@Hurlicane Don't care to go there. Thanks :)
@Syrif
But you apparently do care to spread misinformation. /shrug
Anyways, have a good day. This is obviously not going anywhere.
I really do not mind transmog, I think its a great system that adds another layer of fun for players to explore on. Most of the issues besides the issue of having to inspect so you can find out what they actually are wearing dont really have much merit since they are usually predicated on what other games have done with very little insight into other ways it could be done.
I like transmog, but I also understand the irritation it could be particularly with forming a dungeon, raid or even in pvp it would be to have to inspect players to check for transmog. This is why I think it would be a good idea to introduce a toggle for everyone that lets them disable and or enable other players transmogs.
But then you run into the philisophical question of; Would doing this take players out of the game experience and is that something healthy?
I dont really know since the game is still in development, so ill leave my 2p there.
Also, lets all try to keep it civil, this doesnt need to be a very decisive and polarizing subject.
Beefcake said:toggle does not change who your trying to portray you can stil pretend to be a wolfman(for example) to everyone but me, you going to complain about me wearing beer goggles too ?My in-game persona matters to me. I do not want anyone else to decide how I appear to them.
No one else should be able to decide what clothes I am wearing.
No one else should be able to decide what gender I appear as to them.
No one else should be able to decide what race I appear to as them.
No one else should be able to decide how tall I appear to them.
No one else should be able to decide what color my skin appears to them.
Its my character, not theirs. If they don't like my appearance, they can stay away from me.
I choose who my character will be, not you.
If I had a real life toggle that allowed me to see you with your clothes off, would you object? Even if you say no, I would hope that you at least understand that it would be important to others. Anytime you look at your closet and choose anything but your most comfortable outfit, ask yourself why you did that.
I haven't read all of the posts, but my personal opinion is that what you wear should be what you look like with the exception of being able to hide (or unequip/carry) your helm/hood while not in combat. I also wouldn't object to dyes of player crafted armors (and would actually like to see that). To me, changing the appearance (transmog) of a magical/epic (not player crafted) item is immersion-breaking/impractical... It's like winning a sports car from a casino that everyone else has been dying to win, then the winner overhauls it to look like a truck because they like how trucks look... but it still functions like a sports car?!?!?!?! No thanks.
Minus from PantheonPlus recently changed my mind on this. there isn't going to be bunny suits or spiderman costumes in Pantheon.
what minus said was he wants to able to transmog stuff that he has owned in the past. not just Anything. example he had a Flowing Black Robe and now has a Shining Metalic Robe (SMR). if he likes the FBR look better, he can transmog his smr to look like the fbr. no one would be able to toggle it off.
The reason he changed my mind is this. in a game where the community is supposed to be like EQ 1, some people say they wanna know if he has good armor or not by looking at them. Does having gear = he must be really good at his class? vs the guy with not great armor but really knows his class very well.
Do we really want to snob someone off because they aren't geared enough? I mean maybe a raid would. but we aren't supposed to have a community like WoW. We are supposed to wanna help each other and be friendly. since when is calling someone a scrub because their gear doesn't look good enough for you socially acceptable? Why not just go with iLevel and be done with it. it would be the same thing in the end.
the video was really good. you guys should check it out. its on his twitch channel and youtube.
Darch said:I haven't read all of the posts...
Oh dear. Oh well.
Darch said:but my personal opinion is that what you wear should be what you look like with the exception of being able to hide (or unequip/carry) your helm/hood while not in combat. I also wouldn't object to dyes of player crafted armors (and would actually like to see that). To me, changing the appearance (transmog) of a magical/epic (not player crafted) item is immersion-breaking/impractical... It's like winning a sports car from a casino that everyone else has been dying to win, then the winner overhauls it to look like a truck because they like how trucks look... but it still functions like a sports car?!?!?!?! No thanks.
But if you'd read the posts, you'd know that no one wants that either. It would be like making that sports car look like a different sports car, or the same but with a body kit and tint change.
No changing something to look like something of a different type.
oneADseven said:The biggest issue is that there is a difference between "adventuring gear" and "cosmetic gear" -- we know that both would be earned in-game, and that according to the FAQ (and later clarification found on this thread) -- players would be able to leverage a toggle to determine how other players appear on their screen. You can view other players in their adventuring gear, or in their cosmetic gear. So what is cosmetic gear? Well, this was clarified shortly after the FAQ revision was posted.
Aradune said:My thoughts on what 'cosmetic' items are:
Primarily they are items to change your characters appearance in a way that doesn't relate to combat -- they're for RP'ing and such, and are very important to many people in the Pantheon community.
They *could* also, post-launch, evolve into horizontal paths of advancement and have non-combat related stats and attributes.
Unfortunately, this is why it's very important that VR provides some sort of update to the plan. In accordance with the FAQ and later follow-up clarification, it stands to reason, then, that players could:
Equip cosmetic gear (as defined above) and then appear to be using non-combat gear while in-combat. That is how it is worded. It sounds like I would need to adjust the toggle depending on where I'm at in order to achieve any reasonable sense of immersion. If I'm in town, I would need to have cosmetic gear toggled on. If I'm out in the wilds, I would need to have it toggled off. If I have cosmetic gear toggled ON while out in the wild, that would mean I would see other players adventuring in tuxedos or whatever other forms of "non-combat roleplaying gear" that might be implemented. This kind of toggle is unprecedented in MMO's and makes the entire concept of cosmetic gear in Pantheon extremely undesirable. Imagine having to manually toggle between adventure/cosmetic mode every time you enter/leave town in order to achieve reasonable immersion. Nobody wants that and there is a snowball's chance in hell that VR would actually launch with these hypothetical conditions.
Woohoo, an actually point to discuss! And a good one.
Keeping in mind, though, that, even though Brad was obviously the main man, him wording it like "these are my thoughts" doesn't mean "this is the stance VR are going with".
But, yeah, *if* VR's definition of 'cosmetic' items (that would be used in appearance slots or whatever) are "non-adventure" then that puts a different slant on the whole thing.
No one wants to see characters adventuring in "non-adventure" gear. No one wants to see a warrior in his pyjamas fighting a dragon and people's desire to avoid that kind of ridiculousness absolutely trumps that players desire to be seen dragon fighting in pyjamas.
Now, this still, as 1AD7 points out, doesn't make a toggle a good idea, just because it would be painful for even the people wanting to dress up in town, but not while adventuring. Some sort of automatic switch hitting the town limits would be more sensible.
And, even though I don't really even want to see non-adventuring gear in town - I don't care for it - I don't really want "non-adventuring" gear at all - I would put up with it for those that do.
P.S. I want to admit right now that I may have not kept that FAQ nuance in mind when discussing this. I have been talking about a 'potential' appearance slot system and some of you guys might all have been assuming those 'cosmetic' items are definitely going to be 'non-adventuring' gear. I apologise for any mis-conception, *but* I have to say, I always made clear *my* understanding of what I thought appearance slots *should* work like. If people were arguing from a different viewpoint, they could have cleared that up easy by explaining ;^)
Ainadak said:If I had a real life toggle that allowed me to see you with your clothes off, would you object? Even if you say no, I would hope that you at least understand that it would be important to others. Anytime you look at your closet and choose anything but your most comfortable outfit, ask yourself why you did that.
seeing someone naked via a toggle irl is a very different thing now if someone doesnt want to see me strutting around in a thong? yea theyrer welcome to toggle that to a pair of shorts or something your compareingt privacy with freedom of expression of how you want to show off
Quseio2017 said:Ainadak said:If I had a real life toggle that allowed me to see you with your clothes off, would you object? Even if you say no, I would hope that you at least understand that it would be important to others. Anytime you look at your closet and choose anything but your most comfortable outfit, ask yourself why you did that.
seeing someone naked via a toggle irl is a very different thing now if someone doesnt want to see me strutting around in a thong? yea theyrer welcome to toggle that to a pair of shorts or something your compareingt privacy with freedom of expression of how you want to show off
It's true it's difficult to compare to real life.
It's more akin to having a toggle that, no matter what you wear, however impressive or however much effort you go to, others can choose to see you in your most average t-shirt and jeans.
What Ainadak is saying (and I agree) is that the kind of folk that are particular over their outfit don't do it for themselves and if others can see them in their boring stuff a lot of folk just won't bother dressing up.
It's *still* not a great analog, because a role-playing game is all about playing a role and in real life a ton of people (including myself) largely dress for comfort and convenience. A toggle in real life wouldn't bother me much. In the game it ruins the appearance system to a degree that makes it pointless (even for someone like me that doesn't much care about appearance in real life).
The real life analogy is good from the confusion aspect though. Two people could look at the same person and see different things. It would regularly lead to bizarre confusions and problems.
techninja1337 said:Y'all worried about gear and how ya look, and I'm just sitting here wondering what inventory space is going to look like to justify having a full closet of leisure suits...
They have mentioned that 'appearance slots' would be like an extra set of armor slots. I imagine the appearance gear would just sit in those.
In LOTRO anything you 'consume' to go into your 'wardrobe' isn't really a gear item to be stored anymore, it can only be used as an appearance slot item.
I think in Pantheon they had intended items that were used/stored in appearance slots to still be tradeable.
I guess effectively appearance slots would have been 'extra' inventory. Would they have weighed anything? I don't know.
It is a good question though. If there's a toggle *and* appearance gear takes up inventory and/or weight allowance, that's even more reason to not bother with the whole thing. Who's going to bother carrying around an outfit, taking up weight and inventory that only 50% (10%? 99%? You wouldn't know) will see anyway?
znushu said:I'm just curious what everyones stances are to this question as there seems to be divide in the community in this simple question.
I for one don't believe another player should be in control in how you are percieved, regardless of it being just armor or race.
How you look like to yourself should be the same for how you look like to other players, regardless. This is a World after all, am I wrong?
I also don't believe any other player should be in control of how your toon looks to them.
However, I also don't believe players should have the option to alter how the game was originally developed to look either. If the devs wanted armor A to look like armor A and armor B to look like armor B, then that's the way it should be. At the very least, I should not be forced to view the game in a way that was not originally intended. I'm buying the game because I have faith in the Devs creative choices, not everyones elses "creative" changes.
I want to be able to view Pantheon as Pantheon truly is, not someone elses personal bastardization of it.
streeg said:znushu said:I'm just curious what everyones stances are to this question as there seems to be divide in the community in this simple question.
I for one don't believe another player should be in control in how you are percieved, regardless of it being just armor or race.
How you look like to yourself should be the same for how you look like to other players, regardless. This is a World after all, am I wrong?I also don't believe any other player should be in control of how your toon looks to them.
However, I also don't believe players should have the option to alter how the game was originally developed to look either. If the devs wanted armor A to look like armor A and armor B to look like armor B, then that's the way it should be. At the very least, I should not be forced to view the game in a way that was not originally intended. I'm buying the game because I have faith in the Devs creative choices, not everyones elses "creative" changes.
I want to be able to view Pantheon as Pantheon truly is, not someone elses personal bastardization of it.
I don't disagree, but the frame of the discussion is that VR have said there will be appearance gear. It's been quoted in this thread by 1AD7 I think.
I would also say that, even with appearance slots, the appearance gear and how it can be used will be by the devs' 'creative choices' too. No one wants weird outfits.
streeg said:However, I also don't believe players should have the option to alter how the game was originally developed to look either. If the devs wanted armor A to look like armor A and armor B to look like armor B, then that's the way it should be. At the very least, I should not be forced to view the game in a way that was not originally intended. I'm buying the game because I have faith in the Devs creative choices, not everyones elses "creative" changes.
I want to be able to view Pantheon as Pantheon truly is, not someone elses personal bastardization of it.
I really like (and agree with) how you express your thoughts on this. I thank you, truly.
We will be in their world. There will be thousands of items for chars to explore and figure out what stats they want alongside how they want to appear. Chars will explore to find items, and mix what they want to equip. Holds true for either raid/adventure gear or cosmetic clothing (weddings, ceremonies, racial day like a Durin’s Day, guild meetings and the like). Mixing/matching for stats and/or appearance via quest, group, solo attempt, duo attempt, adventuring/exploring, guild raid, guild alliances, intense crafting, and perception is how chars will most likely achieve this. There will be risksVSreward. Ppl will set goals, plan, and actually strategize again. That’s the fun in the adventure in their world.
disposalist said:I don't disagree, but the frame of the discussion is that VR have said there will be appearance gear. It's been quoted in this thread by 1AD7 I think.
I would also say that, even with appearance slots, the appearance gear and how it can be used will be by the devs' 'creative choices' too. No one wants weird outfits.
I'm not concerned about silly bunny outfits or what not. I'm sure they wouldn't allow that. I guess my point is, as an example, that if they create a breastplate of Aradune then I want to see it on my screen as the breastplate of Aradune and not as a drab bronze bp or anything alse for that matter.
They may put it in game to allow that to happen to appease some others, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or that I won't try to push them to give me a toggle to block such blasphemy.
There is the idea that player agency and self-expression are not considered blasphemy. One would think that ... if an appearance feature/system exists, that it would be implemented with the specific goal of enhancing player agency and self-expression. Well, this is beyond the other more obvious reasons such as encouraging player-driven questing / horizontal progression and boosting content relevance across the board. In any event, Terminus isn't supposed to feel like a world that is curated for the individual; it's all about the shared experience. Game tenets matter a lot.
Hurlicane said:I think Syrif and I are actually on the same page on this topic, I just don't think wrongfully using WoW to fit his argument is helpful because he is arguing FOR how they treat transmog/appearance items.
goodness’ sake!
Clarification: I am not on the same page as you at all on this topic, sorry. I am 100% against the idea of a Transmog that exists on WoW-Live. And like I have said on more than one occasion, I am 100% against the hide helm/cloak/etc toggles that exist on WoW-Classic (it also apparently existed on Live as well for years). Both versions are available at Acti Blizzard. WoW is beyond terrible and I wouldn’t waste my time with it, but that’s me. Re clarification, this is my final response to you on this topic.
streeg said:disposalist said:I don't disagree, but the frame of the discussion is that VR have said there will be appearance gear. It's been quoted in this thread by 1AD7 I think.
I would also say that, even with appearance slots, the appearance gear and how it can be used will be by the devs' 'creative choices' too. No one wants weird outfits.
I'm not concerned about silly bunny outfits or what not. I'm sure they wouldn't allow that. I guess my point is, as an example, that if they create a breastplate of Aradune then I want to see it on my screen as the breastplate of Aradune and not as a drab bronze bp or anything alse for that matter.
They may put it in game to allow that to happen to appease some others, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or that I won't try to push them to give me a toggle to block such blasphemy.
I understand that, but I am interested why? Aside from the BP of Aradune (why would anyone not want to show that?!).
Gear used for appearance will possibly/probably be gear that is higher level and more difficult to get than the stats gear you choose to keep wearing just because of the stats.
People *might* choose to appear more 'boring' than their stats gear is. Again, though, I ask, if that's what *they* want for their image, why does that offend you?
If you say "I just don't like it" or "it feels wrong" then ok, I understand that, but I would say that the person using the appearance of a bronze BP instead of the BP of Ostentaciousness probably has feelings over not wanting to look ostentatious. Are your feelings more important than his? And since this is about *his* character, whose feelings should perhaps win out? (which is what the OP question is all about)
I don't see an issue with having a toggle, nor do I see an issue with having transmogs and dyes. if someone wants to have their character dress outrageously, then by all means go right ahead. If there are people that don't like it, just toggle it off and be done with it. Arguing that toggle shouldn't be a thing, and also arguing that no one should be able to transmog or dye their armor, or wear the over-the-top armor that they want, is a form of controlling what a person wears. The toggle solves this issue by allowing someone to turn it off and see that person for what their armor is and that's really it. You can't argue for having vanity slots, then argue that there shouldn't be a toggle, then go and say that you don't want to see what you would consider an outlandish vanity item. I'm going to put in whatever I want, and anyone in the game should be able to put in or transmog what they want. If you don't like it, ok toggle it out, strip away all of it and just see the character what they are dressed in at its base.
With raiding and toggling, the solution is simple. Instead of telling people to go stand by the elf with the bunny ears on, how about just say go and stand by Lyriela? Why not just use names instead of descriptions? That's a lot more simple than having to worry about who has what toggled on and off. Toggle is a great thing, and it allows for people to dress how they want in the game, and allows for people who don't like it to turn it off. If I come dressed in ice-blue armor that's been transmogged, with a bright halo above my head, and you don't like it or your computer can't handle it; then it's not going to bother me if you toggle it all off or not. I would completely understand that not everyone has the same taste in what I put on my character. It works in reverse too, anyone here that were to dress in something that I either didn't like, or had too many particles, or whatever, and I toggled it, how is it effecting how your character is dressed? Because they are still dressed the same on your screen. the same could be said for real life. If you dress in let's say a summer dress that someone else doesn't like, they should be able to walk away from you and not forced to stand there and stare at you. The same can be said for the reverse, anyone here that gets into a room with someone dressed in a sundress you don't like, then you should have every option to walk out or walk away, and not forced to stand there and stare at it. That person is not going to change their clothing or the way they want to wear the dress or anything else, just because you don't like it. They are more likely to have the attitude of 'deal with it, if you don't like it, don't look at me', and leave it at that.