January 18, 2015 6:03 PM PST

    I'm good with it.

    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    January 18, 2015 6:05 PM PST

    Complete your Rites of Passage and Engage the World of Terminus!

    • 3016 posts
    January 18, 2015 6:08 PM PST

    Alrighta! Sounds good! :)

    • 753 posts
    January 18, 2015 6:30 PM PST

    I like Rites of Passage.  If for no other reason than it divorces itself from the standard thing everyone thinks of when they hear "Achievements." - but beyond that I think it fits what it sounds like the idea is quite well.

     

    To the concern that it would "limit" people -I don't think I see it that way (but I agree it depends on implementation) - For example, to get my epic weapon in EQ, I had to do certain things - to get keyed for Sleepers Tomb - I had to do certain things - to get keyed for Veeshan's Peak, I had to do certain things....

     

    Call those "things" tasks, rites of passage, whatever - they were events I had to go through in EQ - to get something I wanted. And ultimately, at every turn, that "something" was a game expander - not a game limiter.  Get my epic weapon, join the limited crowd of people who had achieved that.  Get keyed for Sleeper's tomb - join what is likely an even SMALLER group of people who achieved that - AND - get to go experience that content.

     

    I think a key for "Rites of Passage" will be just that sort of idea - to always have the Rite opening up something - OR - on being a progressive step toward opening up something.  The key will be for it not to feel like "Do not pass go, do not collect $200."  - Rather, I would want Rites of Passages to be something I looked forward to - couldn't wait to get to for my specific avatar / class... 

     

    A simple (and small) example from EQ would be hitting a level that got you some new spell - you had passed a threshold that allowed you some new power.

     

    Make them big - make them small - or just make them a step toward something big or small... that is what Rites of Passage (to me) should be.  Things we look forward to because they ultimately open something up, or make us more powerful, or more cool, or more rare.

     

    This DOES (again to me) mean that Rites - or some Rites - should be class specific.  Imagine FD being a Rite of Passage for the Monk in EQ.  Imagine earing FD being something akin to an epic quest.  Maybe you didn't HAVE to have FD... but getting it - that was something that set you apart.  Let you be more powerful.  Let you do more.  That would be a class specific Rite.

     

    Just my 2 copper.

    • 753 posts
    January 18, 2015 7:03 PM PST

    A question just popped into my head - I assume there will be mandatory and non-mandatory Rites of Passage.  For example, maybe there's a rite of passage that ultimately opens up the ability to enter a dungeon. 

     

    Maybe 30 levels after you could have done that Rite of Passage - you realize you really needed to.  Maybe within that dungeon is a drop you need but didn't know you needed 30 levels ago. 

     

    That Rite of Passage is now sending you back to compete for lower level content with lower level players...

     

    Do you see this as ever happening?

     

     

    • 453 posts
    January 19, 2015 2:31 AM PST
    Wandidar said:

    A question just popped into my head - I assume there will be mandatory and non-mandatory Rites of Passage.  For example, maybe there's a rite of passage that ultimately opens up the ability to enter a dungeon. 

     

    Maybe 30 levels after you could have done that Rite of Passage - you realize you really needed to.  Maybe within that dungeon is a drop you need but didn't know you needed 30 levels ago. 

     

    That Rite of Passage is now sending you back to compete for lower level content with lower level players...

     

    Do you see this as ever happening?

     

     

    Good question!

    Sort of reminds me of Psionist gestallts in VG which were monuments you could click on to learn abilities and they were scattered throughout the world. There was a mid level one that let you learn an ability that did an instant mind wipe of all mobs and took you out of combat and was my favorite psion ability. Problem was most websites had outdated info about that gestallt and people didn't go looking for it til later level, and at least a third of people didn't know it existed at all .  Once every couple days I would send a mesage on the psion channel asking if everyone knew about that gestallt and would take them to the spot it was myself if they didn't have it yet. 


    This post was edited by Jason at January 19, 2015 1:02 PM PST
    • 132 posts
    January 19, 2015 2:41 AM PST

    Rites of Passage sounds most exellent to me! :)

    • 999 posts
    January 19, 2015 7:59 AM PST
    Hieromonk said:

     

    But what Brad is also digging at/suggesting, is not necessarily artificial wall at a certain level. (ie: no more exp until you complete task), but there will be a toll to pay, for not seeking out your character's core abilities, until such late in his age/development. Brad's programming words/idealogy of "tasks" & "achieving", was His way of saying there are hard lines, that will have soft consequences. And there will be a toll on your character's development, for not going through your Character's right of passage.

     

    Through lore, Visionary Realms might induce a character sickness, that saps 20% exp, until you seek out a cure. Something as simple as that, is what Brad speaks of. There can be many mini & epic types of Right of Passages, withing the games achievement system for a character's ultimate progression.

     

     


    First, excellent break down Hieromonk.  My fear would not be so much "artificial walls" but more predesigned paths.

     

    Brad went into detail that he wanted gamers to experience the world.  However, if say Level 1-20 needs A-Z achievements in order to ultimately reach 21, people will follow the "achievement path" in order to reach 21 without having to be "stuck" on max level at 20.  To me, it doesn't eliminate grinding or power leveling, it just simply streamlines the process more that every character will need to follow a similar path (achievements A-Z) to not be stuck/penalized etc.

     

    Further, look at it from another perspective.  Say, there's 5 different possibilities for each "task" in the level 1-20 range.  Ultimately, people will find out what the most rewarding/quickest/easiest etc. tasks are for each class and will complete those instead of experiencing the more difficult tasks.  Consequently, it's "power-leveling" as Brad defines it all over again in a pre-defined format. 

     

    Basically, if people want to power-level, they will find a way regardless of the system, and creating artificial walls and predesigned paths won't prevent it, but rather, would potentially restrict the freedom of other players.

     

    I'm in the camp that instead of penalizing people for not doing something (i.e. restricting ability to level), reward the person by giving a reason to complete these epic achievement/rite's of passage quests.  I.e. evolving epic items (start out with a broken sword and ultimate ends in the fiery avenger), skills/spells, leadership abilities, alternate advancement abilities, hidden abilities etc.    It's really no different in that you still would get people to experience the world, but it would be the player's choice.  People would do so because they want to and would own the behavior rather than being forced to in a pre-designed path.  However, a non-forced path would still allow the player  to power level 1-50 by camping the same mob if they so choose and perhaps at the detriment of their character/ability.  But, that is the way that some people "enjoy" to play the game.  Perhaps after they saw other players gaining great items/skills/abilities they would then check out those quests because they "wanted" to.

     

    With that all being said, I realize there's a lot of details to be ironed out in pre-alpha, alpha, beta etc. and the idea is in concept mode.


    This post was edited by Raidan at January 19, 2015 2:09 PM PST
    • 753 posts
    January 19, 2015 8:42 AM PST

    If Rites of Passage is only deployed as a leveling gate system - then I think I'd agree with you Raidan - but I heard, or think I heard, something different.  I think I heard that Rites of Passage could be used for all sorts of things within the game, with level gating being but one of many.  For example, I think attaining some ultra-powerful class specific ability could be a Rite of Passage.

    • 43 posts
    January 19, 2015 11:42 AM PST

    Creating a classic MMO but stopping power-levelers, is sort of like saying we want to bring back the 60's but without the hippies. 

     

    Can we get a definition established here for power-leveling? To me it has nothing to do with zones or mobs, power-leveling would be about the amount of time you're playing. Given that, why is there an open assault on the people who want to play your game the most? If the definition of power-leveling is killing the same mob over and over until max level, please explain how this is possible since mobs that are too green in EQ stopped giving experience. Why is there so much effort being spent on solving a non-problem?


    This post was edited by Zircon at January 19, 2015 5:36 PM PST
    • 999 posts
    January 19, 2015 12:42 PM PST

    Funny but true analogy Zircon - and I agree that power-leveling (as defined by Brad) should be a non-issue.  I would define power-leveling differently - like Joppa did.  Being that power leveling (with EQ classes) as an enchanter/bard/monk nearly killing and memory wiping or a druid buffing with damage shields etc. for the lower level player to gain the exp from higher level mobs/quicker/more efficiently.  If you're wanting new players to experience content at that point you could make an argument that they would miss the journey/experience if it was their first playthrough.

     

    One of the aspects of EQ that I enjoyed (which I think has been inappropriately defined as camping one mob or power-leveling) that Wandidar has touched on is the "wide" leveling ranges.  Zones like Gukbottom you could level from 35-50 and you progressed through the zone at multiple "camps."  I may have started out camping 10 mobs at the zoneline with a group, but progressed to bigger/better camps such as the Savant/Supplier to the Executioner/Sage and ultimately to the Ghoul Lord.  I gained a real sense of achievement once the whole dungeon could be conquered over a period of time/levels rather than having run-through dungeons of current MMOs that are capable of being completed on the first attempt even at the minimum level range.  In EQ, I often would leave a zone such as Guk once parts of the content became trivialized to come back to explore the deeper parts once I gained adequate experience/level.

     

    I didn't mean for my point 1-50 camping to be taken literally, but more in the EQ sense of a progression through the zone to multiple "camps" similar to a Gukbottom.

    • 671 posts
    January 19, 2015 12:44 PM PST
    Raidan said:
    Hieromonk said:

     

    But what Brad is also digging at/suggesting, is not necessarily artificial wall at a certain level. (ie: no more exp until you complete task), but there will be a toll to pay, for not seeking out your character's core abilities, until such late in his age/development. Brad's programming words/idealogy of "tasks" & "achieving", was His way of saying there are hard lines, that will have soft consequences. And there will be a toll on your character's development, for not going through your Character's right of passage.

     

    Through lore, Visionary Realms might induce a character sickness, that saps 20% exp, until you seek out a cure. Something as simple as that, is what Brad speaks of. There can be many mini & epic types of Right of Passages, withing the games achievement system for a character's ultimate progression.

     

     


    First, excellent break down Hieromonk.  My fear would not be so much "artificial walls" but more predesigned paths.

     

    Brad went into detail that he wanted gamers to experience the world.  However, if say Level 1-20 needs A-Z achievements in order to ultimately reach 21, people will follow the "achievement path" in order to reach 21 without having to be "stuck" on max level at 20.  To me, it doesn't eliminate grinding or power leveling, it just simply streamlines the process more that every character will need to follow a similar path (achievements A-Z) to not be stuck/penalized etc.

     

    Further, look at it from another perspective.  Say, there's 5 different possibilities for each "task" in the level 1-20 range.  Ultimately, people will find out what the most rewarding/quickest/easiest etc. tasks are for each class and will complete those instead of experiencing the more difficult tasks.  Consequently, it's "power-leveling" as Brad defines it all over again in a pre-defined format. 

     

    Basically, if people want to power-level, they will find a way regardless of the system, and creating artificial walls and predesigned paths won't prevent it, but rather, would potentially restrict the freedom of other players.

     

    I'm in the camp that instead of penalizing people for not doing something (i.e. restricting ability to level), reward the person by giving a reason to complete these epic achievement/rite's of passage quests.  I.e. evolving epic items (start out with a broken sword and ultimate ends in the fiery avenger), skills/spells, leadership abilities, alternate advancement abilities, hidden abilities etc.    It's really no different in that you still would get people to experience the world, but it would be the player's choice.  People would do so because they want to and would own the behavior rather than being forced to in a pre-designed path.  However, a non-forced path would still allow the player  to power level 1-50 by camping the same mob if they so choose and perhaps at the detriment of their character/ability.  But, that is the way that some people "enjoy" to play the game.  Perhaps after they saw other players gaining great items/skills/abilities they would then check out those quests because they "wanted" to.

     

    With that all being said, I realize there's a lot of details to be ironed out in pre-alpha, alpha, beta etc. and the idea is in concept mode.

     

    Thank You (all).

     

    Like I had said, Brad's achievement system is nothing new. It has been a part of his Vision since EQ. The only difference is the Brad is choosing to define and vocalizing aspects of that Vision. Personally, I think Brad had it right all along (his Vision remains the best in the industry) & even though he is willing to discuss, I kinda wish he would've never announced "his system" and just implemented it, leaving all of us to wonder what Rite of Passage is in store for each of us. Character achievements has always been an internalized concept of Brads. Understand, his vision is solely responsible for an industry term, "Epic Quests"...  

     

    Honestly, think of how some of those Epic Quests started...  with some non-descript NPC fishing by a lake, etc..    it was utter oldschool. 

     

    Those quests were parts of Brad's vision, to tie your character into the world he now lives in. That your character, is a CHARACTER in a living breathing novel... such as MiddleEarth(Tolkien)/Midkemia(Feist)/Four Lands(Brooks). That is how Brad has always tried to portray his games, and why so many roleplayers love them. Something as simple as a travel bag, or pouch is not trivial in EQ.

     

    A magic pouch on the other hand, is worth traveling for, if the rumors are true...  I mean, could you imagine.. a pouch, that no matter how big an item is, it shrinks to fit. How many of you want to see if it's true, might take a month...?

     

    Later in a game's life-cycle, things like that are trivialized, but still a right of passage for all who go threw the motions.

     

     

     

    So looking forward, I can see things like a Monk's feign death as being somewhat similar to a mini-epic... being one of the quintessential RoP of that class...

     

    I think Visionary Realms(VR) will do a great job of using lore and implementing RoPs into each class.... however they choose. They are endless opportunities here and RoPs are going to be a fun part of the game. I can almost (in some aspects) liken it to diplomacy in Vanguard, where mini-achievements broaden your character's opportunities.(vs stagnant gameplay)

     

    Raiden, I wish to discuss this in detail, but not nec the actual RoP mechanic, but the opportunity to expand on the idea of Right of Passage. But do understand, the way I think Brad will implament it, RoPs place no restriction on the player, only on the character.

     

    Again, in time I'd like to go further into detail on this, because I think if you look at a list of "skills" the EQ Warrior had...  now imagine if 50% of those skills & a few class-defining ones... were ONLY attainable from learning them from indiscriminate NPCS..? (Hard to find).  Instead of the same trainer every 3~5 levels...? Not all RoPs not need to be over-burdensome.

     

    How many times in EQ did someone "ding!", then ask to leave the group because he wanted to run to city, to get is new skills/spells..?  Well, this time (Pantheon), he might ask to take these guys on a new journey.

     

     

     

     

    I the lands of Terminus, what Right of Passage, beholds You...?

     

     


    This post was edited by Hieromonk at January 19, 2015 5:36 PM PST
    • 999 posts
    January 19, 2015 4:39 PM PST
    Hieromonk said:
     

    Like I had said, Brad's achievement system is nothing new. It has been a part of his Vision since EQ. The only difference is the Brad is choosing to define and vocalizing aspects of that Vision.  

    Later in a game's life-cycle, things like that are trivialized, but still a right of passage for all who go threw the motions.    

     


    I snipped your comment a bit and I both agree and disagree with your first comment regarding EQ.  I do agree that the rites of passage (RoPs) sound similar/same to epic quests or class specific quests that EQ had, and like you said, just vocalized and it's really just semantics that RoPs = Quests.  Where I disagree though, and what I believe makes a huge difference is you didn't have to complete the epic quest or any quest if you chose not to in EQ or even VG.  I do think it's a very neat concept and I am admittely critical by nature, so, I'd rather iron out or discuss potential problems prior to implementation than launch it and be reactive.

     

    Your second point that I snipped would be another issue.  Not only would the required RoPs become trivialized by expansions, etc., but after starting alts, unless those RoPs are all truly unique (and not meet a different NPC at a different zone), they will become monotous and just a tedious quest with a different name.  That's why I believe the freedom to choose is a better idea.  I realize many different types of RoPs will be implemented and some will always be class defining and not trivialized.

     

    Again just a few thoughts and I realize it's very early and it was just annouced - so I will be watching the development of the RoPs and am more than willing to change my stance.

    • 43 posts
    January 19, 2015 9:00 PM PST
    Raidan said:

    I snipped your comment a bit and I both agree and disagree with your first comment regarding EQ.  I do agree that the rites of passage (RoPs) sound similar/same to epic quests or class specific quests that EQ had, and like you said, just vocalized and it's really just semantics that RoPs = Quests.  Where I disagree though, and what I believe makes a huge difference is you didn't have to complete the epic quest or any quest if you chose not to in EQ or even VG.  I do think it's a very neat concept and I am admittely critical by nature, so, I'd rather iron out or discuss potential problems prior to implementation than launch it and be reactive.

     

    I'm with Raidan on this one. I want to hear more about it, but I'm remaining critical.

     

    To the example of getting feign death through RoP for a monk, no matter what you call it, that is a mandatory quest. So a monk who is leveling with a group of friends can't just go back to the skill trainer and get feign death, no, now he has to do a world tour just to get one of his skills? Blah. This really sounds like a good idea to you guys? 

     

    The vision should be to encourage player travel without forcing their hands. The reason people stayed local in EQ was because travel was severely discouraged by design, intentional or not. I'm not suggesting a POP system, teleport scrolls, flying transports or anything of the sort, but if more player traveling is a design goal then the effort should be to make getting from A to B in the game not so burdensome. The wrong approach, in my opinion, is to tell people if they don't travel they can't get levels, skills, adequate gear etc. The balance of travel to reward in EQ was heavily skewed towards staying put as long as it remained possible (XP was still moving). It had nothing to do with "power-leveling". There is nothing someone wanted in EQ more than a change of scenery here and there but most times it just wasn't feasible.

     

    For the record I agree with promoting traveling and considering it a design goal. I just don't agree with any forced approach. If I could easily XP in a different dungeons around my level with more ease that would be a huge plus for me. If all the dungeons had different interesting lore and visual appeal that would keep me moving from place to place certainly. I disagree that all players must go to all zones and see all content, but I understand from a programming point of view you want the users to use every feature and appreciate all your work, especially on this project.

     

    I think my points made but I'll just go a bit further. When I'm looking for people in a group in EQ, there are many players who would fit perfectly in the group but they are just on the other side of the world. For example, I have a group in Oasis and they're in Crushbone. I would look to make it so anyone LFG has reasonable means to get to a group that wants them without trivializing travel altogether. Players porting each other in EQ was a great idea but the level requirements were just too high. 


    This post was edited by Zircon at January 19, 2015 11:37 PM PST
    • 999 posts
    January 19, 2015 9:10 PM PST
    Zircon said:
     

    I'm with Raidan on this one. I want to hear more about it, but I'm remaining critical.

    To the example of getting feign death through RoP for a monk, no matter what you call it, that is a mandatory quest. So a monk who is leveling with a group of friends can't just go back to the skill trainer and get feign death, no, now he has to do a world tour just to get one of his skills? Blah. This really sounds like a good idea to you guys? 


    You shared my thoughts there exactly.  Unless the implementation is extremely creative/unique/innovative, I can't imagine a design that is not a burden on the player's gaming experience rather than a benefit.  I'll be happy if I'm proven 100% wrong though.

    • 753 posts
    January 19, 2015 10:46 PM PST

    I understand the point Zircon and Raidan - for me though, I'm sort of in the camp of starting out things like travel too cumbersome in alpha / beta and then finding out what the right concession is to be reasonable.  I'm in favor of player controlled means to expedite travel to a certain extent (druid, wizzy ports) - with those things not obviating travel, but reducing it to some extent.  I'm also OK with classes being able to call players to them (like Warlocks could do in WoW). 

     

    I fear (and I'll admit it may be irrational fear based on seeing what has happened in too many games of late) starting out with saying "we have to make something easier" without ever trying it a little harder.  To me, that is often a slippery slope to demands to ease up everything.

     

     

    • 118 posts
    December 19, 2016 8:15 PM PST

    The disappearance of rights of passage from western society has created much of the problem that modern men face in trying to build a positive male identity.  A virtual RoP could suffice in the absence of the real thing.  If well done; it would provide real, and significant existential value to those who pursue it.  This is, I think, at the heart of what we all want from Pantheon.  It is probably why I have given so much to the project.  Giving younger players a right of passage experience will make Pantheon much much more than, "just another MMO."  Those among the rising generation that haven't been turned into special snowflakes will recognize this value---even if they don't have a name for it---and will chomp at the bit to share it with their friends.  The same as my friend who wanted to share EQ with me.  This is why Pantheon absolutely has to be hard.  Psychologically, we need ways to distinguish ourselves among our brethren.  I mean to do what I can to help you succeed in that endeavour.  I hope the staff at VR all become millionaires for the effort.  If you succeed in implementing what I described above, you will deserve it for your service to humanity.