I had to just accept another policy in order to log in here. Updating us on the fact that our pledges are good faith donations and while you will do your best to deliver, it's not guaranteed.
My dudes, we don't want your money, we jest because we know it tugs at the heartstrings of any successful business. Really though we just need a map and some honesty, you know damn well you are way past pre-alpha in development and ideas. It seems technically hard not to be in alpha.
The biggest question that gets me is why or what is so secretive that you can't come out with a developer video that outlines what the hold-up to alpha is and a best guess date. We need a nail.
How many people is that, 100 - 1000 players? I know you see the complaints, I see more and more each day, I feed them if not start them. I feel cheated and shafted not because you have my 250 bucks, but because you held my interest hostage for this long just to hide behind a Pre-alpha door treating fans as if they are the issue when all they ask for is clarity.
I know you're not a thief, this game will be amazing if it's not crushed by poor communication. What's the longest you've paid and waited for a product? You've given Alpha testers nothing.
My first alpha was delivered to me in the mail on discs for SWG. Very smooth until it got in a hurry. I paid 250 to Alpha Camelot unchained. When I logged in all I was was a square that could shoot other player squares with more squares standing on square buildings. No sound, or chat box. We did this for weeks upon months, net-code had to work. That developer is scary but super nice.
It's expected its pre-alpha. It got a bunch of sounds art and textures and may have slowly moved into alpha. I drop out just before beta not to spoil it all.
I paid 500 bucks to experience the whole Crowfall mess. I mean they had Ralph Coster -(2 next to Brad, and I love the way Perkins talks. Not a skill thing but passion)- help design an eve-like crafting system in a fantasy setting, I need to be grounded but botched the ability trees and dumped the whole system, followed by the eternal kingdoms and my 500 bucks worth of legos. My teacher hated me for run on's, go figure.
Alpha, been there done that. This is not that. Do better not everyone gets the chance.
Oh if only the minds of yesterday could work with today's technology.
This is fair feedback and we take it to heart. Communication is something that we really want to work on, because we haven't always done an awesome job of it. We are doing some restructuring of our comms and media and we think that everyone will be pleased with the result. Stay tuned, my friend.
I hope that the re-organisation will help, especially the new format of the "road to alpha" that was talked about in one of the last streams. It would really be nice to see a "percentage of completion" on different sections of the game (AND see that increase from one newsletter to the next ;)
Also, it would be nice if we could hear more about the classes that haven't been updated in a while. Months (years?) ago there were some early iterations of paladin and ranger and warror...what happened to them? There are other classes like summoner or druid that we know require(d) implementation of the network stack (or something)...but I never heard a good reason why the other three classes I mentioned are not seen in at least a basic form in the streams by now...
That said, I do like the monthly updates you guys are doing...please keep em coming!
They've said that Alpha is reached when they have all core game elements in and they've acknowledged that other games have been far looser with their definition of Alpha. Part of this is because many people want to play the game and those people will use alpha as a preview. Thus, to keep from creating a negative impression, Pantheon won't move to Alpha until they've ready.
I agree with this approach since I think an early Alpha will lead to lots of negative press,.
The Roadmap to Alpha is a good effort to communicate where development stands and what's still needed, though it does have some limitations. Some items, like creating a banking system, are fairly specific and limited in scope, while others, like all the art assets, are massive in scope and the Roadmap doesn't really convey much useful information.
I don't think the suggestion to post percentage done is very practical or informative since it will seem like an arbitrary number without them showing the tasks from which they derive the percentage.
My suggestion is to break down the categories that are huge into subcategories. Zone Art should list each zone. Classes should be specific to each class. Races specific to each race. As it stands now, some categories, like zone art, will be in progress for most of the rest of development, so seeing it sit in "In Progress" tells us nothing and fails to show the work being done. Tell us what zones have been completed and which are currently being worked on.
Counterfleche said:They've said
A lot, and gone back on a lot. Regarding what constitutes pre-alpha, release dates, and reframing the problem ("It's not us, it's the people who are expecting things!") I'm glad the discord got opened to everyone and they finally are now experiencing exactly what I told them they would. I come here every once in awhile for a laugh, but they got my money so they can laugh right back.
"and gone back on a lot."
This is not really fair. Firstly, it implies intentional prevarication where what happened was simply a change of direction - perhaps in reaction to unexpected external developments. Secondly it implies failure to follow through on commitments where what you are referring to are most likely just predicitions or expectations.
((takes off fanboi hat and resumes the long snooze while waiting for alpha))
justdrop said:Counterfleche said:They've said
A lot, and gone back on a lot. Regarding what constitutes pre-alpha, release dates, and reframing the problem ("It's not us, it's the people who are expecting things!") I'm glad the discord got opened to everyone and they finally are now experiencing exactly what I told them they would. I come here every once in awhile for a laugh, but they got my money so they can laugh right back.
What, exactly, are they experiencing now that Disocrd is open that you said would happen? I see no noticable difference and I read the forums daily.
I'm glad the discord got opened to everyone and they finally are now experiencing exactly what I told them they would.
I'm also curious what your thoughts are on this? I have noticed an influx of people, and some are even beginning to engage with the community there. I've actually seen nothing but positive engagement, it's been quite pleasent.
dorotea said:"and gone back on a lot."
This is not really fair. Firstly, it implies intentional prevarication where what happened was simply a change of direction - perhaps in reaction to unexpected external developments. Secondly it implies failure to follow through on commitments where what you are referring to are most likely just predicitions or expectations.
((takes off fanboi hat and resumes the long snooze while waiting for alpha))
You ate up the lies, but I didn't. PA was supposed to be 3 phases (a month, 3 months, 6 months) with phase 3 having been extended indefinitely until "they're happy with it." They absolutely failed to follow through on this. Going back to sleep would imply you woke up in the first place.
Ranarius said:I'm glad the discord got opened to everyone and they finally are now experiencing exactly what I told them they would.I'm also curious what your thoughts are on this? I have noticed an influx of people, and some are even beginning to engage with the community there. I've actually seen nothing but positive engagement, it's been quite pleasent.
corechamber said:How many people is that, 100 - 1000 players? I know you see the complaints, I see more and more each day, I feed them if not start them.
Seems reality disagrees with you.
justdrop said:dorotea said:"and gone back on a lot."
This is not really fair. Firstly, it implies intentional prevarication where what happened was simply a change of direction - perhaps in reaction to unexpected external developments. Secondly it implies failure to follow through on commitments where what you are referring to are most likely just predicitions or expectations.
((takes off fanboi hat and resumes the long snooze while waiting for alpha))
You ate up the lies, but I didn't. PA was supposed to be 3 phases (a month, 3 months, 6 months) with phase 3 having been extended indefinitely until "they're happy with it." They absolutely failed to follow through on this. Going back to sleep would imply you woke up in the first place.
I don't recall VR ever announcing that specific time line. Do you have a source for this?
You've said VR is lying, which means intentional deception. Do you have any source for this claim?
Personally, I think it's far more likely that a small team attempting to do the hardest thing in game development on a small budget simply runs in to challenges that cause delays. But then I'm also a patient person, so I haven't let the long development bother me.
It's been my experience that many of the people who push the hardest for games to be released as soon as possible are also the same people who leave those very same games the quickest when the rushed game doesn't live up to expectations. I don't mean to imply you or anyone else is one of these people--I only mention this because if Pantheon wants to succeed, to make this long wait worth it, they need to not succumb to pressure and release before its ready.
I would rather wait 10 years for a game that I will play for 10 more years than wait five years for a game that I will play for 6 months.
I'd have to dig if it's still on here at all, but it was stated over 5 years ago at this point. PA was advertised as Winter 2017 https://youtu.be/6RuyuiBkrX8?t=1182 (didn't end up happening until the next year) but here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FXXE4IWu6k - is a link to Cohh's PA3 video which should at least let you know they had 3 phases scheduled since there's never been an announced, planned or posted PA4.
Regarding what you're happy waiting for, that's nice. Five years of pre-alpha. Five years? Five. Years.
"You ate up the lies, but I didn't"
Is English your first language? We seem to have a dramatically different view of the meaning of words.
You may or may not be right on the details but for purposes of this discussion I accept that you are. It is absolutely certain that many things were supposed to happen, but did not. Many times we were told that things would happen, sometimes relatively soon, and they did not. You can stop beating this poor dead horse because all of us that were there at the time and many that were not there know this for the truth.
The word "lie" and similar words have a specific and well defined meaning in English. The meaning is this - to say something knowing that it is not true. To say you will do something knowing that you will not do that thing. In some contexts - to say a thing with conscious disregard for whether that thing is true or false.
Manifestly VR has revised its development plans dramatically, more than once. Manifestly development has been far slower than VR said they planned it to be. Manifestly this is unfortunate from our perspective. Manifestly this is unfortunate from *their* perspective.
I tend to take at face value VR's statements that they determined that the changes in plan were for the good of the development process, whether or not they actually worked out that way. I accept that they are entirely capable of error, and for that matter have made quite a few over the years. It would be shocking had they made no errors - we could add them to the pantheon and worship them as Gods.
If you have any reason to suspect that they *lied* - as distinct from changed their minds or predicted the future inaccurately - please share it with us. Otherwise content yourself with unhappiness over the pace of development. One of my favorite aphorisms - because it is so very apt. Never attribute to malice what can be adaquately explained by mistake or imperfection.
Seems reality disagrees with you.
I'm still confused. Not trying to argue, just asking for your opinion. You quoted someone else's opinion and stated it as "reality" when I was asking for your sincere opinion on it. I'm in the discord every day, I read every post...I see a ton of conversation and engagement. I'm not claiming that every single person is always "happy," that would be ridiculous. What I'm claiming is that it's a good place for conversation for anyone, including those that have questions and concerns, as well as those that just want to have fun chatting live about the game with other fans.
@justdrop Perhaps you should go read the entirety of dorotea's post, where he outlines the definition of Lie in the English language and then explains that while VR may have failed to complete a plan that they had made and told us about, there is no evidence that they deliberately misinformed anyone knowingly. They were also very careful to explain that any predictions made were just predictions and should not be held to as solid dates. Also any features discussed were not set in stone and that things could change as time went by.
It's quite fair for you to be doubtful if you'd like, but please don't assume that something is a Lie just because you have doubts or that it ends up changing as time goes by.
justdrop, perhaps you didn't notice the "Community Guidelines" post stickied at the top of this forum. It's easy to overlook. You would benefit from reading it.
https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1595/pantheon-community-guidelines
Particularly this rule:
General Rules to follow- The following will not be tolerated:
1) Personal attacks, flaming or insulting other forum members and/or Visionary Realms and/or Staff
And when someone posts the truth, of course it's against the rules. This company will never see another dime from me.
The worst thing in my opinion is that whenever i decide to visit the forums (twice per year) its always the same arguements and the same conversations. Meaning in 5 years either the people partaking havent learned anything, or the people giving the information havent adjusted how thats done. Hopefully this new update in September helps that process.
Also, as silly as it is to judge a book by its cover, its hard to take anyone as more than a troll when agressive arguements and attacks are all done within the first 100 posts of their forum career.