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Trade Skills - Do you enjoy trade skilling?

    • 9115 posts
    July 6, 2020 4:02 AM PDT

    Trade Skills - Do you enjoy trade skilling and if so, which is your favourite trade skill and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    • 46 posts
    July 6, 2020 5:39 AM PDT

    It really depends, most of the time i don't mind if it's a small thing like skinning, mining and the likes, but tradeskills like leatherworking often becomes a chor to me.. i liked the system in Aion though, it had some interaction that made me kindof have fun when doing it.. ohh and depending on how it's viewed, Eve does it nice to, with ques and where it takes time to make stuff, it has always bugged me that it takes one click

    • 273 posts
    July 6, 2020 6:07 AM PDT

    I enjoy crafting and trade skills as a way of making plat/gold in the early game, but my biggest gripe is how, in most MMOs, trade skills are devalued the more a game progresses, often to the point of just being a burden or a waste of time.

    • 1399 posts
    July 6, 2020 6:41 AM PDT

    I agree with eunichron, thro most of (there were exceptions) WoW I found the trade skills themselves were worthless, Gathering was where the plat was made. it was senseless to DO anything with the items gathered other than sell them. There was the small leading group of trade skillers that may have earned with them. But if you were behind it was just a money sink to get no place.

    Really the only trade skill I enjoyed was Everquest Research for spell creation. I think the difference is these spells were needed as part of building your character.  I’m speaking about early EQ and Runes. The reworked Research is both over complicated and over simplified at the same time.

    Over Complicated- every combine has several 4-5 ingredients, all the ingredients save one are available right in the same spot from three different merchants in the same room… “the challenge” fight over the spot in the room where you can just pivot from merchant to merchant to purchase the item needed.  Seriously!? Is that suppose to be challenge or something? Just put them all on one merchant making you go from merchant to merchant in the same room, that’s just stupid. Or since they are all just purchased making it 3 purchased items does nothing to improve it.

    Over Simplified – there is only one farmed Item needed, Hides and only one place to get it for each level (until further expansions I guess they add places)

    I LIKED the old Rune, Words, Pages, system of early EQ, the runes (what I needed) were scattered all over and could be found off any mob anywhere, they could be purchased as vender trash by dumpster diving, bought and sold between players. Personally my largest source other than drops was a tip for teleporting.

     

    • 2419 posts
    July 6, 2020 7:13 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Trade Skills - Do you enjoy trade skilling and if so, which is your favourite trade skill and why? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    There have been games where I've tolerated tradeskills (EQ1), hated them (EQ2 and VG) and enjoyed them (EVE Online).  I focused on Alchemy and Baking early in EQ1 and used it in support of the guild while the secondary need was as a means for earning money.  It was reptitious and boring, but it filled those times where I wasn't in the mood for other activities.  EQ2 and VG were terrible and I soon quit both the tradeskills and the game.  EVE Online had some really fun tradeskills mostly because there were so many options.  Ships, modules, blueprint research, planetary mining, moon mining, T2 research along with having to set up all your own production lines inside towers.  Even getting materials to your towers and the built items out to the market was something you had to account for and manage.  It was complex, challenging and ultimately rewarding.  Everything in EVE is a consumable, nothing lasts long as you can get blown up in so many ways so there was a constant need for, well, everything.

    • 70 posts
    July 6, 2020 7:15 AM PDT

    Do I enjoy trade skilling ?...lets split it in two..
    Do I enjoy crafting ? ...Yes!
    Do I enjoy selling my crafted items to the public ? ...No
    Why not ? Too much competition from other players and dropped loot. Before you know it the Elite Armour of Indestructability is for sale at a 100 armorers.

     

    • 3852 posts
    July 6, 2020 7:20 AM PDT

    Yes. No favorite.

    • 70 posts
    July 6, 2020 7:20 AM PDT

    Sounds like Eve did it well by making everthing a consumable


    This post was edited by Qulash at July 6, 2020 7:20 AM PDT
    • 627 posts
    July 6, 2020 7:43 AM PDT
    I do like them overall, alc and herb is my fav. But I always thought its a flawed system, only depending on skill points and a need to be a certain lvl to do/pick certain resources.

    To leave behind a resource because you need more skill lvl, feels bad and is Unneeded.

    Make us abel to pick/mine/harvest anything but make the resource standout. Like a (perfect) lotus (fine) lotus (standart) lotus (ruined) lotus.

    So ur resolut of ur harvest will deppend on ur skill lvl, but ur able to harvest anything if you got the right tool for the job.
    • 14 posts
    July 6, 2020 8:17 AM PDT

    I enjoy that Shamans had Alchemy (Everquest) all to themselfes. Made sense and it gave crafting a bit flare of being special. 


    This post was edited by rfp84 at July 6, 2020 8:18 AM PDT
    • 99 posts
    July 6, 2020 8:48 AM PDT
    Yes and no, it sucks to run to town to use a crafting station to get 2 things made and realize im missing a ingredient and have to run back out to get the next skill point to learn something else. But honestly i quit using tradeskills and just use gathering skills because the effort it takes to make stuff for one item for me to use is pointless when i can sell mats and just buy that one item from someone that has time to put in the time sink. Then theres also GW2 style where if you want any of the good gear you have to put in the time sink so after spending countless hours lvling it all and you made your one BOP item you were done. Couldn't sell said items to recoup and anything that you could sell was so trivial its not worth it. But most games it comes to a point where the only professions worth lvling seem to be alchemy and enchanting armor smiths and weapon smith trades die as everyone gets the gear or gets better drops.
    • 201 posts
    July 6, 2020 9:17 AM PDT

    Yes. Essential part of the game for me, but only if it is time consuming, difficult and involved like Vanguard.  ABSOLUTELY NO click button watch bar move left to right over and over and over nonsense.  There should be few master armorers, master weapon makers etc. 

    • 1247 posts
    July 6, 2020 9:27 AM PDT

    antonius said:

    Yes. Essential part of the game for me, but only if it is time consuming, difficult and involved like Vanguard.  ABSOLUTELY NO click button watch bar move left to right over and over and over nonsense.  There should be few master armorers, master weapon makers etc. 

    Agreed. Also, mastery of certain tradeskills should be mandatory for some epic quests as well. 

    #communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels #worldsnotgames #sticktoyourvision #restoreMMORPG


    This post was edited by Syrif at July 6, 2020 9:37 AM PDT
    • 1785 posts
    July 6, 2020 9:53 AM PDT

    Short answer:  Yes.  But then again, I help administer Pantheon Crafters

     

    Long answer:

    Crafting and non-combat gameplay are very important to me.  For me, they are a large part of what makes an MMORPG a "world", rather than just a "game".  The more that the different non-combat systems such as crafting and gathering can engage me and involve me in interactions with other players, the better.

    With that said, there are many, many MMORPGs out there that have treated this gameplay the wrong way.  Some MMOs have made it a personal side game, with no real social value and the expectation that people will engage in it "just for fun".  Others have slapped in primitive, repetitive, and ultimately boring systems because they believe that the players pursuing it only care about the results and not about how those results are achieved.  Still others have had great concepts and gameplay systems but have ultimately structured their economies in a way that none of it ends up mattering in the long run.  Even more have tried to separate it too much from the adventuring/combat side of their gameplay, resulting in a paradigm where players only interact within their gameplay spheres, rather than among them.  There are a lot of pitfalls.

    I want Pantheon to really do this side of MMORPGs right and introduce gameplay that is fun and engaging, that is balanced and immersive, that is meaningful and stays meaningful over the long-term, and that connects with everything else in the world of Terminus.  I want Pantheon to not only be at least as good as some of its predecessors (such as Vanguard) in this area, but to innovate and really make this form of gameplay an integral part of the world - not in an "everyone does it" sort of way, but in a "people who do it are highly valued" sort of way.  Finally, I want crafting and gathering gameplay in Pantheon to not be the sum total of non-combat gameplay, but a core part of a larger whole.  This may take post-launch development to achieve, but ideally, Terminus should become a world where players can be renowned for many different combat and non-combat gameplay activities, and all of them are meaningful and have value to the player base as a whole.  Perhaps in a few years, your guild will have top-tier adventurers, craftspeople, gatherers, keepers, diplomats, military planners, and event planners.  Who knows?  But the larger a variety there can be in the end, the more Terminus will truly be the world that it's meant to be.

    I have a lot of opinions on all of this of course - it's something I think about, and write about, quite often.  I spend a lot of time lobbying the development team to make it something that everyone can enjoy and appreciate, whether they're the kind of person who wants to be a dedicated crafter and gatherer, or someone who just wants to dabble in it from time to time, or even just someone who doesn't want to do it themselves but who wants the players that do to have an enjoyable experience.  I could go on forever but I'll stop here.  If anyone is curious about more of my thoughts or those of others from the community, please feel free to take a look at the Pantheon Crafters forums.

     

    Also, as far as my favorite - I like them all, but I tend towards durable goods rather than consumables :)


    This post was edited by Nephele at July 6, 2020 10:05 AM PDT
    • 1315 posts
    July 6, 2020 10:27 AM PDT

    *Hate following Nef’s answers, I always feel like Animal on the Drums ranting until I eventual end with “What Nef said”.*

    That being said . . .

    I very much like the idea of crafting in game and pursue a lot of RL craft skills, however for crafting to be a good addition to a game a few things need to happen.

    1)      Crafting must always be a value-added process. 

    1. The final product needs to be more valuable than the raw materials.  This should be true for the vendor values and for the player market values.

    2)      Leveling crafting needs to be a time limited process not material limited.

    1. Simplest way to do that is it should take more time to craft 100 items than it takes to harvest the raw materials for 100 items and that time cannot be farmed out to other crafters.  Super rare material components for player desired items do not figure into the time to farm cost.

    3)      Crafting needs to have a clear place in the economy, preferably at the top.

    1. If all items, including named lore items, have an equivalent recipe then crafters should be able to duplicate said item and or extrapolate new items given the right materials.  Often those materials will come from harvesting equivalently dropped items or harvest nodes in the same challenge level.

    4)      Crafting NEEDS to have some form of designing/customizing.

    1. One Input – One Output  recipe systems are really just quest npcs you feed materials to that you build up your “craft faction” by sacrificing large amounts of materials to raise.  Real crafting requires the crafter to make some choice even if it is just the color of the accent layer.

    5)      Crafting needs to be for crafters not adventurers.

    1. Don’t have BoP adventuring rewards for crafting success.  All interactions between adventuring and crafting should be tradeable both directions.  The only BoP crafter rewards should be to enhance crafting.

    This post was edited by Trasak at July 6, 2020 10:34 AM PDT
    • 1399 posts
    July 6, 2020 10:43 AM PDT

    rfp84 said:

    I enjoy that Shamans had Alchemy (Everquest) all to themselfes. Made sense and it gave crafting a bit flare of being special. 

    Good point to bring up!
    In origanal EQ

    Wizards did Wizard spells and used Runes
    Enchanters did Enchanter spells and used Grimoire's Writ's and Tome's
    Mage did mage and used Words and, well all kinds of things

    Etc....
    The New system anybody can do
    Easiest example of the problem normalizing it created.

    In the Old system Guilds had a Wizard Reseacher, A Mage Researcher, A Necro, an Enchanter... etc.  Drops of research items were spread over these to who could make them for the other guild members in need.

    In the New System Guilds have "A" researcher who get's all the research drops and makes everything for everybody.

    Yes, the new system is more efficiant... it's not about that, it's about working together and Shareing in the spoils.

     

     

     

    • 2756 posts
    July 6, 2020 10:54 AM PDT

    I like to use trade skills to fill in the 'gaps' in my gear, so if I'm a warrior I tend to do smithing, if I'm a rogue, I might do leather-working, or alchemy.

    It's a nice relaxing thing to do and some horizontal progression to enjoy, though I wouldn't want to have to go into mass production and set up a shop in order to 'make it pay'.

    The 'fill in the gaps' thing works fine, unless there is an abundance of easy-to-get magical gear...

    I don't like crafted gear to be more powerful than dropped gear, *unless* the powerful crafted gear requires components that are just as rare and hard to get as the dropped gear.

    I quite like the idea a couple have mentioned of classes having unique trade skills, too, though it might be nice if those skills aren't only to benefit themselves or only their class? Maybe they could also make a few things other classes can use (for their trade skills, even).

    • 1921 posts
    July 6, 2020 10:56 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Trade Skills - Do you enjoy trade skilling and if so, which is your favourite trade skill and why? 

    Yes.  Favourite?  The one that has me providing for PC's and NPCs, just like NPC gatherers and NPC crafters.
    In other words, PC crafting should place the player in the world as another contributor in an existing loop of supply and consumption.
    If I supply superior harvestables, I should be rewarded.  If I supply superior finished goods and consumables, I should be rewarded.
    The world should change locally and regionally if many players are doing the same thing. 
    There should always be NPC demand for all goods, but the rewards for supplying them should not be monetary, ideally.
    Harvested raws should never sell for any amount of coin, directly.
    All crafting recipes should require fuel purchased from an NPC with social currency.

    The rest can be found on Pantheon Crafters, as per Nephele's post above.
    Myself, my preference for what I like to make leans towards customized consumables such as food with buffs to skills, spells, stats and also poisons that add weapon procs, and items that could be used in a luring, distraction, and temptation mechanic.

    • 1315 posts
    July 6, 2020 11:05 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    I quite like the idea a couple have mentioned of classes having unique trade skills, too, though it might be nice if those skills aren't only to benefit themselves or only their class? Maybe they could also make a few things other classes can use (for their trade skills, even).

    I've never been a fan of combat class locked non combat content.  Casters researching their own spells is fine as that’s just a class quest but alchemy being Shaman only never made any sense.  Other classes either had a lore history of doing alchemy Wizards/mages or a similar natural bond druids/rangers.

    Now it makes perfect sense to pick a craft to pursue that will synergies with your class but that should not be the only class that CAN pursue it.

    Per my statement of crafting being equal or better that drops its with the expectations you will actually be salvaging multiple drops of similar power to make said crafted items.  Its really just reforging 2-5 dropped items into one item that you actually want of similar power but you need to have the right crafting skill and raw materials to do it.


    This post was edited by Trasak at July 6, 2020 11:06 AM PDT
    • 1247 posts
    July 6, 2020 11:12 AM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    rfp84 said:

    I enjoy that Shamans had Alchemy (Everquest) all to themselfes. Made sense and it gave crafting a bit flare of being special. 

    Good point to bring up!
    In origanal EQ

    Wizards did Wizard spells and used Runes
    Enchanters did Enchanter spells and used Grimoire's Writ's and Tome's
    Mage did mage and used Words and, well all kinds of things

    Most definitely. I would like to see a system inspired by this.. along this line of thinking.


    This post was edited by Syrif at July 6, 2020 11:14 AM PDT
    • 1273 posts
    July 6, 2020 1:07 PM PDT

    I DO enjoy trade skills!  I don't know if I have a favorite.  In EQ I did fletching, all the way to the top.  In WoW I did a bunch but I didn't really feel like they were anything to be proud of in WoW because they were so easy to level up.

    In Pantheon if I play a ranger I'd like to do fletching again

    If I play a druid I'll probably consider herbalism

    I really don't know which ones I'll try, I guess it'll depend on which are available and how difficult they are to level up.  I just hope they take enough time and effor that you have to comit to one to be the best at it.  I probably won't do any of them if they are easy enough that everyone can just max out 3 or 4 tradeskills at will.  

    • 454 posts
    July 6, 2020 1:19 PM PDT

     

    I am hoping for trade skills to be important and economically viable and valuable.  I liked trade skills in UO a lot.  I liked being a blacksmith where I could repair other peoples stuff and that raised my skill level.  That won't be in Terminus, since there's no item degradation.  I want to make weapons or armor.  But the thing is if I make 10 steel swords and I can only sell them to a vendor for 5 copper each, I'll drop trade skills fast.  Trade skills should be economically viable to succeed.  If I'm level ten and I can make 10 plat adventuring (example) in an hour, but if I'm level ten blacksmith and make ten swords and only get 1 plat total, well I need to make money in order to stay alive in Terminus.  If only one or two people per server or per guild, can make money tradeskilling, that's a huge loss, in gameplay.  I think trade skills need to be easy to master and challenging to make great stuff.  Personally I'd make the best stuff on Terminus player made.  Better than raid drops.

    • 51 posts
    July 6, 2020 2:14 PM PDT

    I like the idea of tradeskills.  I will usually pick up one or 2 then let them fall by the wayside because they never seem to as good as what can be found in the world so it just really seems like a money sink.  Hoping Pantheon will have something different.

    • 1992 posts
    July 6, 2020 2:57 PM PDT

    Yes. I enjoy being able to make gear and supplies that my characters can use. My favorite skill is making my own armor, which could either be blacksmith or leathercrafter depending on what kind of armor is worn by the majority of my characters. It's my fav for the obvious reason that I get to USE the fruits of my labors every time I go adventuring on those characters.

    I find way less enjoyment in trying to sell my crafted goods in a market as I don't have any interest in playing a Massively Marketing Online game :) And the people (at least some of them) who DO like that consider success to include being able to dominate the market and drive out all competition.

    I also agree with Eunichron about the disappointment of getting to higher levels and finding that my armor making skills can't compete with the quality of dropped armor, and therefore giving up on it after spending a whole lot of time leveling up those skills.

    • 41 posts
    July 6, 2020 3:43 PM PDT

    Yes I do. I tend to lean towards something similar to blacksmithing but it will probably depend on what class I main for Pantheon. Harvesting can be useful and maybe even fun when I am waiting for a group invite.