Kilsin post about reputation and people’s responses got me thinking about how people keep track of reputation. Not only the how but how many people do you normally track?
I find it interesting how important people seem to think it is. Not just in this latest post but in many posts before this. In EQ the only game I have played that I even came close tracking other players I think I had 1-2 people on ignore list. Really just guessing it could have been zero. I know I added people to friends list that I liked. But even then, the list was small. Maybe 10-20 people?
When I think more on it, I never really tracked players. Definitely not what I would consider reputation tracking. If the game gave a dedicated area to track people, I think I would use it. I doubt I would use it for a negative reputation. I see no reason to take any time at all tracking people I do not like. Would rather just ignore them. But from past history I almost do not see the need as I rarely run into people I would want to ignore.
Some quick ideas for a player tracking window that may or may not be good ideas.
I'm not ashamed to admit that for years, my guild maintained a blacklist. People who had severely wronged one of us got added to it, and everyone else knew to watch out for them. We even shared it with other allied/like-minded guilds. In addition, if we saw more than one or two names from the same guild on there, the guild itself went on a "grey list" of sorts - basically, we communicated that the specific guild was not to be trusted either.
On the flipside, for a while in EQ2 and Vanguard we also maintained a "wall of awesome". The idea was that if players ran into someone else who was just really great, they could add that person's name to the list and everyone else in the guild would know.
One final thing worth mentioning might be EVE Online's standings system. EVE lets you set both personal and corporation/alliance standings towards any entity in the game, whether that's another player or their corporation/alliance. Standings range from -10 to +10. You can set up your UI so that people show up in different colors based on their effective standing. So for example, a lot of people set +10 standing for allies, and allies show up blue - whereas -10 will always show up red in the UI.
Where this gets really useful is that when you set corp or alliance standings, those are shared with everyone else in your corp/alliance. So if you set a corp standing towards someone of -10, then they show up red for everyone in your corporation.
With EVE being an open-world, full-PvP game, this was incredibly helpful for marking allies and known enemies, or even just people that really deserved to be shot in the face. It wasn't foolproof of course - EVE is full of intrigue and there were plenty of times where allies would stab each other in the back - but apart from not ever really being able to fully trust anyone, it did help for at least giving you an idea of who to trust less.
@Hokanu I have a hard enough time keeping track of people I do like it seems like a waste to try and remembering someone I do not like .
If VR really want to go the way of letting the community police itself then they need to give them the tools to do it.
These days it will be a bigger issue than it used to be. We know it's true.
I also think there should be public, not just personal, 'tools' to help, like a rating system.
If that gets abused, it should be designed around like any other system. It's not impossible and being 'tricky' isn't a reason to not do something that could be very beneficial.
I’m all for tracking and exposing the knuckleheads, but VR seems against it.
starblight said:
- Notes
- screenshot of the character or whatever I decide to take a screen shot of
- When last talked
- History of our conversation
- When last grouped
- What zone we last grouped in
- Last trade and what the trade was
Notes would be nice, and maybe last date of communication or grouping.
In EQ1, I would add people I grouped with to my friends list and then eventually not see them for a long time, and forget who they were or why I added them. :)
starblight said:Kilsin post about reputation and people’s responses got me thinking about how people keep track of reputation. Not only the how but how many people do you normally track?
I find it interesting how important people seem to think it is. Not just in this latest post but in many posts before this. In EQ the only game I have played that I even came close tracking other players I think I had 1-2 people on ignore list. Really just guessing it could have been zero. I know I added people to friends list that I liked. But even then, the list was small. Maybe 10-20 people?
When I think more on it, I never really tracked players. Definitely not what I would consider reputation tracking. If the game gave a dedicated area to track people, I think I would use it. I doubt I would use it for a negative reputation. I see no reason to take any time at all tracking people I do not like. Would rather just ignore them. But from past history I almost do not see the need as I rarely run into people I would want to ignore.
Some quick ideas for a player tracking window that may or may not be good ideas.
- Notes
- screenshot of the character or whatever I decide to take a screen shot of
- When last talked
- History of our conversation
- When last grouped
- What zone we last grouped in
- Last trade and what the trade was
I have a OneNote where I keep track of people on my personal blacklist. I track who they are, any alts I know of, what they did to earn their spot there, and when they did it. I do something similar for people on my personal "friends" list as well.
Ive found it isnt necessary to track anything if the server populations are well balanced in a game with slow leveling. (Though everyone still has their ignore list).
After the first 6 months or so you have crossed paths with everyone else who is max lvl at some point. It does help when you are ahead of the curve. If you are at least a little bit commited to the game and slightly fast at leveling you will see the same people around you repeatedly.
You either have direct experience or you have heard things from other people so you know who to avoid. Word of mouth happens readily so you end up knowing who the bad eggs are. By that point, if you are an active player and havent heard something negative about someone they are probably at least a competent player and a decent person (they probably won't ninja loot you).
Granted, if you dont play much or might not be as immersed in the community as others you might not be aware of what is happening on your server. If you progress slowly this becomes much more difficult to assess. If you stay in the top 1% or 10% or whatever there are that many less people that you interact with so it is easy to know everyone.
I keep track by my memory of them. If someone does something bad enough to warrant being on my blacklist (and it has to be pretty severe) then it'll stick. If it doesn't stick in my memory then they get a second chance.
People have bad days, or make a bad decision now and then, if it's a one time thing and not severe I just forget about it. In 20 years I've had maybe 5 people total on a "blacklist" in a game, or blocked on a forum/etc. It takes a lot for me to care enough to spend energy on that sort of thing.
On the flip side - I DO keep track of people who I enjoyed being around, or that did something nice for me, etc. Normaly just via friends list, but sometimes on a physical piece of paper near my computer along with a note specifying the reason.
starblight said:@Hokanu I have a hard enough time keeping track of people I do like it seems like a waste to try and remembering someone I do not like .
Haha Yeah, actually, you're not wrong there... I'd probably only remeber the ones that really got me fired up
Honestly op, I don't recall it being much of an issue.
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels #worldsnotgames #aradune #restoreMMORPG
@philo You make a good point about staying with the people leveling fast. Not only would this lower the amount of people in your immediate area of influence it also more likely to see the same people always logged on.
I am also figure some are better at remembering names. If people had world accounts, I think I would find it a lot easier but even then, remembering names is not one of my strong points. I see others that must have similar issues with comments on note keeping.
@Syrif You must be one of the lucky ones that find remembering names as one of your skills?
If someone said something disgusting in chat I would /ignore them and that was that. Sometimes I might give them the benefit of the doubt but the 3-strike rule never failed. I also got to know a number of folks through regular random PUGs. You quickly learn to identify the bad ones. However, when you are facing very challenging content and harsh penalties for failure, people tend to be less ass-hat-ish and actually focus more. I'd like to see that revived in Pantheon, but the world we live in has greatly changed and I doubt whether that playstyle, much less the attitude it takes to tolerate it, can be a reality ever again. However, we are all here because we want something that calls to that era ... so who knows? Maybe I will be proved wrong.
I think reputation can be classified in a box matrix, affected by 2 things, attitude and skill
1. Good attitude good skill / 2. good attitude bad skill
3. bad attitude good skill / 4. bad attitude bad skill
We all want, or think we are in section 1 however this is mostly hard core players, and even some PvP players.
Everyone agrees "toxic" players fall in category 4.
But categories 2 and 3 are rather grey, Consider the scenario where a top end polished player gets their patience tested by those in group 2. an event they are used to defeating may take forever and they can get testy, or fall into group 3 where some may ignore them just because of their attitude or "E-peen" related statements wrought from their frustration.
Interestingly, the hard core may lump filthy casuals in group 2, just on the bias of their not being as "uber" as they are but they might be group 1, and just not accelerating as fast.
I would say all new players fall in group 2. The pitfall is once you start to know your abilities, its easy to lean into group 3, with confidence comes pride that can also sound like arrogance.
I am all for having an in-game method to track players as long as it is on a player bases and not public. Meaning if you do not like somebody you will know via the reporting system; however, nobody else will.
One thing I remember from Ultima Online is when they incorporated the bounty system. If you were killed by another player you could put a bounty on them. Once a person killed a player with a bounty they would receive the entire bounty. This was of course abused by having a friend of the player killer kill them to receive the bounty reward. Not only does the PKer get to kill people but they get to get extra gold for the effort. What did I learn from this: regardless of the safeguards put in place somebody somewhere will find a way to exploit the system.
Letting a system remind a person who they had fun with or not fun with = I am ok with. Public way to shame people (or praise them) = able to be abused.
Black lists are less for your own sake and more for protecting/warning others so they can preemptively avoid negative experiences. Servers will likely have 2-5k active users and 20k total accounts and 1-8 characters per account. That could be as many as 160,000 names to keep track of. Even with slow localized leveling there will be a fair amount of anonymity in the general population of a server. Listing and tracking tools will help cut down on that and hold people more accountable for their actions.
@Manouk I would say that category 3 is the worst as they are capable of executing truly trollish behavior that category 4 just doesn’t have the skills to pull off. Category 3 is also the content blocking raid race PvPers “you didn’t engage fast enough so all your base are belong to us” group. Would like to know before hand to never group or do business with that category of player.
If you play on a server long enough, you end up learning most of the regulars.
I typically just go by memory. If an encounter with another player is bad enough that I remember them, then I'll avoid them in the future. If after a while, I happen to forget about it, then it was time for me to give them a second chance.
For good encounters with other players, where I particularly like grouping with someone, I'll add to my friends list.
Ignore list is used for spam bots and gold sellers. Or to deal with harassment messages, but that rarely ever happens.
Trasak said:Black lists are less for your own sake and more for protecting/warning others so they can preemptively avoid negative experiences. Servers will likely have 2-5k active users and 20k total accounts and 1-8 characters per account. That could be as many as 160,000 names to keep track of. Even with slow localized leveling there will be a fair amount of anonymity in the general population of a server. Listing and tracking tools will help cut down on that and hold people more accountable for their actions.
@Manouk I would say that category 3 is the worst as they are capable of executing truly trollish behavior that category 4 just doesn’t have the skills to pull off. Category 3 is also the content blocking raid race PvPers “you didn’t engage fast enough so all your base are belong to us” group. Would like to know before hand to never group or do business with that category of player.
I was about to say something similar re. Manouk's category 3. Someone who knows the game well and *still* behaves badly (though they presumably know they shouldn't and don't need to in order to progress well) is the worst.
Being a 'skilled' player doesn't excuse toxic behaviour. Unfortunately, they often get away with it because they are often tolerated due to their ability (for a good guild) or positively celebrated (by a guild of baddies).
I have tracked quality players, the point was to either recruit or play with them in the future.
I rarely track negative people or "bad" players, I find it a waste of time and there sort of irrelevant overall with how I tend to play.
I rather keep myself surrounded by like minded individuals and above average players with a select crowd.
philo said:Ive found it isnt necessary to track anything if the server populations are well balanced in a game with slow leveling. (Though everyone still has their ignore list).
After the first 6 months or so you have crossed paths with everyone else who is max lvl at some point. It does help when you are ahead of the curve. If you are at least a little bit commited to the game and slightly fast at leveling you will see the same people around you repeatedly.
You either have direct experience or you have heard things from other people so you know who to avoid. Word of mouth happens readily so you end up knowing who the bad eggs are. By that point, if you are an active player and havent heard something negative about someone they are probably at least a competent player and a decent person (they probably won't ninja loot you).
Granted, if you dont play much or might not be as immersed in the community as others you might not be aware of what is happening on your server. If you progress slowly this becomes much more difficult to assess. If you stay in the top 1% or 10% or whatever there are that many less people that you interact with so it is easy to know everyone.
Exactly my experience. I never was in need of notes.
If you can't rename your char or switch servers (and both was not possible for a long time in eq) you know the players who regularly play at the same time as you at some point, or at least did hear good / bad things about him / her.