Forums » The Enchanter

Enchanter Spells - [Evaluation/Critique]

    • 456 posts
    June 7, 2020 3:29 AM PDT

    I've been meaning to post a review on the current known abilities for the Enchanter class but never got around to doing it. Those who are familiar with the class in Everquest 1 would probably agree that the class was a bit ahead of its time. That's evident seeing as half of the abilities listed in Pantheon for Enchanter are taken from the Everquest class 20+ years later. That's not a dig at Chris or whoever decided on the spells as most of the copied abilities are staples for a class of this type.

    The staple spells are as follows...

    Example: ■ Pantheon Spell (Everquest variant)

    ■ Shelter (Shielding Line)

    ■ Lyrith's Grace (Alliance Line)

    ■ Enshire's Faint Whisper (Clarity Line)

    ■ Illusions (Illusion: Race)

    ■ Squee's Mimicry (Minor Illusion)

    ■ Illusion Graft: Exhaustion (Deeds Line - Melee Slow)

    ■ Forceful Will (Tashan Line)

    ■ Control Breath (Pacify Line)

    ■ Ghaven's Wild Display (Color Stun Line)

    ■ Mesmerize (Mesmerize Line of Same Name)

    ■ Facinate (AE Mez Line of Same Name)

    ■ Charm (Charm Line of Same Name)

    ■ Dire Charm (Permanent Charm of the Same Name)

    ■ Thought Thief (Memory Blur)

    ■ Enshire's Mana Guzzle (Theft of Thought)

     

    With the above spells shared with the Everquest 1 Enchanter, there are also additional new spells that weren't available to the class in the previous game. I'll critique them one by one. Let me know of any criticisms you felt are unfair or any you may agree with. Also, if you have any ideas or changes of your own, please let post them in your comment.

    Runeskin: Passive Ability. Causes you to naturally absorb X% of incoming damage. Once that amount of damage has been absorbed, Runeskin will fade for Y duration before passively reactivating at full effect. Runeskin’s damage absorption capacity will slowly replenish over time when not taking damage.

    ► Although this would have been in the 'copied' list, the function is dissimilar enough to where it is effectively a new spell. This is quite possibly one of the more surprising abilities I read given that it was asked by the Enchanter community in the year 2000 when Abashi (Gordon Wrinn) visited the website 'The Runes' and asked us for changes we would like to see. He did this for other classes as well in their respective class forums (Monkly Business, Druid's Grove, etc). Given how wonky and expensive the Rune line was after Rune 3, we asked for either a Rune that didn't cost a reagent or allow it to be a buff like Symbol, halve the amount and give it a regenerative function. They didn't do anything until Planes of Power with Arcane Rune and the AA Eldritch Rune. Chris came around with this one as though he read the forums. My guess is it was coincidence. Either way, it's an excellent addition as it allows that Enchanter to be tanky enough to deal with situational damage.

    Lyrith's Embellishment: Passive Ability. Your skill with physical enchantment and illusions has made you adept in the art of persuasion. Your buy prices will be decreased and your sell prices will be increased with most vendors.

    ► I didn't place this on the 'questionable' list seeing as it has some use. It's a good ability overall but may be misused. You'll have people making Enchanter alts for the distinct purpose of selling or buying items from vendors. Charisma did this in Everquest 1 and allowed for every class to have the means to alter the price of goods. I'd probably get rid of it and push this back onto Charisma and allow for a wider range than Everquest 1 had. In Everquest 1, the range was 0 to 135 (at Indifferent faction). Keep in mind, Charisma capped at 255. In Pantheon, it should befall on Charisma again but allow the range to be from 0 to whatever the max stat cap is and for the price adjustment coefficient.

    Illusion Graft: Acuity: You graft an illusion into your ally’s mind, granting them an increased sense of mental acuity. While active, your ally’s Spell-Casting Speed will be increased by X%.

    ► Clerics in Everquest 1 were given this spell in Planes of Power. It began with Blessing of Piety. Overall a good spell and it makes perfect sense it would be given to Enchanters to go along with their melee haste line. The only question I have is on whether or not this works on melee abilities with a use time and or their Cooldowns and if not, does Melee Haste do that? 

    Squee's Grand Foolery: Epic Ability. Enchanters can evolve Squee’s Mimicry into Squee’s Grand Foolery, casting the illusion on all members of their group for X duration.

    ► A group version of Squee's. This can be useful for a group to be non-KOS and safely rez and/or med up. This can also be used in conjunction with Thought Thief (memory blur) as a type of group FD. It has a number of uses and overall is a great addition. On top of that, it can be fun within a group setting.

    Rend the Mind: You rend your target’s mind with a burst of mental energy, dealing Magic damage and restoring some Mana to you and your group members.

    ► I'm of the sort where I would like to see the Enchanter less reliant on dealing actual direct damage. I understand that's my personal belief and given that, this spell fits quite well within the class. Namely because of the mana return component to it. I would make a few changes however. When cast, it should give more mana than it currently does by 200% but the mana is given over 18 seconds in three ticks. You don't want to see an Enchanter chain nuking in a group like NickHOTs was doing in his video. At one point he was clipping the Wizard's Damage. You want it to be situational and used in between other casts if and when you can spare it. The class shouldn't be reliant on direct damage or DoTs (especially not DoTs) but instead, their force multiplication through their group and Charm or similar spells.

    Another idea is when cast instead of dealing direct damage, for 6 or 12 seconds, the target takes damage every time it deals damage with a 1 second reuse on application. When this happens mana is administered to the group. Have the maximum amount (6 or 18 times) total be equivalent to 300% the current return. The rate can of course be adjusted for balance.

    Malison's Lucid Dream/Malison's Lucid Nightmare: [Dream] - Epic Ability. You empower your ally’s imagination, causing their abilities to have no resource cost for the duration. When you cast this ability on your ally, it will automatically apply Malison’s Lucid Nightmare to your Offensive target. You may not cast this ability on yourself. [Nightmare] - Epic Ability. You take control of your enemy’s reality, causing all of their attacks and abilities to have no effect. This ability shares the same duration as Malison’s Lucid Dream. If this target is not killed while Malison’s Lucid Nightmare is active, all resources your Defensive target has spent during its duration will be retroactively lost. Additionally, the collective damage done to this target while the effect was active will be discharged in full at a random member of your group.

    ► While listed separately, it's the same spell that functions as separate effects upon cast. This is quite possibly one of the most powerful and equally dangerous spells in the game. I'm a bit weary of having it in the game given the massive gap between the skill floor and skill ceiling with this class. Because of how complicated it is, I'll hold off discussing it and save for when it's tested by me or others within a stream.

    Eyumai's Dulling: You weaken the materials in your enemy’s weapons, lowering the damage they are capable of dealing.

    ► Does this ability work with all targets or only those with weapons? It's a good ability but I would highly suggest a change to the fundamental relationship between the Enchanter and the Shaman. Remove the Melee Slow from the Enchanter and allow the Shaman to retain it. Remove the Spell Slow function with it also as it won't be all that helpful when you can just Hush (silence) your target. Then, increase the potency of Eyumai's Dulling and allow it to effect any target regardless if they're holding a weapon or not. This way a Shaman and Enchanter in group can stack theirs like normal but instead, when the Enchanter is without a Shaman, he doesn't have to cast two spells, the Slow and Dulling. You can even adjust a stacking coefficient reduction so when a Shaman and Enchanter stack the spells, it will have the same potency as their Slow now with the lesser Dulling in the current form.

    Slow doesn't actually give a flat reduction, it's dependent on how many times a target hits per round and base speed as well as base delay. Let's pretend the values were the same, the change would work like this...

    Currently:

    Level 30 Shaman Slow = 20%

    Level 30 Enchanter Slow = 12% (20% spell slow component included)

    Level 30 Enchanter Dulling = 8%

    Combined Enchanter Slow + Enchanter Dulling = 20%

    Combined Shaman Slow + Enchanter Dulling = 28%

     

    Altered:

    Level 30 Enchanter Slow = 20%

    Level 30 Enchanter Slow = Removed

    Level 30 Enchanter Dulling = 15%

    Combined Shaman Slow + Enchanter Dulling = 35%

    Combined Shaman Slow + Enchanter Dulling * 50% stack reduction coefficient on Enchanter Dulling = 27.5%

     

    Hush: Silences your enemy, making them unable to cast spells for X duration. This ability also interrupts spell casting.

    ► Excellent spell. Nothing else to add other than it should be a fast cast with a bit of a recast. Something in the realm of 20-30 second recast with a duration of 15 seconds. The Enchanter should have to decide which NPC honestly deserves this.

    Shock and Awe: Confuse your target with bizarre imaginings, causing them to attack the nearest enemy for a short time.

    ► Excellent spell, but I question how this will work with Charm. Can you use it while you have another mob Charmed? My hope is that when cast it will refuse to attack mezzed targets, otherwise this will see very little use. If you wanted, you could remove Charm and give this a set duration of 30 or so seconds and where upon break it won't try to attack the Enchanter. Then give it a 30 or 45 second recast. It's going to have to operate differently from Charm. I don't want this to be Charm but without the control factor so to speak. This and Charm are complex topics however and I addressed them in another post which I linked at the bottom of this topic.

     

    Below are a list of spells that make absolutely no sense or don't seem feasible in the current design of the game or in the current class dynamics.

    Inside VoicePassive Ability. The longer your target has been under the effects of your Mesmerizing abilities, the less likely they will be to resist your Charm abilities.

    ► All this does is create a circumstance where an Enchanter will then Mesmerize a target and keep it Mesmerized until the threshold is reached, then Charm. It's a bit odd too given that we don't typically Mesmerize something then Charm it when in a group setting. We simply Charm it and use it for that fight. Does it last for only a set duration? Do you have to cast Mesmerize repeatedly or is it based on the duration expired from the Mesmerize to get the full effect? In general, this isn't an all that well thought out passive ability. Something else in its place would be nice.

    Mental Terraformer: Passive. Epic Skill. Your Charm spells now have a small innate chance to permanently Charm your target. Permanent Charm will break when you die or zone.

    ► The concept of a permanent Charm was discussed in another thread I made, so I won't speak on that issue here. I'll say generally that the concept is probably not the best idea due to the mechanics and how they can be 'gamed'. It's a bit odd an Enchanter has this ability but also a similar function on Dire Charm and they stack. From the outside looking in, it looks like the relationship between the abilities was 'phoned in'. I would remove this and instead function as an early alert. With this new passive, you're alerted six seconds before charm is to break. You receive a flash to the screen that flashes three times, once every two seconds.

    Malison's Crushing Grip: Applies intense pressure to your target’s brain, causing Magic damage over time. While active, your target’s Magic Resistance will decrease by X every Y seconds.

    ► Damage Over Time spells should not be within the Enchanter class. In Everquest 1 we rarely if ever cast them for the damage. When we did, it was to stack the melee stat reduction function, notably Strength and AC. This along with the Weakness and Incapacitate lines in Everquest 1, allowed for a fairly noticeable reduction in raid mob damage and an increase in melee DPS output for the raid. Given Enchanter's reliance on Mesmerize and other CC, this simply shouldn't exist. They aren't direct DPS and shouldn't have mediocre DoTs. The Magic Resistance drain is also redundant with Forceful Will. In general, I'd remove this and replace it with something more thought out and fitting for the class as a Support/Control archetype.

    Illusion GraftHarm: You graft an illusion into your enemy’s mind, overwhelming them with the sense of being harmed. While active, your target will be inflicted with Magic damage over time. The damage of this ability will not break the Mesmerize effect. Any damage beyond what this ability inflicts will break the illusion and cause this effect to end.

    ► The wording may need to be cleared up. Does this Mesmerize the target and do damage over time or does it only act as a DoT that won't break any of your Mesmerize spells? Either way, the idea of a DoT that works on a Mesmerized target is incredibly odd. While I can see the argument that you're effectively whittling down a target through their slumber, it makes soloing a 'faceroll'. Even if inefficient, you can mana drain the target and with mana regen, you simply cast this on the target and kill them while mesmerized with little to no risk to you. If that's not how it functions, what's the purpose? You wouldn't use it in the group since you don't want the Mesmerized target to now have aggro on you due to the damage you've done. I'd say, remove it and replace it with something else more fitting.

    Foolish Fire: You create a wisp of enchanted light that darts and dances around your target, Mesmerizing them. After X seconds the wisp will begin traveling aimlessly around the area with your target following. Target will remain Mesmerized until the effect ends. You may end this effect at any time. Any damage to the target will break the effect.

    ► This simply will not be used in a dungeon. The ability will open up your group to possible wipes if that feared target now aggros other mobs. If it has to remain, I would prefer it to function in a way where you have control over the wisp in this state. This can then be used to move a CC'd target to a desired location. The control of the wisp can be either like an Eye of Zomm in Everquest 1 or through a ground reticle targeting. Each time you click the ground it will move to the location you click. 

     

    → New Enchanter Spell Concepts

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8501/enchanter-spell-concepts

    → Suggested Changes to Charm

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/10338/current-state-of-charm

     


    This post was edited by Janus at June 7, 2020 11:31 AM PDT
    • 808 posts
    June 16, 2020 2:18 AM PDT

    Great list and lots of help Janus thanks! 

     

    I'd just bring up a point to consider, while a lot of the spells you have mentioned that are not perfect for the class role and may not be used much, i would argue that a perc like the low resist charm after mez duration x and dot's and DD's etc will have there place in specific group makeups.  2 chanters for instance, or an oh **** moment when you losing control of your mez'd mobs and you dont have a charm but now you KNOW that if you charm mob x you will almost definitely not get a resist, well that passive is worth its weight in gold. 

    As an enchanter in EQ there were many moments where 80% of my toolkit was either not needed or already applied, mana was full and no one is apprciating my staff dps haha.  There are moments when quirky and slightly left of centre skills shine, some of those you pointed out as being less useful might be some of those 

     

    Thanks for taking the time mate


    This post was edited by Hokanu at June 17, 2020 3:22 AM PDT
    • 126 posts
    June 16, 2020 3:56 AM PDT

    I do agree that enchanters should not have dots....

    I do not agree on charm being taking down that much... but hey thats just me....

    I would like it if foolish fire would not cause agro and after it wears off the mob would just walk back to where he or she is supposed to be....

    Very thoughtful thread ... you put a lot of time into that.... I agree with most of what you said but I cannot go into specifics at the moment.... at work =)

    • 456 posts
    June 19, 2020 8:39 PM PDT

    Hokanu said: ...

    while a lot of the spells you have mentioned that are not perfect for the class role and may not be used much, i would argue that a perc like the low resist charm after mez duration x and dot's and DD's etc will have there place in specific group makeups. 2 chanters for instance, or an oh **** moment when you losing control of your mez'd mobs and you dont have a charm but now you KNOW that if you charm mob x you will almost definitely not get a resist, well that passive is worth its weight in gold. 

    Which would make sense, but in that circumstance, we have an unresistable mez for that, granted later in level. I would rather use enrapture for that 'oh ****' moment than a charm. Hell, a regular remez is fine in that circumstance. We're bound to be tankier given the mechanics of Runeskin over what we had to do in EQ in which we almost never used a rune/B.Str until PoP and only when our FT and Mana levels were high enough. The issue here is that type of scenario just isn't all that common, especially if you're normally charming anyway. That mez break can't be charmed because you already have another charmed pet. You'd simply apply the long recast unresistable mez or simply remez. If they want to stick with the structure of it, make it so it would see more use. Allow it, so if you apply a mez after a break, that reapplication has a higher chance of sticking but only within four seconds on break. By putting it on charm narrows the function to a limited setting within an already limited setting. 

    What I would probably do is remove it for something better like an aura or buff. When active, you can see faint lines on the ground which track to a player or NPC within vicinity based on aggro. Call it a mind's eye or something but you can tell as an Enchanter where a target, either mezzed or not mezzed, is planning to go and or what it's planning to attack.

    As for two Enchanters. I don't see that setup being all that viable mainly because the archetype is designed to be invaluable to the group but the counter to that is it stacks very poorly. It can provide more performance to the group than any class when gauging for damage/healing (damage mitigation) but you lose out with having two instead of one and a DPS or another Healer or Tank within that other slot ends up having more of a benefit.

     

    As an enchanter in EQ there were many moments where 80% of my toolkit was either not needed or already applied, mana was full and no one is apprciating my staff dps haha. There are moments when quirky and slightly left of centre skills shine, some of those you pointed out as being less useful might be some of those

    Off hand, I would say there was about 36 spells I would use. For instance, the Bind Sight line. People don't use it that much or know how to use it effectively. You can bind to the eyes of your tank (who's typically the puller anyway) and it allows you to preselect targets, even gauge what to use before a pull comes to camp. Or better yet, bounce from him to NPCs in a room and you can tell him or her what mobs are there and how they should take it. Having a preselect target though allows for a rapid initial mez before you start target cycling for your speed locking to get the 2-10 adds locked down.

    As for mana. If I was only using 20% of my mana, something was wrong. If I misunderstood you, my apologies. Haste and Mana Regen -- which up until late Luclin -- would be a good chunk out of your mana until AQ and VoG in which the durations helped counter this issue but not completely. It presented sharp declines in intervals related to the duration of your rebuff cycle. You could stagger that and I did, but that requires a sharp phased approach to covering your party members. The other job is to make sure the mob on the Tank is slowed at all times and preferably before a mez break if he's moving to the next add. If 70% is too mana intensive, Tepid Deeds, our level 24, 50% slow would work well. In fact, in most content in Kunark and Velious, if the Tank isn't garbage, that's what I would use due to how slow is calculated, not to mention being almost half the cast time and exactly half the mana of level 44 Shiftless Deeds. 70% slow for instance with Forlorn Deeds isn't an actual 70% reduction in damage output. This is why I would argue that the 75% from a Shaman and the 70% from an Enchanter is only about 2% and change or true output variability, but that's going off on a tangent, sorry about that. 

    The other job is mezzing targets, stunning a caster, using Theft of Thought or similar spells for mana, keeping short term buffs up like Garou/NDT, Mana Flare etc. Then on top of that, if you still have a good mana maintenance, you can then decide on nuking. 

    The point is, almost every spell from the combat sense was needed and used. I say 'almost' though. A few spells in EQ should have been removed. This passive is closer to DDD in terms of value. DDD was the upgrade to Whirl Till You Hurl. However, when they nerfed WTYH pre Kunark, it became useless. DDD at least had the AC and AGI reduction component fur the full duration of the debuff. During a raid, the Enchanter cycle was Tashan variant, Weakness variant, Cripple variant then our best DoT (For the AC, AGI and Str reduction additive) and then cycle DDD. This had such a massive reduction in melee output and AC that it was equivilent to a 10-12% slow that stacked with actual Slow. Melee DPS was also increased about 4-5%. When you have 20 or so melee DPS in a standard 54-man raid or 72-man raid, that 4-5% was massive. These values were of course tested on the super hallway mobs in Tacvi with a group max geared in OOW, so the value may have been higher for lower stat raid mobs in earlier expansions.

    We had all these spells but as stated, almost all was usable. DDD is one I think we could have did without. Inside Voice as a passive is similar in that it's something I'd like to see made into something else that would get more use. 

     

    Nytman said: ...

    I do agree that enchanters should not have dots....I do not agree on charm being taking down that much... but hey thats just me....

    Yeah, my redux of charm needs to be rethought out possibly, but it was a simple approach. Having a charmed pet that strong and with out toolkit, not to mention how the perma charm component works (terribly mind you), it just seems odd. I'm of the type where I feel the class should be much stronger in support function but much weaker in direct damage function even through charm. Force multiplier being the focus of the archetype. It's why I wanted the nuke to turn into a debuff that every time an NPC hits a player, it does damage back to them and releases an ether of mana in the air that replenishes the group's mana. Have it set to 1 second minimal reuse on function with a 12 second duration. That in turn does damage in a way that's indicative to the Enchanter, not directly, but passively.

    Charm will depend on what kind of control you have over a mob's abilities. That's something we didn't have in EQ but did on a limited setting in EQ2. Vanguard allowed it but you pulled from the mob and had the ability for yourself to use. Both were fairly limited.

    I would like it if foolish fire would not cause agro and after it wears off the mob would just walk back to where he or she is supposed to be....

    A bit like a fear with a mem blur. I mean, we have mem blur, if we cast the mez, then mem blur and IF mem blur stuck, that's how it would work, but generally, the spell needs to be revised. I like your idea but given that the Enchanter is more about control than fear, I would like it in such a way that you can direct the wisp so you can effectively tell where the mob to go with standard limitations like a cliff edge, etc.

     

    • 808 posts
    June 26, 2020 4:17 PM PDT

    Interesting points there Janus, especially re unresistable mez, hadnt picked up on that and your 100% right.

    I meant if you didnt need to use 80% of your toolkit (skills not man) because fights are going smoothly and puller is bringing singles etc, then some of those, dd, dot's and non core Ench spells could make their way on to the bar to assist the group in other ways, not saying they are critical or even for the most part useful, but i still see a good reason to have some less than likely to be used spells, that can fill in some downtime for the Enc when their main CC role is not needed much.

    • 126 posts
    June 29, 2020 3:01 AM PDT

    Janus said:

    Hokanu said: ...

    while a lot of the spells you have mentioned that are not perfect for the class role and may not be used much, i would argue that a perc like the low resist charm after mez duration x and dot's and DD's etc will have there place in specific group makeups. 2 chanters for instance, or an oh **** moment when you losing control of your mez'd mobs and you dont have a charm but now you KNOW that if you charm mob x you will almost definitely not get a resist, well that passive is worth its weight in gold. 

    Which would make sense, but in that circumstance, we have an unresistable mez for that, granted later in level. I would rather use enrapture for that 'oh ****' moment than a charm. Hell, a regular remez is fine in that circumstance. We're bound to be tankier given the mechanics of Runeskin over what we had to do in EQ in which we almost never used a rune/B.Str until PoP and only when our FT and Mana levels were high enough. The issue here is that type of scenario just isn't all that common, especially if you're normally charming anyway. That mez break can't be charmed because you already have another charmed pet. You'd simply apply the long recast unresistable mez or simply remez. If they want to stick with the structure of it, make it so it would see more use. Allow it, so if you apply a mez after a break, that reapplication has a higher chance of sticking but only within four seconds on break. By putting it on charm narrows the function to a limited setting within an already limited setting. 

    What I would probably do is remove it for something better like an aura or buff. When active, you can see faint lines on the ground which track to a player or NPC within vicinity based on aggro. Call it a mind's eye or something but you can tell as an Enchanter where a target, either mezzed or not mezzed, is planning to go and or what it's planning to attack.

    As for two Enchanters. I don't see that setup being all that viable mainly because the archetype is designed to be invaluable to the group but the counter to that is it stacks very poorly. It can provide more performance to the group than any class when gauging for damage/healing (damage mitigation) but you lose out with having two instead of one and a DPS or another Healer or Tank within that other slot ends up having more of a benefit.

     

    As an enchanter in EQ there were many moments where 80% of my toolkit was either not needed or already applied, mana was full and no one is apprciating my staff dps haha. There are moments when quirky and slightly left of centre skills shine, some of those you pointed out as being less useful might be some of those

    Off hand, I would say there was about 36 spells I would use. For instance, the Bind Sight line. People don't use it that much or know how to use it effectively. You can bind to the eyes of your tank (who's typically the puller anyway) and it allows you to preselect targets, even gauge what to use before a pull comes to camp. Or better yet, bounce from him to NPCs in a room and you can tell him or her what mobs are there and how they should take it. Having a preselect target though allows for a rapid initial mez before you start target cycling for your speed locking to get the 2-10 adds locked down.

    As for mana. If I was only using 20% of my mana, something was wrong. If I misunderstood you, my apologies. Haste and Mana Regen -- which up until late Luclin -- would be a good chunk out of your mana until AQ and VoG in which the durations helped counter this issue but not completely. It presented sharp declines in intervals related to the duration of your rebuff cycle. You could stagger that and I did, but that requires a sharp phased approach to covering your party members. The other job is to make sure the mob on the Tank is slowed at all times and preferably before a mez break if he's moving to the next add. If 70% is too mana intensive, Tepid Deeds, our level 24, 50% slow would work well. In fact, in most content in Kunark and Velious, if the Tank isn't garbage, that's what I would use due to how slow is calculated, not to mention being almost half the cast time and exactly half the mana of level 44 Shiftless Deeds. 70% slow for instance with Forlorn Deeds isn't an actual 70% reduction in damage output. This is why I would argue that the 75% from a Shaman and the 70% from an Enchanter is only about 2% and change or true output variability, but that's going off on a tangent, sorry about that. 

    The other job is mezzing targets, stunning a caster, using Theft of Thought or similar spells for mana, keeping short term buffs up like Garou/NDT, Mana Flare etc. Then on top of that, if you still have a good mana maintenance, you can then decide on nuking. 

    The point is, almost every spell from the combat sense was needed and used. I say 'almost' though. A few spells in EQ should have been removed. This passive is closer to DDD in terms of value. DDD was the upgrade to Whirl Till You Hurl. However, when they nerfed WTYH pre Kunark, it became useless. DDD at least had the AC and AGI reduction component fur the full duration of the debuff. During a raid, the Enchanter cycle was Tashan variant, Weakness variant, Cripple variant then our best DoT (For the AC, AGI and Str reduction additive) and then cycle DDD. This had such a massive reduction in melee output and AC that it was equivilent to a 10-12% slow that stacked with actual Slow. Melee DPS was also increased about 4-5%. When you have 20 or so melee DPS in a standard 54-man raid or 72-man raid, that 4-5% was massive. These values were of course tested on the super hallway mobs in Tacvi with a group max geared in OOW, so the value may have been higher for lower stat raid mobs in earlier expansions.

    We had all these spells but as stated, almost all was usable. DDD is one I think we could have did without. Inside Voice as a passive is similar in that it's something I'd like to see made into something else that would get more use. 

     

    Nytman said: ...

    I do agree that enchanters should not have dots....I do not agree on charm being taking down that much... but hey thats just me....

    Yeah, my redux of charm needs to be rethought out possibly, but it was a simple approach. Having a charmed pet that strong and with out toolkit, not to mention how the perma charm component works (terribly mind you), it just seems odd. I'm of the type where I feel the class should be much stronger in support function but much weaker in direct damage function even through charm. Force multiplier being the focus of the archetype. It's why I wanted the nuke to turn into a debuff that every time an NPC hits a player, it does damage back to them and releases an ether of mana in the air that replenishes the group's mana. Have it set to 1 second minimal reuse on function with a 12 second duration. That in turn does damage in a way that's indicative to the Enchanter, not directly, but passively.

    Charm will depend on what kind of control you have over a mob's abilities. That's something we didn't have in EQ but did on a limited setting in EQ2. Vanguard allowed it but you pulled from the mob and had the ability for yourself to use. Both were fairly limited.

    I would like it if foolish fire would not cause agro and after it wears off the mob would just walk back to where he or she is supposed to be....

    A bit like a fear with a mem blur. I mean, we have mem blur, if we cast the mez, then mem blur and IF mem blur stuck, that's how it would work, but generally, the spell needs to be revised. I like your idea but given that the Enchanter is more about control than fear, I would like it in such a way that you can direct the wisp so you can effectively tell where the mob to go with standard limitations like a cliff edge, etc.

     

    I just want to point out... that I think a lot of testing needs to be done with charm... It was not as easy as everyone makes it out to be... and at anytime there could be an add a break in charm at a bad point and you were done and dead... that kind of playing takes an amazing amount of concentration... Now, in saying that, yes later on with AA and other upgrades charm did get somewhat easier... The people that say that charm... the way it was in eq was easy mode did not do it... I liked being in groups way more than soloing....

    I will say this...I liked to do reverse charming.... if you know you know.... but the setup and mob position was critical...

    .................

    I do not know if I will play rogue, summoner, or enchanter...maybe monk.... But I firmly believe that enchanters should be able to do what they did in EQ... I believe all classes should be fun... I will fight for Enchanters playstyle and fun factor till the end.... no matter what class i will play...

    I am not opposed... to an enchanter only having a few hours to play and letting them get some experience and loot..

     

    Iam looking forward to seeing and testing this stuff when it is available


    This post was edited by Nytman at June 29, 2020 6:33 AM PDT
    • 456 posts
    July 2, 2020 4:04 AM PDT

    Hokanu said: ...

    I meant if you didnt need to use 80% of your toolkit (skills not man) because fights are going smoothly and puller is bringing singles etc, then some of those, dd, dot's and non core Ench spells could make their way on to the bar to assist the group in other ways, not saying they are critical or even for the most part useful, but i still see a good reason to have some less than likely to be used spells, that can fill in some downtime for the Enc when their main CC role is not needed much.

    I can totally understand that. However, I would hope it was done in the function and form of the class. Having Directed Damage or DoTs just seems off. For instance, you could have a damage spell whereas instead of doing direct damage, you cast it on the mob which has a 6 or 12 second duration. In that time, every round in which it hits a party member or player, the spell does damage to that NPC. Another example is where the NPC takes damage off of a coefficient based off the mana cost of a spell the NPC casts.

     

    Nytman said: ...

    The people that say that charm... the way it was in eq was easy mode did not do it... I liked being in groups way more than soloing....

    Which was very true pre-PoP. The original function of charm worked like this.

    Upon cast and for each successive recheck within maximum duration you had the following...

    - Check level disparity roll of NPC to Player. If check passes = charm, if check fails = resist/break

    - Check magic resistance of NPC and base adjustment from spell and apply towards resistance formula. If check passes = charm, if check fails = resist/break

    - Check charisma of caster. If check passes = charm, if check fails = resist/break

    It's that reason Charisma had no real effect. People did countless tests and found it random and outside of Charisma.

    In PoP however, charm function was redesigned. This was likely due to Dire Charm having little to no use in the Planes aside for the paltry level 45 NPCs they dotted at zone-in to throw us a bone and felt something more had to be done. It was this point you saw a lot more Enchanters charm soloing. It's also why charm is as easy as it is in P99. They're using the Titanium client.

    Post-Luclin in PoP and beyond, charm worked like this.

    Upon cast and for each successive recheck within maximum duration you had the following...

    - Check level disparity roll of NPC to Player. If check passes = charm, if check fails = move to magic resist check

    - Check magic resistance of NPC and base adjustment from spell and apply towards resistance formula. If check passes = charm, if check fails = move to charisma check

    - Check charisma of caster. If check passes = charm, if check fails = resist/break

    This was when Charisma tests showed some variability that was consistent and something you find now on P99 and I would guess on Live.

     

    I will say this...I liked to do reverse charming.... if you know you know.... but the setup and mob position was critical...

    Yeah and it was much more viable with longer lasting roots, not to mention finding a mob that didn't natively wander.


    This post was edited by Janus at July 2, 2020 4:08 AM PDT
    • 910 posts
    July 12, 2020 1:41 PM PDT

    @Janus as a side note, it is because of this that so many players called bull$hit on the claims of PRotF not being a new version of EQ (which was an argument as to why the DL was so different than the SHD) but it doesn't add up when most of the other classes are near mirror images.  Sad really.

    PRotF similarities to EQ

    Druid - non-shapeshifting, healer with some spell damage and buffs + teleports
    Shaman - spiritual healer with the ability to slow and buff
    Cleric - plate wearing healer that pretty much can't do much of anything else
    Warrior - ... Tank and DPS
    Paladin - ... Tank and heal
    Enchanter - ... Mez and charm stuff
    Summoner - ... Summon stuff
    Monk - ... Feign Death, punch and kick stuff
    Wiz - ... nukes stuff and teleports
    DL - only class that is truly different so far
    Bard - still plate wearing melee
    Necro - ? (likely the same as EQ)


    This post was edited by Darch at July 12, 2020 1:51 PM PDT