Forums » Crafting

Crafter's Roundtable: Death, Durability, and Repairs

    • 1688 posts
    July 28, 2020 12:59 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Nephele said:

    I was envisioning like a 1% chance per item or something, so yeah, RNG.  I get what you're saying about it being unpredictable though.  I'm not sure I have a really good response for you there.  Would we rather that durability be predictable, boring, easily mitigated, and ultimately feel like a meaningless tax?  Or would we rather that it be less predictable, potentially harder to deal with, but feel more special and meaningful as a result?  It's going to inconvenience players either way - which is sort of the point of it, really.  So which kind of inconvenience is better?

    The problem with percentages is that statistically nothing prevents you from hitting that 'low chance' every single time.  And when you look at an entire server and the number of people dying, the number of people hitting that magical number is noticeable.

    So yeah, I would prefer the boring, predictable nature of a set reduction in durability, per death, where until the item reaches 0% durability it's effectiveness is not affected.

    Gotcha.  Being honest, (and this is just for myself) but if durability ends up being a predictable number that ticks down X% on death, then I'm just going to say right now that I think it should only be repairable in-town, at an NPC, and nowhere else.

    Reasoning:

    - If you let crafters do it for free, people feel like they have to be a crafter to repair their own gear.

    - If you let crafters make "repair kits" for use in the field, you trivialize durability altogether (no one goes anywhere without repair kits on hand).  Not to mention that I don't really want to see crafters being looked at as repair kit dispensers from an economy perspective.

    So, as with many other things - if durability is going to be a thing, I think we should evolve it from previous MMOs.  Otherwise - I think there's probably better and more interesting money sinks that can be implemented.

     


    This post was edited by Nephele at July 28, 2020 1:00 PM PDT
    • 9 posts
    July 28, 2020 1:03 PM PDT

    If what we want is a crippling durabilty/penalty system another option is once a item falls below %100 of its durability it loses magical effects instantly but the armor amount however would slowly fall. In order to restore its magical capabilites this may be a task in itself. As any stats that provide an increase in effects other than protection such as armor or Stance/poise are considered "Candy/treat" stats. Only those who save these very important items for specific fights or hard encounters. You wouldnt want to brandish these rare items in public tempting other players to kill you for being jealous. If we clarify the importants of these stats instead of putting them on every item then we gain the holy grail effect. Which is when items that have stats other then armor are so rare it gives them importance.
     

    "This is a seperate topic i dont want to go down the rabbit hole with"

     


    This post was edited by Jigantor at July 28, 2020 1:05 PM PDT
    • 2054 posts
    July 28, 2020 1:22 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    Gotcha.  Being honest, (and this is just for myself) but if durability ends up being a predictable number that ticks down X% on death, then I'm just going to say right now that I think it should only be repairable in-town, at an NPC, and nowhere else.

    Reasoning:

    - If you let crafters do it for free, people feel like they have to be a crafter to repair their own gear.

    - If you let crafters make "repair kits" for use in the field, you trivialize durability altogether (no one goes anywhere without repair kits on hand).  Not to mention that I don't really want to see crafters being looked at as repair kit dispensers from an economy perspective.

    So, as with many other things - if durability is going to be a thing, I think we should evolve it from previous MMOs.  Otherwise - I think there's probably better and more interesting money sinks that can be implemented.

    And I would whole heartedly agree that such repair should only happen in towns.  It ends up being yet another mechanic that keeps players going back to cities routinely, which is a good thing.

    • 9 posts
    July 28, 2020 1:23 PM PDT

    @Nephele - i Agree and like what your put forward with only one objection and one minor thing, i dont think the system should be that forgiving. I imagine it should feel like a crippling setback when you die. To make you pay attention next fight/ lean forward or straighten your back - go get a mountain dew because $&@& just got real and this isnt gonna be easy. The thought if i die now i might hinder my groups progress so i better start paying attention mindset. (I do like your naming system highlighted below however). Players will end up naming them percentages so i feel they might as well have a percentage pop-up text next to "dented" when you scroll over it like 65% or something. I also agree that you shouldnt be able to repair while adventuring, that just feels way too easy like modern games today that cater to the typical audience.

     

    - There is no durability number or percentage.

    - Each time a character dies, worn items have a very low percentage chance to become "damaged".

    - A "damaged" item loses some of its effectiveness.  Think of the damage condition as a debuff on the item itself.

    - Example damage conditions:  "Nicked blade".  "Dented".  "Chipped".  and so on.

    - Damage conditions can be removed in one of two ways:

    1) Visit an NPC repair person and pay them a sum of money.  How much money depends on the power level of the item and the damage condition applied to the item.

    2) Have a player crafter repair the item.  To repair the item, crafters need the appropriate repair material which is consumed during the repair.  Repair materials needed depend on the power level of the item and the damage condition.


    This post was edited by Jigantor at July 28, 2020 1:25 PM PDT
    • 1423 posts
    July 28, 2020 1:43 PM PDT

    Nephele said:... Being honest, (and this is just for myself) but if durability ends up being a predictable number that ticks down X% on death, then I'm just going to say right now that I think it should only be repairable in-town, at an NPC, and nowhere else.

    Reasoning:

    - If you let crafters do it for free, people feel like they have to be a crafter to repair their own gear.

    - If you let crafters make "repair kits" for use in the field, you trivialize durability altogether (no one goes anywhere without repair kits on hand).  Not to mention that I don't really want to see crafters being looked at as repair kit dispensers from an economy perspective.

    So, as with many other things - if durability is going to be a thing, I think we should evolve it from previous MMOs.  Otherwise - I think there's probably better and more interesting money sinks that can be implemented. 


    Couldn't say it better, agree with all points.

    • 1831 posts
    July 28, 2020 4:18 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    Nephele said:... Being honest, (and this is just for myself) but if durability ends up being a predictable number that ticks down X% on death, then I'm just going to say right now that I think it should only be repairable in-town, at an NPC, and nowhere else.

    Reasoning:

    - If you let crafters do it for free, people feel like they have to be a crafter to repair their own gear.

    - If you let crafters make "repair kits" for use in the field, you trivialize durability altogether (no one goes anywhere without repair kits on hand).  Not to mention that I don't really want to see crafters being looked at as repair kit dispensers from an economy perspective.

    So, as with many other things - if durability is going to be a thing, I think we should evolve it from previous MMOs.  Otherwise - I think there's probably better and more interesting money sinks that can be implemented. 


    Couldn't say it better, agree with all points.

     

    So basically it would be a ticking failure counter, after X failures you have to backup in town to rewind the situation. That works until/unless there are repair NPC near dungeons / Repairs bots/players/whatever.

     

    The idea is good, and offers a back and forth movement from and to towns, but It must remains as it is designed and not offer close proximity reparators like you can see it in Wow, that just make you loose 5min mid raid  or a repair bot.

    • 1219 posts
    July 29, 2020 11:55 AM PDT

     

    Let me run this by you guys.  Its sort of a combination of multiple ideas in this thread.

    Durability

    All items have durability.  The amount of durability is Ranked Metal->Stone->Wood->Leather->Cloth.  When you take damage (especially lethal hits) there is a chance that one or more of your visible pieces of gear takes damage.  Being killed has a chance to damage all items.  The chance of taking durability damage when hit also follows the same scale from low to high chance.

    When an item is between 76-100% of durability it functions normally.

    51-75% its is Worn with a 10% penalty to its stats.

    26-50% Damaged 25% penalty

    1-25% Falling Apart 50% penalty

    0% is Broken and unusable.

    Metal and therefor tank armor will have much higher durability so it will take more hits before dropping a category, this should offset tanks taking the most hits without dropping in effectiveness quickly.

    Repairing

    All items have a base raw material. Repairing an item will require a set number of raw materials based on which tier the durability is currently at.

    Craftsmen NPCs can repair items but you must provide them with the raw materials as well as cash.  The amount of raw materials they require will be more than players and will cost a fair amount.  Repairing cloth from Broken to fully repaired will cost the same as Metal plate from Broken to fully repaired.

    PC craftsmen can repair armor.  Each item will require a certain amount of skill in order to be able to.  The craftsmen must have the ability to craft a similar item level of item as well as having the knowledge of the raw material unlocked.  Repairing attempts can fail.

    Based on the craftsmen skill check multiple actions can happen.  On a failure all the material and the fuel will be consumed and the craftsmen will gain no exp.  On a minor success the materials will be consumed and the durability will jump to the bottom of the next tier.  On a full success the material is consumed and the item returns to max durability.  On a master success only half the material is consumed and the item returns to max durability.

    Salvaging and other ways to get the raw materials

    The raw materials used in repairing can come from multiple sources.  First is standard harvesting though that material may be considered very common.  Second is from recycling dropped items.  Often dropped items will have their own value and it would be painful to break them down just for repairs so in comes a third option. 

    Using the Salvage skill a player can loot world objects looking for nice items.  Often Salvage will only yield junk items not worth picking up.  Most humanoid corpses will also have junk items that can be salvaged but have no merchant value and therefor do not show up under standard loot.  These junk items can be recycled by crafters to gain the raw materials needed for repairs.

    How it plays out

    Assuming that leveling crafting takes half as much or more time to level as leveling an adventuring class then there will not be all that many actual craftsmen running around.  Salvaging and repairing items may be a primary way to level crafting.  This will lead to craftsmen being on the rarer side than even EQ craftsmen and nothing like WoW vanity crafters.

    This rarity but important need could result in a unique playstyle where someone focuses on being the best crafter that can both recycle well and repair with good results.  Said player could forgo doing much in the way of adventuring to focus on crafting.  In order to practice their craft they could either setup in a specific city to advertise their services or be escorted out to an adventure zone and setup at one of the safe campfires.  Players would either bring raw materials that match their gear or an adequate amount of junk items for the crafter to recycle in order to repair the gear.  The Crafter will be in zone providing a service but due to the cost of setting up a portable repair station they will be reluctant to move it quickly.

    On raids a guild will likely make sure they have at least one crafter that can repair each of the different visible pieces of gear that the raiders wear.  This way they can salvage in zone or pack in enough raw to fix gear through a night of deaths.  This repairing time will create an opportunity cost that makes death a little more painful while also driving way up player interactions and the adventurer/crafter dynamic.

    • 594 posts
    July 29, 2020 10:29 PM PDT

    I have a similar idea. There is already been said a lot. And overall, VR should be able to make something decent with everything that's been discussed by the community concerning this topic. Yes, there will be compromises and we can't please everyone. 

    Here goes yet another pitch:

    You could have the percentage warning sign to your equipment losing durability and later on becoming broken.

    So before any durability is lost, you’ll have to die 3 times. From then on your durability takes a hit (a severe one). If you die after that point, you only 3 deaths left before you take another severe durability hit left. You could include yet another stage of deaths before you take that final durability hit and your gear becomes un-equip able. How many times you can die before you encounter this, can be tested.

    The "Warning %" that you lose each time on a death could be calculated depending on the circumstances. For sake of convenience here, you could go:

    -16.5% on first death    

    -16.5% on second death

    -16.5% on third death

    At this point you have died 3 times and your “Warning percentage” has gone down with -49.5% This is where you get your first durability hit.

    -16.5% on 4th death

    -16.5% on 5th death

    -16.5% on 6th death

    At this point you have died 6 times. (It should be clear by know if your challenge matches your efforts. Or if you are biting off more than you can chew.) The “Warning percentage” has gone down with -99% in total now. And so you take another severe durability hit.

    Your gear is not broken, you can still wear it. But you better start thinking about heading back or to at the very least to a safe location. This final 1% allows you to still wear your gear and pick up your corpse. If you die under these conditions, your gear effective becomes un-equip able until repaired. In this last scenario, you will have died a 7th time.

    Obviously you can play around with these %’s numbers, so you might want 2 deaths instead of 3 for your first durability hit and another 2 for your second hit. Where you finally die a 5th time, etc. You can still debate on what losing durability entails. At least the players know, how far they can push the buttons. Let's not forget, this isn't the only death penalty here.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at July 29, 2020 10:47 PM PDT
    • 594 posts
    July 29, 2020 10:42 PM PDT

    A lot of good remarks have come forth already.

    Thumbs up for: No in the field repairs, crafter only repairs, option to obtain repair materials, scarce work stations being in the world (possibly occuppied by mobs?), an included coin costs, no repair options near entrances, repair specializations by crafters, Repairing attempts can fail

    Vandraad made a good remark on the stats decrease. Perhaps we could go into that further.

    Stats aren't going to explode in Pantheon like it's the case in other games. So a stat decrease could be felt. 

    Maybe the durability loss could intially impact a more general feat/trait of a character? Where the stat decrease is only occurring at a later decisive moment, where gear becomes un- equip able.

    So at first, the loss of durability causes the endurance to take a hit or the out of combat recover time? (a hp or mana hit would be too severe and discouraging) (I wouldn't touch on abilities or focus either because you'll still need to rely on those to get to your corpse and further along your adventure)

    When you receive that second durability hit (this might only occur after another series of deaths) your gear actually gets affected. 

    So it's only at this point that your overall performance in combat will suffer. But at this point you already have died X times, so it should be clear if you're over your head in this or not. What that second durability hit is saying to the player; "Pick up your things and go repair, come back stronger another time." Where the first durability hit says to the player: "This is quite the challenge, you better take your time for it and stay alert."


    This post was edited by Barin999 at July 29, 2020 10:59 PM PDT
    • 594 posts
    July 29, 2020 11:04 PM PDT

    Trasak said:

    ... On a master success only half the material is consumed and the item returns to max durability.

    I'll pass on that. By keeping that recovery option in there, you're already decreasing the impact of having to repair. If repair materials are indeed pricy, players will seek out those crafters that are most likely to have a master success. And master successes will become the norm instead of the exception.

    I don't see the need for a decrease in material consumption.. With durability and repair mechanics in the game, you're trying to keep the moneysink as open/large as possible and senseable. Recovering materials during successes would tighten that sink.

    • 1219 posts
    July 30, 2020 4:35 AM PDT

    Barin999 said:

    Trasak said:

    ... On a master success only half the material is consumed and the item returns to max durability.

    I'll pass on that. By keeping that recovery option in there, you're already decreasing the impact of having to repair. If repair materials are indeed pricy, players will seek out those crafters that are most likely to have a master success. And master successes will become the norm instead of the exception.

    I don't see the need for a decrease in material consumption.. With durability and repair mechanics in the game, you're trying to keep the moneysink as open/large as possible and senseable. Recovering materials during successes would tighten that sink.

    The goal was to reward the crafter for doing a repair that might no longer bring them crafting experience.  Maybe there is a better option.

    On the note of portable crafting stations.  I was thinking that a station could be portable but would require a fair amount of "fuel" to set it up.  Once setup it would have a max duration and if the crafter went too far away it would auto break down an need to be picked up.  In this way you would really only set up your portable station at a safe location which very likely might be the Campfires refered to in streams.  In the future it could also be in outposts.  These portable stations would lack any crafting bonuses and would be limited on what all could be done, mostly just make repairs and consumables.

    Fair warning, I am less interested in making durability a painful death penalty as I am making durability a primary Crafter to Adventurer interaction.

    • 594 posts
    July 30, 2020 10:49 PM PDT

    Trasak said:

    The goal was to reward the crafter for doing a repair that might no longer bring them crafting experience.  Maybe there is a better option.

    How about if a crafter is able to have a "master success" they actually do gain a bit of crafting experience (call it a treat or a boon or whathave ye) . Even though the repairing process wouldn't deliver that any longer.

     

    • 1423 posts
    July 31, 2020 11:42 AM PDT

    Just on the subject of repair kits..

    From the transcript here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J24qkCOmnQY . (July 30,2020 dev stream)
    @58:44 start
    zanfeld wants to know will crafters be able to repair gear damaged from dying?
    yes but the manner the manner is something that we'll talk about later
    but it's definitely in ..
    except there's definitely a lot of ways to make that a really cool aspect of the
    crafting profession more than just you know spitting out repair kits and sending people off with repair kits
    we'll talk about that more soon
    @59:10 end

    Not sure what that means (" we'll talk about that later/more soon "), as you would think they would have the details now, over 6 years later, but anyway.
    It would seem that either repair kits aren't going to be in/it, or not only repair kits, depending on how you interpret their response?  Who knows.

    I am not a fan of being forced into getting fleeced finding another player in order to participate in the Adventure loop, especially at 2am.
    On one hand, the argument is you MUST or SHOULD be interacting socially, yet, if those players are sleeping, that's a problem I can't solve.
    On the other hand, the argument is you MUST or SHOULD be a crafter yourself, yet, maybe that's not my preferred playstyle.

    Of course, the other unknown is if durability loss will be from death only, or also from use, or being in combat, or being near combat, or from your group being in combat, regardless of your personal actions.  All varying shades of bad, depending on your point of view.

    • 645 posts
    July 31, 2020 12:08 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    I am not a fan of being forced into getting fleeced finding another player in order to participate in the Adventure loop, especially at 2am.

    On one hand, the argument is you MUST or SHOULD be interacting socially, yet, if those players are sleeping, that's a problem I can't solve.
    On the other hand, the argument is you MUST or SHOULD be a crafter yourself, yet, maybe that's not my preferred playstyle.

    Of course, the other unknown is if durability loss will be from death only, or also from use, or being in combat, or being near combat, or from your group being in combat, regardless of your personal actions.  All varying shades of bad, depending on your point of view.

    As you said there are still unkowns, but I can't imagine myself being in a situation where I know I'll be playing solo for X hours without being prepared for it.  If I know I'm going to stay up till 2 or 3am and I know it'll be hard to find other players I'll make sure all my gear is repaired before my crafting friends log off for the night.  

    • 1688 posts
    July 31, 2020 1:35 PM PDT

    I was talking with some folks yesterday who were concerned about how durability loss might adversely affect tanks, enchanters, rangers, and gnomes because of their propensity to die more often while grouped.

    My momentary flash of brilliance:  What if the durability hit only happened on release - not death?  Meaning if there was someone standing by to resurrect them before they released to their bind location, their gear was not impacted?

     

    • 1219 posts
    July 31, 2020 3:44 PM PDT

    That is kinda elegant.  Healers will still need a healer from another group to come rez them but you can't have everything.

    • 594 posts
    August 1, 2020 3:49 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    My momentary flash of brilliance:  What if the durability hit only happened on release - not death?  Meaning if there was someone standing by to resurrect them before they released to their bind location, their gear was not impacted?

    So what remains of the death penalty after resurrection is:

    When you die:
    - Lose X% of current experience towards next level
    - Respawn with the gear you were wearing when you died still equipped.  (not really required anylonger since a player is resurrecting you where you died, correct?)
    - All general inventory remains on corpse, must be looted to retrieve. This includes money. (not really present, since you're not leaving your corpse on the ground, are you?)
    - Resurrection abilities will return an amount of lost exp. All priest classes will boast the same exp return for their rezzes.

    The first two can still remain, but how do you see the last two here? If you just get revived by a player nearby, is your corpse still present? I doubt that right? And the last one would just stay the same. So the 4th would counter the 1st effect. 

    So how much impact of the death penalty remain when you die and get revived in a group or by a nearby player?  You lose a <% xp. And that's it?  Is this what you're idea is aimed at, Nephele? Or am I misunderstanding this?

    Aside of thse remarks, it looks like a good idea to differentiate between leaving your corpse and staying in the flow of things. You might be more inclined to remain dead and look to find aid to resurrect you at your current location instead.

     

    • 1688 posts
    August 1, 2020 6:35 AM PDT

    Barin999 said:

    So how much impact of the death penalty remain when you die and get revived in a group or by a nearby player?  You lose a <% xp. And that's it?  Is this what you're idea is aimed at, Nephele? Or am I misunderstanding this?

    Nope, that's pretty much it.  The only real "penalty" for death (apart from the time spent resurrecting you) is all the stuff that kicks in when you don't have someone nearby who can resurrect you before you release.

    It's dangerous to go alone, take a healer.

    • 2054 posts
    August 1, 2020 11:58 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    My momentary flash of brilliance:  What if the durability hit only happened on release - not death?  Meaning if there was someone standing by to resurrect them before they released to their bind location, their gear was not impacted?

    This I could absolutely get behind.  This would mean far less of a burden placed on monk, enchanters, tanks.  If you're in a group, you have a priest so you have the potential to resurrect and avoid durability loss.

    • 2710 posts
    August 1, 2020 3:10 PM PDT

    Still a hard no thank you to any stat damage from durability loss, at least until such a point the item is in an "unusable" state.

     

    Can't say I am a fan of no durability loss when downed but get a rez as the damage has been done, you lost your fight and the armor was damaged in the process. Being healed back to life shouldn't have anything to do with that (not to mention such a system really is a slight against healers).

     

    If crafters can repair items, I hope it is more expensive (for the crafters to buy the materials) than going for a repair at NPCs. The material(s) should be NPC only with no way around the extra cost, the idea of repairs is to sink money out of the game and field repairs should have a higher luxury price than making ones way back to town.

    • 594 posts
    August 2, 2020 1:22 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Can't say I am a fan of no durability loss when downed but get a rez as the damage has been done, you lost your fight and the armor was damaged in the process. Being healed back to life shouldn't have anything to do with that (not to mention such a system really is a slight against healers).

    If crafters can repair items, I hope it is more expensive (for the crafters to buy the materials) than going for a repair at NPCs. The material(s) should be NPC only with no way around the extra cost, the idea of repairs is to sink money out of the game and field repairs should have a higher luxury price than making ones way back to town.

    I would agree that armor's durability should get a hit when you die. Or a design where durability loss of gear after dieing is included to some degree or at some stage.

    Repair costs (how ever you want it) should scale. I like the idea of field repairs being extra pricy...as long as they scale along with the other method of repairs. And it's not a fixed price for field repairs that can be use at on any gear no matter what level or quality they have.

    • 1219 posts
    August 2, 2020 9:01 AM PDT

    If repairs move you up a damage level regardless of how many durability points that is to the next damage level, tank armor has more points per damage level and has a lower chance of taking damage per hit than cloth then I think we can have durability hits be a function of getting struck in combat.  Roughly your rate at needing repairs would be even across the classes and group roles.

    Most classes will only take significant durability damage when they are killed due to wipe or pulling agro.  Pullers are in a rougher spot but again you are not supposed to get hit much on a pull.  The final hit before death could be an automatic hit but only one tick so as to not over burden the tanks.


    This post was edited by Trasak at August 2, 2020 9:05 AM PDT
    • 20 posts
    August 2, 2020 1:18 PM PDT

    I'm not 100% sure how durability should affect an item. Part of me is like it makes logical sense to see either a damage decrease if its a weapon that is damaged, or a mitigation decrease if it is a piece of armor that is damaged. The other part of me though is like since I haven't experienced the combat first hand I don't know if this is a good idea with the other systems in the game or how it would affect the grouping dynamic.

    As for repairs, I am chill with crafters being able to repair I think that it adds another community dynamic and adds more player agency and reliance. I think that in order to repair a crafter needs to be at a relevant skill level proportional to item level in question, they need to have the required materials again based on the item, and they need to either be in a rest area or they need to have access to the appropriate tool (anvil, forge, loom...etc) depending on what the overall crafting system design is. I personally believe that if a crafter is out in the field the only way they should be able to repair, from a logical standpoint. is with a field repair kit and this kit should facilitate the idea that you are patching a hole in your armor on the go and the repair quality is not the same as having it fully repaired.

    I don't believe that repairs should ever be subject to potentially failing. Personally, if I were to go out and farm the materials required to repair and then I took those materials to a crafter as well as monetary compensation, and then that crafter failed in repairing my gear I would be LIVID with the system. I think that that it is a good idea to implement a chance for critical success when repairing meaning that the number of materials needed wasn't all used, but never a form of critical failure while repairing. I think that when it comes to crafting items (or general crafting) it's ok to have a form of RNG where you can fail, be successful, or have a critical success, but I don't think that failing should be possible when repairing. 

    As for some of my thoughts related to durability loss:

    1. Players should always know the consequence of death. If there is durability loss on death then this needs to be a static percentage that does not change (at least in terms of PvE content).
    2. the concept of general wear and tear makes sense to me logically, but it shouldn't be an oppressive system and the amount of durability lost shouldn't be subjected to RNG. 
    3. Platemail, chainmail, leather, and cloth should all take the same amount of general durability loss. 
    4. Being killed by a player should also have some form of durability loss associated with it. 

    This post was edited by FatedEmperor at August 2, 2020 3:45 PM PDT