Forums » The Rogue

Rogue Must haves

    • 135 posts
    March 29, 2016 9:25 AM PDT

    bone crack; bone splinter: dislodge bone; bludgeon?  Just a few thoughts...

    • 38 posts
    April 9, 2016 9:22 AM PDT

    Here's my thoughts on the Rogue (EQ Rogue Veteran)

    -Backstab

    Absolutely. Essential. Rogues should be able to backstab nearly everything. Rogues are the masters of understanding anatomy, even a Skeleton has it's brittle and weak points, and the Rogue should be able to exploit that. Maybe incorporate something like "Study Anatomy" so Rogues are able to get something similar to backstab depending on what Race or Type of NPC they are fighting. For instance, if a Rogue were to select a skeleton as target (or even tab target them), Backstab would namechange to "Spine Crush" or something similar. This keeps the "function" of backstab the same but compensates for different species the Rogue will be attacking and adding to the lore. I like this idea a lot. I did feel the damage was tuned up a bit, but keep in mind Rogues can't tank. So it's not like Rogues are going to be running around and soloing everything, let's be realists here. Backstab is one of the main contributors when it comes to Rogue output, and it makes sense. People complaining about it have obviously never seen other classes that had gross amounts of damage like Wizard with KEI and Mana-Infuse spamming their heaviest hitters... Rogues are SUPPOSED to be damage dealers!

    -Hide and Sneak

    Again, essential. Rogue's and Monks were keystone to Raid and Dungeon progressing. In tight quarters with lot's of doorways and minimal view, Rogues were the go-to class to scout ahead and report findings to the tank or puller on where to go next. This keeps the group safe while minimizing risk to everyone there. It just makes sense. I saw somewhere in this thread where someone complained about Rogues being invisible in a room where it is well lit. I mean come on now, this is a fantasy world and Rogues should be considered Magical to a degree. Rogues are able to draw on shadows to conceal themselves, they are masters of deception and misdirection. Don't take that away from them. The most fun I had was exploration as a Rogue, I wasn't able to kill anything but I sure as heck could creep on by!

    -Poisonmaking

    Should be available and used by most, if not all Rogues. This is key to helping your group. If you do not have a slow or a tank that's having a difficult time holding aggro, Rogues can craft up some poisons that will help with this! Shouldn't have to go over this one very much, I think Poisonmaking should definitely be included.

    -Pick Lock/Sense Traps/Disarm Traps/Pick Pocket

    All should be included. I can think of so many unique additions to the Pantheon world that would add benefit to having a Rogue in the group. Dungeons with trapped doorways, hidden chests, undamageable objects like a "loose candle holder" or "oddly-textured brick" that the Rogue is able to interact with. Imagine a bonus area in a raid that the Rogue will have to sneak up to a big undamageable NPC and steal a key from him in order to get to a bonus boss or chest. Most raids and groups will probably have Rogues, not all of them will, but what a Rogue lacks in ranged abilities, kiting, tanking, and even healing should be made up for by his UTILITY to the group. How useful he is by using his stealth to his advantage.

    These are just some small things I have in mind, but I'm excited to see what Kilsin pushes for and what Pantheon does with the Rogue class.

    • 1 posts
    July 26, 2016 5:29 AM PDT

    My very first MMO toon was a Povar Rogue, and I was hooked forever on the Rogue class.

    Let the CC classes do CC.

    But.. Give the Rogues abilities as pullers. Similar to the Sneak/Pulls of old EQ. I do not think it was ever "proven", but Sneak/Pulling seemed to make a difference. I was ALWAYS the group puller, and I loved it. I am not talking anything too over powered, like guarantied single pulls, but rather a lesser chance of getting the whole room in your lap.

    Also.. CR skills are important, especially if the corpes runs of old are left in place. No mass dragging either, one body at a time.

    And that leads to.. ESCAPE. While giving a class the ability to remove themselves from the hate list completely is extremely powerful, it never really lead to anything but less time spent gathering up the mess after a wipe.

    Wade

     

    • 86 posts
    August 21, 2016 11:02 AM PDT

    Illusion masks... Just saying, it needs to happen. The ability to mimick other races and disguise oneself for our own nefarious trickery.

    • 10 posts
    September 11, 2016 9:39 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    I can't talk much about this yet but what I can say that has already been said is that weapons will matter, my daggers, for instance, will not be as effective against undead skeletons as a mace or club would for the exact reasons you mentioned, they are just a walking pile of bones with nothing much to stab as for individual abilities, we have not discussed that much of the mechanic yet but more will come as development progresses ;)

     

    Thats a mechanic Meridian 59 already had 1996. I liked it.

    • Moderator
    • 7418 posts
    September 11, 2016 6:23 PM PDT

    Chett said:

    Kilsin said:

    I can't talk much about this yet but what I can say that has already been said is that weapons will matter, my daggers, for instance, will not be as effective against undead skeletons as a mace or club would for the exact reasons you mentioned, they are just a walking pile of bones with nothing much to stab as for individual abilities, we have not discussed that much of the mechanic yet but more will come as development progresses ;)

     

    Thats a mechanic Meridian 59 already had 1996. I liked it.

    Other games have used it too, it works well if done properly ;)

    • 430 posts
    September 12, 2016 12:01 PM PDT

    First thing, some related on-topic idea documents I wrote several years ago when another MMO was in pre-production:
    distraction, luring, tempting
    thieving, stealing, burglary
    trap ideas

    There's some good ideas in there and I think many of them would apply to Pantheon.  Have a read, and feel free to PM me if anything requires clarification or more detail.

    And some other notes I wrote up this morning:
    Regarding weapon types: (Currently, rogues are explicitly said to use piercing, "militaristic", ranged and simple weapons)
    Blunt weapon, less poison effectiveness, bruises, contusions, fractures, -DEX on target, slows or stun
    Slashing weapon, average poison effectiveness, dots that grow larger over time, bleeds, -STR on target, weakness or silence
    Piercing weapon, backstab, greater poison effectiveness (injection), -INT on target, interrupts

    I like the idea that the longer a Rogue is behind a creature, perhaps tied to time, # of hits, backstabs or crits, progressively more negative effects start to stack up on the target.  This leads to an increase of hate which has to be balanced by the tank and the rogue both working together.  Optionally, the ability to rechannel a portion of hate away from the rogue (I believe VG and EQ2 had this feature) to another group member may be desirable.  Optionally, this rechannel may provide a buff or class-appropriate special ability to the recipient.

    As an example, if a rogue was using a blunt weapon, after the first x seconds or after the first crit or backstab a dex debuff (contusion) is placed on the target, the second interval or application results in a bruise (minor slow effect), and the third is a fracture, which could be a stun.  Then each refresh amplifies these effects as long as the rogue is on the same target.
    Slightly different negative effects, depending on weapon type, as enumerated above.  Making such a mechanic tied to "time on target" is the easiest implementation, but it could be a more active approach (tied to "slice" or backstab) or crits, which might make it more about gear, rather than combat awareness, but would be the least reliable.  It all depends on design goals for the class.

    Alternately, backstab could be available for all weapon types, but the negative effects could pile up based on different triggers per weapon type.
    So, for example, blunt weapons could add negative effects over time.  Slashing weapons could add them based on crits (or "Slices?").  Stabbing weapons could add them based on backstabs.  Lots of options.

    Poison types: race specific? stat debuffs, dd, dot, -aggro, interrupts/stuns, varying damage types, silence, slow, contagions, damage-from-casting. (see trap PDF above, end of the PDF lists effects)
    Problem with many of these is everyone just uses stuns without an escalating CC immunity effect on the target, which leads to other issues, if in place.  If an escalating CC immunity effect mechanic is in play, DPS is king, and no-one uses CC outside of a one-time mez.  Bit of a balancing act, there.

    Traps, not just for dungeon delving, but larger mechanics are possible related to stealing, burglary, NPC housing, guild houses, procedural quests. Asynchronous search/disarm/disable/flag/recover.  interaction object only the rogue sees.  Some traps are permanent.  Disarm at minimum for passage by group.  Rogue either actively searches for, or naturally detects/hears/smells mechanisms.  Perception system tie-in? (more in PDFs above)

    Consumable devices: ( Leads to class specific crafting? More in a PDF above about distraction & luring)
    Diversion (sound, sight, smell), smoke bomb, flash powder, garotte, caltrops; Provides lull, -aggro, mez, silence, snare respectively.

    Fun ability: Removal of another player's DoT from a creature with the ability to reapply & refresh it on the next creature, repeat as desired.  Refresh chance based on crits? time on target? backstabs? particular poison?

    And of course, the always important disclaimer; None of the above should be so powerful that they supercede the Iconic Ability of another class.  Some Ability Arsenal overlap is fine, though.

    Warning! Speculative Class Envy ahead!
    Improvised Alchemy as an iconic ability, without a deterministic outcome seems like a recipe for disappointment. Will need to see the implementation on that one, but compared to the Shaman (yes, yes, I know, class envy already) the Rogue IA is a bit 'meh'.  
    However, I should note that the current Rogue description has me looking at playing an Enchanter or Shaman instead, simply because of the inevitable trials and tribulations that most melee DPS go through in these games.  My opinion is in flux, but a bit on the negative at the moment based on the current class description.

    Put another way, there will always be DPS, and everyone contributes that.  If the Rogue is just MOAR DPS, ok, that's fine, but it likely won't be enough to attract me this time around, unless there's something really special in there in a future reveal.  I mean, just for a simple comparison, Ranged (non-magic) DPS is superior for a bunch of reasons, and likely ranged magic DPS even superior to that, given the rather spectacular extra abilities magic users typically get.
    If you're performing your role, and indeed, if everyone is, then 'being squishy' actually means very little, as ranged classes aren't getting hit, ~ever.  Been on enough raids where my role was "drag the corpses slower than the caster with superior invis", not really overjoyed at that prospect again.

    If the glass is never broken, then the glass in glass cannon is gone, leaving... Cannon. :)  A cannon with ports, mez's, dd, dots, cc, invis, haste, buffs, bind/recall, pets, teleports, etc versus a non-warrior melee DPS is problematic.  Sure, you can get by on the charity of your friends, and there are counter points to all these arguments, but I think Pantheon will have a real challenge attracting players to the Rogue class given the current target demographic includes people who will have played them many times before, in EQ1, EQ2, and Vanguard, and more.  Twice bitten, thrice shy? heheh.

    • 9 posts
    September 13, 2016 10:42 AM PDT

    Brutal high damage Backstabs & Ravage (ala VSoH)

    Sleep/poison darts, Flash powder for disruption, alchemy concoctions, poisons, blackjack (stun/mez), evac

    Stealth, Stealth attacks, DoTs (lacerate, eviscerate, open wounds etc)

    Exploit weaknesses


    This post was edited by Veltan at November 5, 2017 4:55 PM PST
    • 27 posts
    November 1, 2016 4:33 PM PDT

    I really want more than just melee DPS for rogues. Don't get me wrong I love DPS characters that's why I choose them. However, having said that I would love to see them emphasize the utility of a rogue i.e. picking locks, picking pockets and most especially disabiling traps.

    • 159 posts
    November 10, 2016 3:46 PM PST

    Cloaks.

    • 12 posts
    December 10, 2016 11:54 AM PST
    Safe Fall. The rogue and the monk should be adept with their footwork
    • 9 posts
    December 27, 2016 6:05 PM PST

    I have played a rog in many different games and there are a lot of gimmicks each game trys to apply to the class to "round them out" and make up for their lack of mana and overall utility outside of pure dps.  Things that were touch on in this conversation line lock pick, sense trap, disarm trap, vanish, poisons and this list goes on. These things can be fun but never really phased my overall enjoyment of a rog so long as a few simple requirements are met.

    1. I want to go anywhere or at least have the ability to move around place that others cannot do so as easily with some sort of sneak/hide ability. I want to make it to the bottom of Guk to get a Mask of Deception at level 13 or make it to a Spore King camp while other don’t get the invite because they are stuck at the zone line. I want to be the raid saving corpse dragger which in my experience has made up of any other class deficit on many occasions.
    2. I want to have very high non-mana based dps output. I don’t have to burst harder than a wizard, but when a pull goes bad and there are 10 mobs to take down, I want to be the one who maxed the total damage out put across ALL the mobs which saved the group while everyone else is sitting and meding and not really responsible for killing the last 5 or 6 mobs.
    3. I’d toss Pick Lock in to this list for all but the most hard core of zones/doors since it support the go anywhere philosophy.

    To me that is what makes a rog and what has always drawn me to play one in any game ive tried. Rogs kill stuff while the rest of the group/guild is getting ready or when things have gone poorly. With what ive experienced in EQ/P99, WoW, EQ2 and others, all the tricks in the world mean nothing if a rog does not fulfilled those simple functions.

    • 19 posts
    June 1, 2017 1:42 PM PDT

    For me personally there is little point in having high DPS without the ability to dump the aggro it generates so clearly a skill that allows aggro reduction to offset and allow the Rogue to do it primary role efficiently and not just rely on tanks having massive aggro generation. At certain points in EQs life cycle getting aggro was essentially ~instant death for a rogue.. and from pre alpha streams the current control apperars to be MOB relative high DPS to force grouping... so yeah anything that allows the rogue to manage its aggro while maintaining its dps is a must.

    From a DPS perspective aggro reduction is what allows Rogues to out damage other classes in group scenarios and is its defining combat skill IMO.

    Also some form of snare to stop runners.. lots of logical implementations from specific damage, mechanical (nets, Bolas) through poisons and weapon procs etc .. dont like random weapon procs as the sole initiator as needs to be controllable imo. I did notice in the latest stream no character had any runner control though outside of a direct root/mez which doesnt really help in that scenario...but there must be some planned.


    This post was edited by rocketmagnet at June 1, 2017 1:44 PM PDT
    • 1 posts
    June 3, 2017 7:19 AM PDT

    Gawd said:

    Chaam said:

    For me the must haves for a Rogue to keep it unique

    1)  Backstab, high damage

    2)  Stealth in and out of combat as long as the Rogue does not have agro

    3)  Proficient with Daggers and Bow

    4)  Short/Long sword should reduce Rogue damage

    5)  Lots of different types of Rogue only crafted Poisons.

     

    Other Items that are important

     

    Pick Pocket / Pick Locks,  PP to obtain various items. 

    The armor they wear should reflect the dps output and survivability.  Lighter armor = more DPS and more squissie and so on.  I am sure there is alot more in my head.

     

    If a Rogue jumps out of a tree or off a wall and hits you the Rogue DPS should be Doubled or more depending on the force from the jump as well.

     

    imo

    yup i like it sounds like a rogue to me!

     

    ^^ This!

    • 54 posts
    August 22, 2017 2:30 PM PDT

    What i like about playing rogue is all about planning the next fight, stealth and cunning. A true rogue never does anything the way you would think. What i liked in several games involving a rogue class i played through the years was the ability to craft and lay traps and other self-made consumables. It's around the first thing i think about. Rogues can specialize in mechanics, not all of them belong to the dagger stealth/backstab archetype. Not all of them, not all the time to the least. Playing with enemy position and aggro, using lures to attract foes to a trap, mixing traps with stealth or ranged attacks, choosing your trap depending on the situation and on the resources at your diposal feels really great. With a decent crafting section and challenging fights, using traps feels like a very interesting option. Traps can vary from improvised contraptions sitting on a campfire, to natural options in the forest and also high engineering for the masters of this art crafting with a pro workbench in a city or a lair. This gameplay can be very deep. I wrote a topic about trap ideas, grenades and fletching special arrows some time ago if you like :

     

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5215/traps-and-other-combat-consumables

     

    Cheers


    This post was edited by Gideon at August 22, 2017 2:39 PM PDT
    • 19 posts
    August 28, 2017 3:26 AM PDT

    Not sure how well those ideas would function in a group based game, they all sound great for a solo experience but organising a pull around one class?. Game boils down to Tank/Heal/DPS/CC and looking at the combat videos it's lots of constant pulling with multi mob pulls so any traps would have to offer significant benifits or its not worth the effort. If Rogues can solo (I seriously doubt it) then this would be a great mechanism for them to as the only real way to solo is to be alble to damage a mob without it being able to hit you back, so stun lock, roots/snares + Range etc so yeah your ideas are great for this scenario.

    • 265 posts
    October 4, 2017 5:06 PM PDT

    I have a dumb Rogue question...  I love Rogues.  All I play are Rogues.  EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, you name it.  Even my alts were Rogues.

     

    I hated in Vanguard, and when my daughter plays her WoW nonsense...  You can still see Rogues when they sneak/hide.  That's nonsense, and a super buzz-kill.  Will Rogues be back to being unseen like they were in EQ?

    • 275 posts
    October 14, 2017 11:03 PM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Furty said:

    Rogue must haves were pretty much summed up in the second post lol. 

    Unfortunately, the first page and posts prior to 2015 got archived, so the quote was the only thing that saved Chaams post, so it may look a bit weird in some subforums.

     

    Thats what is going on!  I was absolutely confused.