The main purpose of this thread is to discuses how you everyone thinks harvesting should be handles and, more importantly, why.
The secondary purpose is to clarify any questions you may have about the poll, located here:
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/polls/view/213/harvesting
As for my opinion I will just copy and paste my post from the think tank (edited):
In my own personal opinion I think it should be done similar to final fantasy XIV a Realm Reborn, but with one big difference.
In ff14:ARR each person only saw their own nodes. I thought this was awesome because it got rid of the needless competition that is in most other games. It was a frustrating experience that created needless animosity between players due to real or perceived resource stealing, something that can be just as frustrating as kill stealing. I have on more than one occasion left a party because there was someone that stole (or at least I thought stole) a resource from me in that party. At the same time I have been kicked from groups for the same reason. But if each person (or party for party harvesting) saw their own nodes this would eliminate that issue all together. There were two downsides though:
1.) Clustering.
In ARR you went to area X and could harvest thousands of mats. with ease. This I did not like as it made it too easy and it was far less rewarding when you got something rare, because it wasn't really rare. To fix this I would have nodes spawn much as they do in EQ2,VG, and similar games, but each node would still be uniquely accessible by you/your party. This way the markets don't get flooded.
2.) Did not foster cooperation
In VG if a group harvested, the yield was much higher. Since nodes were somewhat scarce this was a great reason to work with others and added a whole new area of the game for grouping. The solution is to add this or something like it.
Now all we need is crafting groups... but, that is for another thread.
Other ways it could be done is a variation of the instancing system in place in Dungeons and Dragons or in Vindictus where when you leave town and the area is you/your parties own. And in games like Vindictus when one person harvested, everyone got some. That part I like, but my guess is most people (myself included) want at least somewhat populated zones.
I look forward to hearing from you guys!
EDIT: I also took this opportunity to see if I could rate my own thread. Seems I can. Feels wrong.
Harvesting and Crafting are close to my heart and after spending the last 7 years in VG from Beta to Sunset, I would really like to see a harvesting system similar to VGs where the nodes/trees were visible for everyone and you could group harvest for extra yield.
Allowing the nodes to be contested but then locked to the person/group who started harvesting, promoted healthy player interaction and community spirit, this also allowed for communication and another way to make new friends doing the same things that you enjoyed.
The yield was determined by your skill level and the harvesting gear you were wearing which was only crafted or quest rewards, which also supported the crafting sphere and economy.
I have played FF14: ARR and it personally wasn't my type of game although it had great concepts and similar mechanics, I still prefer the EQ/VG type systems and mechanics which is what Pantheon is being based on and I feel it's important to remember that since a lot of people are here only because of Brad and the fact they played and loved either EQ and/or VG and are wanting to see similar systems and mechanics in place for Pantheon.
In saying that though, I really want to see an in depth crafting and harvesting system in Pantheon! So any interest shown in this area is great in my opinion :)
Gathering/Harvesting/Fishing was something I always kept skilled up as I leveled up. Group harvesting in VG was kinda cool, not really necessary but was a fun little touch. Also having different grades of harvesting gear in VG was also a nice little touch. Something like that isn't high priority for me but I wouldn't complain if something similar were there. Admittedly I was always too lazy to do the tradeskill and diplomacy stuff though until I was maxed on all my toons and didn't have anything else to do, then I maxed those out as well. What I liked about harvesting is with the exception of skinning you didn't have to level up your adventuring to do it, and you could sell what you harvested on the global exchange if you didn't need the stuff for yourself or for your friends/guild.
Kilsin said:
Harvesting and Crafting are close to my heart and after spending the last 7 years in VG from Beta to Sunset, I would really like to see a harvesting system similar to VGs where the nodes/trees were visible for everyone and you could group harvest for extra yield.
Allowing the nodes to be contested but then locked to the person/group who started harvesting, promoted healthy player interaction and community spirit, this also allowed for communication and another way to make new friends doing the same things that you enjoyed.
The yield was determined by your skill level and the harvesting gear you were wearing which was only crafted or quest rewards, which also supported the crafting sphere and economy.
I have played FF14: ARR and it personally wasn't my type of game although it had great concepts and similar mechanics, I still prefer the EQ/VG type systems and mechanics which is what Pantheon is being based on and I feel it's important to remember that since a lot of people are here only because of Brad and the fact they played and loved either EQ and/or VG and are wanting to see similar systems and mechanics in place for Pantheon.In saying that though, I really want to see an in depth crafting and harvesting system in Pantheon! So any interest shown in this area is great in my opinion :)
Group harvesting was awesome. It made me excited to harvest again, rather than it just being something I had to do. It is something that I would love to see. FF14: ARR did do away with competition (something that was a great source of animosity when I played.), but it did so in a way that didn't foster cooperation. That is why I would like to have nodes only seen by a party but the yields are better if you group harvest. Then again, when it comes to having more positive reasons to group I would guess most are for that.
I remember being so excited at how efficient it was vs solo. Sadly though I also remember the competition. I remember a cave that was small but had a lot of nodes. One time my and my party were harvesting there for hours. But we were not the only one. There were other groups there as well. A lot of people started to get pissed off to the point that some members of the groups started to harvest nodes solo just to prevent the other group from getting any so they would rage quit. This happened more than I care to admit. When I saw someone or a group there (or any other harvesting run spot) I would ask to join up, but most didn't like sharing the loot and I could not efficiently compete since they almost always had SoW or the like.
But when I was with friends it was the single most joy I have gotten from harvesting in any game, ever.
Yokoshima said:
Kilsin said:
Harvesting and Crafting are close to my heart and after spending the last 7 years in VG from Beta to Sunset, I would really like to see a harvesting system similar to VGs where the nodes/trees were visible for everyone and you could group harvest for extra yield.
Allowing the nodes to be contested but then locked to the person/group who started harvesting, promoted healthy player interaction and community spirit, this also allowed for communication and another way to make new friends doing the same things that you enjoyed.
The yield was determined by your skill level and the harvesting gear you were wearing which was only crafted or quest rewards, which also supported the crafting sphere and economy.
I have played FF14: ARR and it personally wasn't my type of game although it had great concepts and similar mechanics, I still prefer the EQ/VG type systems and mechanics which is what Pantheon is being based on and I feel it's important to remember that since a lot of people are here only because of Brad and the fact they played and loved either EQ and/or VG and are wanting to see similar systems and mechanics in place for Pantheon.In saying that though, I really want to see an in depth crafting and harvesting system in Pantheon! So any interest shown in this area is great in my opinion :)
Group harvesting was awesome. It made me excited to harvest again, rather than it just being something I had to do. It is something that I would love to see. FF14: ARR did do away with competition (something that was a great source of animosity when I played.), but it did so in a way that didn't foster cooperation. That is why I would like to have nodes only seen by a party but the yields are better if you group harvest. Then again, when it comes to having more positive reasons to group I would guess most are for that.
I remember being so excited at how efficient it was vs solo. Sadly though I also remember the competition. I remember a cave that was small but had a lot of nodes. One time my and my party were harvesting there for hours. But we were not the only one. There were other groups there as well. A lot of people started to get pissed off to the point that some members of the groups started to harvest nodes solo just to prevent the other group from getting any so they would rage quit. This happened more than I care to admit. When I saw someone or a group there (or any other harvesting run spot) I would ask to join up, but most didn't like sharing the loot and I could not efficiently compete since they almost always had SoW or the like.
But when I was with friends it was the single most joy I have gotten from harvesting in any game, ever.
I have shared some similar memories harvesting lol
I will always remember the count down to harvest in VG, everyone (max of 6) would space themselves out around the node, then all check we had the right harvesting tool equipped and do a macro/typed or verbal count down so everyone started at the same time and we got the most yield possible, there are so many funny stories of people messing that up!
I do agree group harvesting is fun and I think an important part of a group centric game like Pantheon as just being able to group up with strangers or friends to work together to achieve a goal is what helps build communities :)
I also think that having that opportunity for competition is what leads to some great behaviours and experiences in game, not everyone is going to share but the majority will and that shows empathy and kindness that rub off on others and help to make our mature community what it has been in EQ and VG compared to other games with more solo centric content and more selfish gameplay/grouping mechanics where there is little risk vs reward and more rewards for doing just about anything.
Kilsin said:
I do agree group harvesting is fun and I think an important part of a group centric game like Pantheon as just being able to group up with strangers or friends to work together to achieve a goal is what helps build communities :)
I also think that having that opportunity for competition is what leads to some great behaviours and experiences in game, not everyone is going to share but the majority will and that shows empathy and kindness that rub off on others ..
I hope you are right, because at least on the RP server that was not the case. More often then not people fought tooth and nail for them. People with groups or speed buffs would taunt others in hopes of making them give up. Honestly the only times I ever got any real amount of resources was when I was in the only group there or I was the only one there. Only thrice, in my first 4 months playing, did I see groups come to an agreement. Oh and I harvested most of the time I played. I like small guilds, but I was always the higher leveled one so I harvested while I waited for them to catch up. The only times I have ever come to an agreement with someone else and I was alone was when I was buffed with a speed buff (and they weren't) or had a friend with me so I had the upper hand. More than half the time if I and one other person was there solo they wouldn't even respond to a /tell or /say asking to group up. Beyond that if there were say 8 nodes they wouldn't even try and split them. No surprise really. So I'd have to call in a friend or two and force them to share or GTFO. My friends always came when I asked and vice verse, but I didn't like pulling them away from what they were doing to do it.
Way, way off topic but I have to ask... Jason, why did you feel that my "ignore this, double post." was worthy of a thanks for this useful post? My first thought is you were mocking my mistake. Now however, I think you are (at least to some degree) a robot, and you just do it automatically. So don't think I'm not on to you.
EDIT:
I see you are a robot too, Freyja.
Yokoshima said:
Way, way off topic but I have to ask... Jason, why did you feel that my "ignore this, double post." was worthy of a thanks for this useful post? My first thought is you were mocking my mistake. Now however, I think you are (at least to some degree) a robot, and you just do it automatically. So don't think I'm not on to you.
Muahaha while it's true my wife has called me a machine ....well... I won't get into that .... I guess maybe I just admired the font you used or something LOL
Your own, personal nodes? Seems a bit like instanced content, which I thought Pantheon was not about. Harvest nodes should be FFA, but I like the idea of them being locked once you start harvesting. Group harvesting is also a great idea, although I did not do that often in VG.
I would like specific areas for harvesting. Mountains/caves for ore and stones, forests for lumber and so on.
Sarim said:
Your own, personal nodes? Seems a bit like instanced content, which I thought Pantheon was not about.
It's a great deal different. Everyone shares the same instance. Everyone can see one another. The only difference is only you/your party can harvest and even see your own nodes.
To put it another way say you changed a game file so that when you go into a new zone it plays your favorite song rather than the default music. It's pretty much the same thing.
I'm a VG fanboy so I say VG style. And yes it was funny when someone got click happy in the group and started it on 1, then everyone jumped in almost 1 at a time after till it was just all messed up and usually it was on an apw boss or a rare node. Yes it irritated me when I had a certain route through my nodes and someone also had the same route but camped it and came on half way through and you showed up at it like? wtf I know this should be back up by now and eventually catch him after seeing all the nodes have been taken. So VG for megave crafters more to do and harvesters.
Well Yokoshima,
I have to say that your post scares me, along with your poll. I do not like anything you have suggested, because it all seems too complicated for something that is a non-issue. You are essentially making an issue/problem about something, that has never had one.
Perhaps it was the games you played, with bad game mechanics, etc..? Resource stealing..? (lol)
The concept of harvesting, is the same concept of exploring... first come, first serve.
That doesn't mean that those who find materials first will have the skill, or profession to harvest those mats, or even want to. But you have to be actively seeking them out (VG/EQ/AA), & where you go and what you find is dependent upon you.
Harvestable mats are part of the game world, generated by mother earth, not generated by some game-god with YOUR name on it. The concept of harvest nodes that only specific person can see is laughable, just as funny as playing a game where YOU could only attack/see the mobs intended for you, with your name on it. When you play a MMORPG, you play on a level playing field, & fight not only the game world, but each other for prominence. Looking for, and fighting for raw materials is what makes a game have depth. And frankly, I never played a game where harvestables where all in one area and everyone is fighting for them. Each mat, has it's own story... ore is found in caves and thus a "clustered" material, where strawberries (rare) and barley (uber common) can be found as your walking along a road. Each mat has it's own ecosystem, that sports different form of contention to the populace.
You stated (Yoko) "...I thought this was awesome because it got rid of the needless competition that is in most other games".
Needless competition..? If you need iron ore and other people need iron ore.. how is iron ore needless..? How is getting it, needless...? If Crafter's are in need of iron ore, then it's price will go up.. thus more contention for those resources. The answer isn't to have the game engine spawn individual nodes with people's names on it (lol), but to have a robust system in place with skill checks and plenty of node types. (see ArcheAge/Vanguard/etc.. for standard harvesting practices.)
The frustration you had & "needless animosity" between players.. is because they could be elsewhere, doing another resource (perhaps swimming the coast looking for pearls), but instead most likely trying to harvest easy access materials, along with everyone else.
No reason to forgo a traditional resource/harvesting system. Your fears are unfounded.
I really enjoyed VG's style of harvesting as well. But what if Pantheon built upon that? I'd like to see the group aspect of harvesting evolve. A player could still solo harvest in the same manner as they did in VG. But instead of a group counting down to 1 or whatever and then all trying to click on the node at the same time, what if they all had their own role to do sort of like a mini game?
Harvesting wood for example. A single player could chop away at a tree and harvest his own stockpile. But a group of players could work together to chop entire trees down and take them into town to a sawmill to produce large amounts of wood. One player could chop the tree down and while they are chopping down the next tree, the other players are trimming these trees to make them easier for transport and then they take these by horse and carriage to the nearest town.
Fishing. A single fisherman could fish tell his little heart desired but a team of fisherman could travel out on a boat and hunt down bigger fish. As a group they could use a combination of fishing poles, harpoons, nets, etc in conjunction to form a fun mini-game which would result in larger amounts of resources.
Mining for metals. A single player could continue to do as before and simply mine ore deposits near and around mountains. But a group of players could go deep into a cave and as a group perform even another mini-game where players had to work together to harvest large amounts of ore. Each player would have their own role possibly such as one or two player working the light so the other players could see. A player could use some form of detection to 'sniff' out the hard-to-find ore deposits and continue to do so while another mined the ore.
So on and so forth. This is all in very raw form, it would definitely need good thought to flesh it out better so that it would be fun and worthwhile. I strongly believe that for Pantheon to truely be 'next level' that it has to evolve EVERY area of gameplay in the MMO format. Brad stated that he wants Pantheon to be around for many years, and a harvesting system as in depth as this wouldn't have to happen at launch. This is something that could come in an expansion or an update down the road. If Pantheon is to live on and grow for 10 years I would think that simply just adding new levels and spells and new zones and new AAs and etc etc would not suffice. I'd like to believe new mechanics and features such as in depth harvesting mini-games for groups is something that could expand on the game's life. And it wouldn't have to be anything TOO complex, just something more fancy than a group counting down to 1 and then all clicking 'harvest'.
I guess this comes down to the type of systems used. Will it be open resource gathering or sort of like GW2's character based nodes or personal resources based in a paticular zone. I am in favor of the GW2 but that can get pretty boring but you are always going to find materials. On the opther side of this is open resources. I can remember bot hell in WoW and other games when this was used. I have many hours of hunting bots down...LOL
There are pro's and Conns to to both types and a third option of mob drops. That wont work for eveything but its there for discussion.
Good post thought!
Ox
I'd like to see some way of making you 'find' crafting materials. Not have them simply there, poking out of the ground, but have areas in which you are likely to find a node or whatever you want to call it, and require the player/group to search the area. Some kind of skill check then determines what you find, and how plentiful it is.
For example, in order to find metals of some kind, you'd have to be in the right area (a mine, mountainous place or whatever) and then use your 'metal sensing' skill to find a node to harvest from. Then it would show, and depending on its size/color you could tell what it was, and how much it might yeild. Groups working together would have a higher chance of discovering more and larger nodes, and harvesting more materials from them. Nodes being locked once a player/group starts to harvest it.
Or if you're looking for fish, you sail out on your boat and use your 'sense fish' skill to find where the fish are, it giving various amounts of feedback to guide you closer, and the shoal you find to fish from is of a size and color that indicates how many fish are in it and what type (some being unique to an area perhaps).
Though things like animal pelts, should naturally be gained from, well, animals. Likewise fish from a body of water and wood from trees!
Yokoshima said:Sarim said:
Your own, personal nodes? Seems a bit like instanced content, which I thought Pantheon was not about.
It's a great deal different. Everyone shares the same instance. Everyone can see one another. The only difference is only you/your party can harvest and even see your own nodes.
To put it another way say you changed a game file so that when you go into a new zone it plays your favorite song rather than the default music. It's pretty much the same thing.
its more like if i entered a zone and there are 12 orcs that only *I* could attack, and another 12 only *you* could attack.
i can understand why people liked the ff:xiv way. but it was essentially semi-instanced content. iirc you could not even see the nodes unless you were in the appropriate harvesting mode.
. XIV was a very 'safe' game. no open pvp. run past aggroed mobs with impunity. you couldnt even send tells in an instance group because you 'might be mean' (quote from the lead dev.). that all said, it is not a bad game for what it is, but systems of that nature just dont seem to fit pantheon.
I've never been a big crafter but from what I've seen, I like SWG harvesting system. Not only does it allow random locations of resources but also different quality of resources that produce different qualities of items. Players had tools they could use to help find resources.
In EQ terms, say you could build a backpack out of any type of animal hide rather than only grizzly bear skin. However, grizzly bear skin makes the best backpacks and cat skin makes the worse and wolf skins are in the middle. Then you have different qualitiy of those skins. So a high quality wolf pelt makes the best medium quality backpack but a low quality wolf pelt makes the lowest medium quality backpack.
This system would really open up a big combine matrix and allow players to get skill ups even on lower quality items. In EQ you often had to find the super rare items just to even attempt a skill up.
I do harvesting/crafting in every MMO I've played...and always regret it afterwards :) The only game that I felt did it decent was Vanguard due to the making of consumables, housing, guild housing, and boats. It was the only game that I felt you ended up crafting something worth while. I would be happy if they just copied VG version of harvesting and crafting.
That said, unless I'm mistaken, the current plan is only to have a limited EQ style crafting available at launch. In EQ, the crafting mats came from mob drops and vendor purchases so I'm guessing no harvesting in Pantheon. I'm sure anything is up to change based on community input within reason, but as much time and effort goes into harvesting/crafting systems and the fact they rarely result in possitive feedback, I'm not expecting harvesting to make it in at least at launch.
I hope pantheon gets away from the Node Runs that are all to common in MMO’s, personally I feel those just sets the atmosphere for Bots due to the monotony of it. My favorite system was in Horizon's ( I believe it was), where instead of Nodes being scattered out in the world at not so random spots, there were mining areas that Had Nodes Somewhat densely packed where crafters could gather to collect their materials.
I found this system to be much more social and engaging experience that often lead to both friendship's and crafter contacts, with conversions to pass the time between spawns, whereas the Node Runs I rarely met anyone that didn't feel like a Silent competitor to the next node.
I’d love to see something like what Horizon's had taken a step further where Mat Gathering for minerals could be done in a real mine that the deeper you went the greater the collection rate, but the greater the dangers from nefarious monsters were.
I tried several games that had a 'harvesting node system'. A couple of issues I noted:
1) The nodes respawned constantly and always used a very simple pattern of respawning. So basically players would just run around in circles and scoop up thousands and thousands of resources.
2) The nodes typically had perhaps 3 different items, maybe with one being more uncommon or rare than the the others, but overall, were so simplistic in their "loot" table, that there was just not enough variety of raw inputs.
Why is the above a bad thing? Eventually the market crashed for each of the resources, basically being listed for free (like 1 copper piece). Not only did this close off a potentially profitable gathering system for people to participate in, it also provided a basically endless stream of very cheap raw materials to crafters, which again lowered the prices and barriers to entry for craftering finished goods.
A good in-game economy relies upon the concept of scarcity.
The best resource system I have participated in was the one found in Star Wars Galaxies. Not only did you have to make an effort to locate the materials, but the materials were widely varied, had a substantial number of different qualities, and often times would only be available for a very limited window of time and then perhaps not show up again for weeks or months. This created a lot of incentive for players to invest their time into finding good resources and also protected the value of a crafter's end products, as every crafted item was unqiue, based upon the resources used and the skills applied.
I have a dream...
I dream of a much richer sort of tradeskill/ harvesting mechanism. I wish it would really matter, and really have realistic weight.
I'd like to see draft animals and wagons... and if you go harvesting, you really need to intend to harvest. Which means you need to be ready. You may be able to carry around 500 herbs, but 500 iron ingots?? This is something that games have always ignored, this idea that you can carry hundreds of pieces of ore with (at most) being reduced to a walk instead of a run.
Wagons can be stolen, so adventurers need to protect them.
I think only very, very limited and specific points of interest should have "phased nodes". Examples are NPC farms and the ability to get some food from the farm. Because these would be extremely rare and harvesting from them would be also very rare, I could see allowing them to be phased.
Outside of that, I don't want to be made to group in order to harvest.
The problem with making everything require a group is that, when a person has 'down time', we're left with nothing to do. Tradeskilling, crafting, and harvesting allows us something to occupy us. ALSO, it doesn't create problems between the 'skillers and the "trade skilling sucks and is boring" people.
I like the competition for resources, sometimes it's frustrating if the server is crowded, but besides that it creates healthy competition.
That said, I like the idea of group harverst, so there's no competition inside the group. But group harvest should yield the same amount of resources as solo harvesting, that way you have the option to solo or group.
