Cosmetic (vainity or appearance or whatever) armour and weapons hides the true worth of a character. You are portraying something that doesnt exists. It is decieving people into making them think something other than what is. Thats the cost. It isnt role play to put on some fancy clothing or look like you are wielding some mean looking weapon.
If you are wielding the "little dagger of pin holes" but your are portraying the "valient long sword of glittery death and destruction", then it is deception, regardless of intent.
The second point is that you forcing me to see something you want me to see is controlling. No matter how you argue it.
/inspect is not much of a compromise but yes it would work and it would still break the illusion you are trying to sustain. So if you allow /inspect, the the toggle is also a valid option.
So I would argue that the carefully crafted (and leading) question "Should another player be in control of your appearance?" should be requestioned as "Should players have the ability to specify what they can see and what they can hide?" This then encompasses items like blood and gore, profanity, advertisements as well as cosmetics, etc.
It comes down to my client and the choices I am happy showing on my screen. If we have cosmetics, then I would want the choice to switch them off when I want.
I feel like we're starting to discuss, now. Cool.
chenzeme said:Cosmetic (vainity or appearance or whatever) armour and weapons hides the true worth of a character.
What do you mean by 'worth' though?
As I've said, if appearance items are just gear that you use in an appearance slot, those items could be *more* difficult to obtain and mean more about your power than the item you currently need the stats of (especially with situational gear for climates, etc)
chenzeme said:You are portraying something that doesnt exists. It is decieving people into making them think something other than what is. Thats the cost.
I understand the deception argument, sure, but I will ask: So what? Why do you need to know? Why do you care? I have picked the item to portray an image. That's my reason. What's your reason for insisting on seeing what I am getting the stats from? It's not PvP. I get some people want to judge you on your gear so they can maybe exclude you from their group. If that's all it is, /inspect gives you a much more accurate indication.
chenzeme said:It isnt role play to put on some fancy clothing or look like you are wielding some mean looking weapon.
It literally is. Exactly that. Though the clothing won't necessarily be more fancy or the weapon more mean looking. It will look like the role I wish to portray. Often that will mean *less* fancy or mean. When someone puts on a costume with accessories, they are literally playing a role, however subtle.
chenzeme said:If you are wielding the "little dagger of pin holes" but your are portraying the "valient long sword of glittery death and destruction", then it is deception, regardless of intent.
True indeed. Deception like an actor in a movie. So, what is the harm? Why do you feel deceived and not just entertained? It matters to me to look the part of my role. I find that fun. Why does it matter to you that you see through that to my stats?
chenzeme said:The second point is that you forcing me to see something you want me to see is controlling. No matter how you argue it.
And the toggle is controlling. Which controlling of others is worse/better? The one that allows self-expression in a role-playing game? Or the one that suppresses that and allows you to have a go at knowing what my stats are? Are both as bad? So why not allow both? Have appearance gear and have /inspect. The toggle, though, breaks the appearance slot concept enough to make it worthless. Also confusing.
chenzeme said:/inspect is not much of a compromise but yes it would work and it would still break the illusion you are trying to sustain. So if you allow /inspect, the the toggle is also a valid option.
No. A compromise involves mutual concessions. /inspect is a compromise, because both parties make a consession. Those wanting to portray an image can do so initially and most of the time but must accept people can look through it when they want. Those needing to 'know' the stats gear can do, whenever they want and with complete accuracy, but they have to type /inspect to do it. The toggle gives one side 100% of what they want and ruins it to some degree, I would argue pretty much completely, for the other.
chenzeme said:So I would argue that the carefully crafted (and leading) question "Should another player be in control of your appearance?" should be requestioned as "Should players have the ability to specify what they can see and what they can hide?" This then encompasses items like blood and gore, profanity, advertisements as well as cosmetics, etc.
It comes down to my client and the choices I am happy showing on my screen. If we have cosmetics, then I would want the choice to switch them off when I want.
I suppose some might insist they want you to see their full title and want you to see blood as you disembowel stuff.
I would argue that those things are about screen clutter, machine performance and stuff that folk can find offensive. The reason is generally deemed acceptable. Just like the helmhide and cloakhide options, that, strangely, no one ever asks for a toggle to see through...
chenzeme said:Cosmetic (vainity or appearance or whatever) armour and weapons hides the true worth of a character. You are portraying something that doesnt exists. It is decieving people into making them think something other than what is. Thats the cost. It isnt role play to put on some fancy clothing or look like you are wielding some mean looking weapon.
If you are wielding the "little dagger of pin holes" but your are portraying the "valient long sword of glittery death and destruction", then it is deception, regardless of intent.
The second point is that you forcing me to see something you want me to see is controlling. No matter how you argue it.
/inspect is not much of a compromise but yes it would work and it would still break the illusion you are trying to sustain. So if you allow /inspect, the the toggle is also a valid option.
So I would argue that the carefully crafted (and leading) question "Should another player be in control of your appearance?" should be requestioned as "Should players have the ability to specify what they can see and what they can hide?" This then encompasses items like blood and gore, profanity, advertisements as well as cosmetics, etc.
It comes down to my client and the choices I am happy showing on my screen. If we have cosmetics, then I would want the choice to switch them off when I want.
Going to have to disagree with your first statement. Some people can be decked out in what you perceive as the best gear (by glancing at them) and still be a shitter... and vice-versa.
But I agree that people should be able to toggle it off if they want to, along with any sort of illusions that make their way into the game.
But I agree that people should be able to toggle it off if they want to, along with any sort of illusions that make their way into the game.
And I'm gonna have to disagree with this. If a druid casts a spell to make himself look like a tree, other players should not be able to turn that off. If an elf finds an item that makes him look like an skar, other players should not be able to turn that off. Etc. Those are part of the world/story and they effect the things around them.
Ranarius said:But I agree that people should be able to toggle it off if they want to, along with any sort of illusions that make their way into the game.And I'm gonna have to disagree with this. If a druid casts a spell to make himself look like a tree, other players should not be able to turn that off. If an elf finds an item that makes him look like an skar, other players should not be able to turn that off. Etc. Those are part of the world/story and they effect the things around them.
But how are we supposed to know, at a glance, what gear you have if you look like a tree? What are you trying to hide and why do you insist on dictating what I can see?
I'm of course, being flippant - not getting at you Ran, but perhaps there is a point?
If appearance items work via crafters such that things are changed by physical and magical means to look like other things, would that be 'ok' because it is then part of the world/story/lore?
I get the argument, I just think there is a difference between game related story (looks based) and "just for fun" looks based. I think there are certainly things in-game that are looks based...KoS Races for example.
I doubt a cash-shop item that makes an elf look like a skar so that he can roam freely in a skar city would ever be an option. But an item that you earn *might* be in-game. Course, we don't know yet.
I mentioned this in a discord conversation about this topic yesterday, but it seems relevant to put here as well.
I am generally in support of "transmog" systems that allow players to customize their equipment appearance - within reasonable limitations, of course.
There are two reasons why I support this:
1) It is very important to me that my character appear visually distinct from others of the same class/level/accomplishment. I severely dislike games where everyone ends up looking the same because we're all wearing the same three gear sets or whatever.
2) I like the ability to modify the appearance of individual pieces to make them match better with the rest of my equipment. I dislike looking like a patchwork person, especially when that includes clashing colors and textures.
None of this means that I like to parade around in bunny suits or unrealistic-looking clothing/armor. Likewise, none of it means that I don't value gear pieces that have a unique and compelling look. But I don't think players should be forced into a paradigm where everyone's look gets homogenized over time because of stat choices, and you have to be a top-end raider to have anything that looks even remotely different.
Nephele said:None of this means that I like to parade around in bunny suits or unrealistic-looking clothing/armor. Likewise, none of it means that I don't value gear pieces that have a unique and compelling look. But I don't think players should be forced into a paradigm where everyone's look gets homogenized over time because of stat choices, and you have to be a top-end raider to have anything that looks even remotely different.
Sorry to inform you Neph but you are going to be wearing a bunny suit. I found the Amulet of Forcible Oryctolagus Cuniculus. I can now change any ones appearance into a bunny. Its fine because its only on my screen. At least it was fine until I realized it was the Playboy bunny costume and I used it on your male ogre, so the joke is on me.
Ranarius said:But I agree that people should be able to toggle it off if they want to, along with any sort of illusions that make their way into the game.And I'm gonna have to disagree with this. If a druid casts a spell to make himself look like a tree, other players should not be able to turn that off. If an elf finds an item that makes him look like an skar, other players should not be able to turn that off. Etc. Those are part of the world/story and they effect the things around them.
I should be allowed to harvest that tree for my tradeskills though right? ;) LOL
Thinking about it, this has been discussed so many times I'm surprised we are still discussing it. Here are a couple quotes from VR on the topic.
Kilsin said:
So you can see it yourself and enjoy your character the way you like, why is there a need to force your characters looks on everyone else? You may think you have great taste but to someone else, it is immersion breaking and hurting their eyes while they try and enjoy the game their way.
Not everyone has the same tastes, so it is best if we provide an option to toggle the appearance on/off but keeping in mind we have made it very clear that cosmetic items will be earned in-game, and within our games lore and not easily available to everyone, so it is best to wait and see what we have in store before comparing it to other games and instantly thinking ours will be the same, we know it isn;t everyone's cup of tea and we won't be flooding our game with it as our normal gear will be something to be proud of and be something you will want to show off, not cover up. ;)... we can't cater to one side of our community (who like cosmetics) when the other side (who dislike cosmetics) is just as large in numbers, we provide options, you toggle the ones you want and play our game your way, while others toggle what they want and play the game their way. No one has other people's tastes forced on to them and everyone is happy, it really is that simple
Brad said:
It is important for community in our opinion that people see your gear, especially more exotic gear, worn on you, to inspire them to earn that gear if that want to look that way on day in their future.
I don't mind cosmetic items as long as they don't make you look like you're wearing earned items -- of course, this means more art assets to create, because we'd have to create character appearance items to reflect those cosmetic items, not just earned items.
Also definitely not a fan of being able to run into combat with your cosmetic items on.... so perhaps if you have your cosmetic items on or switched to 'viewable', it should affect your stats/AC/DPS/etc?
I'm still of the opinion that cosmetic slots and toggles aren't necessary. If a player wants to wear something because of the way it looks they can. There is nothing stopping them from doing so. No more time needs to be spent developing extra cosmetic assets.
It is important that a players visible gear shouldn't give them stats from non-viewable gear. (though Brad hints at having that as an option but giving the player negative stats instead to make up for it.) At that point I don't think anyone would have that cosmetic gear on in combat anyway so we come full circle back to my original thought. If a player wants to equip an item because of the way it looks they can. Nothing more needs to be done.
This whole thing is very new mmo/wow-esk/ cater to the masses type of system that I would consider a negative in any game.
Nephele said:I agree with what you're saying but based on the feedback thus far in this thread it honestly seems like those against the idea of not being able to control others appearance is-is somehow detrimental to their own experience as they're worried about seeing stuff like Bunny Costumes or Not knowing what gear a person is wearing.I mentioned this in a discord conversation about this topic yesterday, but it seems relevant to put here as well.
I am generally in support of "transmog" systems that allow players to customize their equipment appearance - within reasonable limitations, of course.
There are two reasons why I support this:
1) It is very important to me that my character appear visually distinct from others of the same class/level/accomplishment. I severely dislike games where everyone ends up looking the same because we're all wearing the same three gear sets or whatever.
2) I like the ability to modify the appearance of individual pieces to make them match better with the rest of my equipment. I dislike looking like a patchwork person, especially when that includes clashing colors and textures.
None of this means that I like to parade around in bunny suits or unrealistic-looking clothing/armor. Likewise, none of it means that I don't value gear pieces that have a unique and compelling look. But I don't think players should be forced into a paradigm where everyone's look gets homogenized over time because of stat choices, and you have to be a top-end raider to have anything that looks even remotely different.
Meanwhile It has been stated time and time again that Pantheon will not have a Cash Shop nor be Freemium, meaning stuff like a pink 'bunny suit' won't happen. As for knowing what gear someone is wearing, well the fact is-is that most players will still want to 'inspect' a player to know all the stats and stuff for their gear for things like if they really need X gear or if they're properly equipped to handle Y battle and so on. Plus there is also the fact that Pantheon at it's core is a fantasy world where you can not only summon fire an water creatures but also create vine bridges and much more; and in a world like that? yeah it's entirely plausable that such magic like disguising/changing the appearance of ones armor would exist since it not only provides a tactical advantage since if you see someone wearing cloth for armor instead of steel you'd then assume their armor has no protection what so ever, especially in a medievil setting. But it would also make sense from a world perspective as well since not everyone would want to go wearing a missmatch of clothing 24/7, would you? Plus you gotta remember that our adventurers are going to get pretty high leveled, so we'll no doubt learn about loads of secrets about not only the world but people and animals too.
If someone doesn't wish to deal with a transmog system then that's fine, they don't need to partake in it. But they shouldn't force others to look like they want them too, that's simply wrong. If I was VR I'd simply make the Transmog system something a player has to learn through a questline from some far off place. Then once they learn it they can simply use the system to 'remember' any item they held in their inventory. Thus making scenes like this where a player pretty much steals items from a armor shop to keep the transmog of it a plausable outcome:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtfFLybFmLs (not exactly what happens but it's close enough to give a visual representation of a transmog system)
That way a player that doesn't like a system like a transmog system can simply NOT do the questline for it and move on. But those players that do want such a system can partake in it. But whether you partook in the quest or not, if that player decides to mog over their red helmet so it's now a blue helmet then another player should have 0 control how that piece of gear is seen to them just like in the real world. I mean if you saw someone down the street wearing a blue shirt can you just wave your wand and their now wearing a red shirt? No, you cannot and thus you shouldn't be able too in Pantheon.
I still don't understand how this is such a hot topic for debate.
Another player should not be in control of another players appearance.
Ranarius said:But I agree that people should be able to toggle it off if they want to, along with any sort of illusions that make their way into the game.And I'm gonna have to disagree with this. If a druid casts a spell to make himself look like a tree, other players should not be able to turn that off. If an elf finds an item that makes him look like an skar, other players should not be able to turn that off. Etc. Those are part of the world/story and they effect the things around them.
It would just be turning it off for the person that turns it off though. Not everyone else. It wouldnt affect the person with the illusion or appearance gear, because they wouldnt even know that someone has it turned off. Some illusions are annoying due to effects, size, etc.
There is an argument that the toggle only affects the observer, and if the observer didn't directly tell us that they had the toggle turned off, we would never know, and thus not be affected. This is false. Pantheon is an open-world game that promotes social interactions between players. The "shared experience" mantra is embedded deep into the core of what makes Pantheon sticky for its target audience. The interactions that occur between players are often going to be based on perception and one of the most critical components of perception is tied to our appearance. Visual disparity compromises the integrity of these interactions. If I want my character to appear as a battle forged veteran, one with dirt/scratches/dents on his armor, and no helmet ... but another player sees him as wearing a shiny set of squeaky clean plate mail, complete with a polished frog-mouth helmet ... the "shared experience" is toast. Immersion is shattered. The way that players react and/or interact with each other is based on perception. The appearance toggle destroys that perception.
I think player should be able to:
However I think full customisation (as seen in most games, and as an excuse to sell appearance items in a cash shop) should not be a part of the game.
Should be a wow moment when you see a high level raider walk through town with impresive armour and partical effects... not every player appearing like a flying yeti vomiting rainbows when they /h
theres nothing wrong with me not seeing your turtle hat cosmetic and only seeing your helm of mass destruction, why care how one person sees its not like im forceing others to see you without your fancy turtle hat(turtle hat is just an example it could be anything)... maybe i find turtles offensive
znushu said:How you look like to yourself should be the same for how you look like to other players, regardless. This is a World after all, am I wrong?
Exactly! That is correct. What you wear is a choice, choices matter, and what you have equipped is what you wear. NO to toggle, NO to transmogs, and NO to appearance slots or whatever the hell they call them. This is going to be a world. Thank you OP, I am in full agreement with you. And for the sake of it, let's keep WoW in WoW. Even the thought of that in Pantheon... no, just no. Yuck.
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels #worldsnotgames #sticktoyourvision #restoreMMORPG
Trying to discern what categories people fit into based on their responses. Disclaimers: Sorry if I missed your motivation. People are actually often in multiple camps at once. Feel free to disagree with me, just realize that I'm not trying to give my best guess and I am not claiming to be describing the unequivocal truth.
Living Worlders: People who want logical consistency throughout. Stats are the mechanics of the world representing the physics and that is tied to visuals. Having a disconnect between the visual world and the real world is nonsense to the living worlder. They don't want toggles and don't want appearance slots.
Stat Hounds: People who care that the quality of gear be visible. They want to be able to discern your stats at a glance because they know where the good/bad gear comes from and what it looks like. They either want no appearance slots or a toggle.
Collectors: Having more things to spend your time on in Pantheon is always good. If appearance slots are a thing, then you have another reason to explore and collect various goodies throughout the world. This adds a lot to replayability. They want to have appearance slots and may or may not be fine with a toggle.
Stylish Outfitters: The idea of wearing a puke green blouse with sky blue pants is abhorrent. These people feel their character's appearance (as seen both by themselves and others) is critical to their character's soul. They want appearance slots and are not fine with a toggle.
Role-Players: They want to portray a character as part of a game within the game. If the character they are roleplaying has a signature hat, they want to be able to don that hat at all times without affecting their combat prowess. They want appearance slots and are not fine with a toggle.
No Appearance Slots
Very Happy: Living Worlders
Happy: Stat Hounds
Fine: Collectors
Unhappy: Role-Players
Very Unhappy: Stylish Outfitters
Appearance Slots with Toggle
Very Happy: -
Happy: Stat Hounds, Role-Players, and Collectors
Fine: -
Unhappy: Stylish Outfitters
Very Unhappy: Living Worlders
Appearance Slots without Toggle
Very Happy: Role-Players and Stylish Outfitters
Happy: Collectors
Fine: -
Unhappy: Stat Hounds and Living Worlders
Very Unhappy: -
Extrensive Gear Customization without Appearance Slots
Very Happy: Stat Hounds and Living Worlders
Happy: -
Fine: Collectors and Role-Players
Unhappy: Stylish Outfitters
Very Unhappy: -
I personally am a Stat Hound and Living Worlder, but I think most people in that zone don't have extreme visceral feelings on this topic. I think probably the easiest and healthiest thing for the game is to go for appearance slots without a toggle and just apply limitations on what you can have in your appearance slot given the gear you actually have equipped.
znushu said:I'm just curious what everyones stances are to this question as there seems to be divide in the community in this simple question.
I for one don't believe another player should be in control in how you are percieved, regardless of it being just armor or race.
How you look like to yourself should be the same for how you look like to other players, regardless. This is a World after all, am I wrong?
I'm honestly not sure why this is even a question.
For me the topic is very much like language in games: If someone uses swear words and you don't want to endure that, you have the option to use a chat filter. And if they continue annoying you, you can block them. Of course you can say whatever you want (as long as it doesn't break the ToS), but noone has to endure you doing so. And you are hurting noone by using a chat filter or by blocking someone.
So, everyone already has several control options when it comes to chat. IMO a toggle to disable the display of appearance gear falls into the same category: You don't have to endure the view of inappropriate gear, but you also don't hurt anyone if you use that option. Seriously, how are YOU affected in any way if >I< use an option to change what I see? In the next step, do you want to disallow me from using general graphics options to change how things are displayed on MY screen???
I see only one reason why people would be against such a toggle: Because they intend to run around in frog costumes (or whatever) in order to annoy other players who just want to immerse themselves in the world.
Of course, there won't even be a debate if the Pantheon devs make sure that all appearance gear is "world appropriate". OR even better, if they make it so that appearance (vanity) gear has no stats, and you can only wear either appearance or real gear, but not both at the same time.
Sarim said:I'm honestly not sure why this is even a question.
For me the topic is very much like language in games: If someone uses swear words and you don't want to endure that, you have the option to use a chat filter. And if they continue annoying you, you can block them. Of course you can say whatever you want (as long as it doesn't break the ToS), but noone has to endure you doing so. And you are hurting noone by using a chat filter or by blocking someone.
...
Of course, there won't even be a debate if the Pantheon devs make sure that all appearance gear is "world appropriate"...
The toggle for people's appearance in a role-playing game is like having a bad language toggle, but only if the game was all about strong language.
It's even more like having a toggle to turn off complicated or long words that some people might find obscure the meaning of what is being said, even if the person saying them finds them extremely expressive and appropriate to their character. It's like a toggle to turn a speaker's "thou" and "hail" into "your" and "hi". Like a toggle to turn someone's quaint turn of phrase into something you more easily understand, even if it alters the tone and meaning.
Swearing is not an integral part of playing a role and a lot of people feel it is offensive. A bad language toggle doesn't stop *anything* about a role-playing game (or any game really).
Designing your appearance to others *is* an integral part of playing a role in a game like Pantheon (and in most situations even in real life, to be honest). A toggle pretty much ruins that aspect of the game for those that care.
You are right in the end of your comment that it won't be an issue to almost everyone if the appearance items are appropriate. And VR have said that they would be. Yet still people say "we must have the toggle because of cash-shop tutus!" or the like...
Again, I feel I need to make it clear: I am not desperate for appearance items. I think the item design and variety will probably be excellent in Pantheon. What I *do* have a problem with is *if* they have appearance slots it will be largely a waste of effort if they have a toggle. People like me, who would have been very interested in using appearance slots, hunting for appearance items, crafting and trading and all that good stuff around that purpose, just won't bother, because you will never have any idea who is seeing it or not. Not to mention the general bizarre confusion of different people seeing different things when looking at other players.
Also - and this is a subjective personal view - I'm not interested in 'cosmetic' or 'appearance only' gear. What I would call 'non-adventuring' gear. All I would like is the ability to somehow store and re-use the look of the adventuring gear I earn in my adventuring life. I say this to be clear I don't want what some might have seen as cosmetic or transmog gear as we've seen it in most other games. As an example, my main desire is to get a set of gear that reflects the character I wish to portray - say something simple, like my rogue likes to dress in black - it's his thing. If I get a really good rogue dagger and it glows bright green, I might prefer to use the look of the blooded black iron dagger I had before.
Sarim said:I see only one reason why people would be against such a toggle:
Because they intend to run around in frog costumes (or whatever) in order to annoy other players who just want to immerse themselves in the world.
Or, it could be we don’t want everyone living in their own little world with 'I want a toggle for this’ and 'I want a toggle for that’ etc. Have you ever heard the phrase “You’re in our world now?” We will be in Terminus. The ways of Terminus is what chars will have to adapt to: that's immersion. An appearance toggle runs contrary to the tenets. For example, if a char wants the distinction of not having a helm that’s visible, then that char can work/adventure towards getting the helm of invisibility or the circlet of mist with no helm graphic. Perhaps char will be so fortunate to acquire an appearance altering item for a time, for strategic purposes. Here’s an idea: how about let’s opt for the world of Terminus and leave WoW in WoW. You’d think after 20 years of being disgusted with the changes that gave us mainstream is more than enough reason to leave absurd features like appearance toggle out! These iconic, terrible changes that gave way to mainstream should not ever be in Pantheon.
I'm quite confident a great diversity of gear will be world appropriate. I highly doubt VR is going to have candy canes or little Santa hats on Gnomes etc. I have faith in VR regarding appearance.
A case can be made for no extremely bright colors, IE Flourescent.
A case can be made for no silly costumes, IE santa claus suits or full plate for a wizard.
There is no descent argument for a toggle off of asthetic gear. You don't want to see what someone has to "motivate" you to go get it. That's the lamest excuse I have ever read. You want to make a quick judgement call to invite them to your group or not. If a person wants to display a sword that was very hard to get, they can, or they can cover it up with a bronze sword skin. Thats their choice, not yours.
I am not a roleplayer but I know how serious some people take it. This topic seriously boggles my mind how petty some people can be trying to dictate how they see other people. Sadly, a toggle is the only way to silence this large minority of people. Ive been for the toggle from the start because this argument will never go away and this is the only solution, sadly.
I say all of this with the mindset that cosmetic gear with be class/roll appropriate and fit into the world as stated above.
I would rather see an entire server of 2,000 people running around in 2,000 ridiculous costumes than for anyone to be able to dictate how other players express themselves.
Of course, I have confidence that VR won't go down that road of over-the-top or immersion breaking vanity sets, but even if they do, Terminus is their world and it's their choice to do so. Typically when a game reaches that point it's long passed the point of being worth playing for me anyway.
To be clear, I think there very much *is* a case for wanting prestige items to be displayed. To be impressed and enthused and inspired by others' gear. For the 'rags to riches' story we all love to see and to happen to us.
What I think people fail to understand (even though I keep explaining) - and this even appears to apply to Joppa and Brad when they have sometimes spoken of it (shocking! I'm not being a fanboi?!) - is appearance gear in no way stops any of that, in fact it enhances it.
Appearance gear is just gear that you use the appearance of. It is the same gear you earn from killing huge monsters and doing complex crafting, but used for its appearance instead of it's stats.
When you normally hunt gear, you use it because it's stats are advantageous. You may stick with that gear for a long time before you come across a stat upgrade.
But if you also have appearance gear slots, you might well keep seeking out gear that isn't necessarily advantageous for it's stats, but is for it's look.
That gear might (and probably will) be more difficult to obtain, more prestigeous and more indicative of your power than the stat item you keep for longer.
You won't be displaying anything inappropriate or weird. It's stat gear you're just not interested in the stats of it. You will often not want to use the appearance slots, because the gear with stats you like looks good, but if you want to keep hunting for gear that looks good, you can.
Any zone you go to will have many more reasons for being interested and staying to enjoy it, because you will be interested in items not just for their stats, but for their look too. You will fight monsters you might not have fought, take on challenges you might have not bothered, because you didn't just go for the monsters with 'stat' gear you wanted.
VR can't litter the place with a ton of stat gear - it would make it too easy to improve your power level - but they could add loads of gear that doesn't do much for stats, but gives you options for your look, and all of that gear could be as difficult, or even more difficult, to obtain.
Yes, it is super exciting to get an item that is both powerful and looks good, but it is terribly disappointing to get one that is powerful, but you dislike the look of. Get an item you like the look of and is powerful? Don't use and appearance slot over it! Get one you don't like the look of? Use an 'old' piece for its look and go hunting for another powerful piece that looks good and better reflects your status.
There isn't going to be an upgrade to a piece you have for many levels, but it's looking a bit 'old'? Hunt for one that is higher level, but doesn't have the stats you want, but *does* have a more powerful look you like.
I'm waffling now because I really want to help people to understand hehe.
I do think VR can achieve a good amount of appearance choices with itemisation. I think they will. But I think they would be missing a whole meta-game of 'collecting' gear for it's look. They would be missing an extra feature of the economy. Another reason to explore and adventure. More crafting options. More trading reasons. Another way for players to be pleased with and invested in their characters.
beautifully said:This topic seriously boggles my mind how petty some people can be trying to dictate how they see other people. Sadly, a toggle is the only way to silence this large minority of people. Ive been for the toggle from the start because this argument will never go away and this is the only solution, sadly.
I say all of this with the mindset that cosmetic gear with be class/roll appropriate and fit into the world as stated above.
Well, that minority will have to adapt in the world of Terminus and learn to quest/adventure and plan for the appearance they want. For example, a Circlet of Mist or Helm of Invisibility won't have a head graphic obv, so quest for it. For others, stats will also be important. Either way, the char will have to adventure for what he/she wants. Also, I strongly disagree with you where you say "a toggle is the only solution." It has already been proven that adapting to the world and seeking/planning your gear for stats and/or appearance works quite well instead, especially for the vision of this mmorpg. In Pantheon (unlike WoW), appearance should be something you work towards, not given to you by the click of a button. Why would you want such a feature that gave way to mainstream to be in Pantheon anyway? To "silence a minority of people" like you say? So that loud minority can have what they want "this way" and "that way?" That to me seems incredibly silly. I am noticing a tiny and loud pattern, and this is the exact pattern that many do NOT want in Pantheon. Imo - keep the toggle in World of Warcraft; not here. And the loud, tiny group that you mention can either learn to adapt to the world and immerse, or not. I do not know why you think changing the game is necessary to appease a tiny group of people, but I strongly disagree. I've watched it ruin mmorpg time and time again. I would think that is unacceptable for Pantheon.