Camping. Adjective. Planting the group in one place, while one member pulls mobs to the group.
I noticed on the Stream and several videos that the group was marching through a dungeon without camping. Camping is basically what made Everquest the game it was. The 'Moving Through A Dungeon To The End' mechanic is something WoW did and, frankly, something I want to steer clear of.
Assuming that camping is going to be in the game I would like to see more advancements in camping. World of Warcraft had the campfire you could plop down but it was one dimensional - +4 Spirit. While interesting albeit useless, why not take this mechanic to the next level?
I would like to see each party member add something to the Campfire. Place a campfire down (a mechanic that any class could do like WoW) but have other classes, including your own (or the person who put down the fire) add something unique to it.
After a campfire has been placed each party member gains a small mana/health regen.
Ranger - Adds traps around the camp to CC mobs
Warrior - Adds a wandering NPC that shows up once an hour to repair everyone gear for a cost
Enchanter - Adds a Mana Font to the camp to increase Mana regen to the party.
Necromancer - Adds a once an hour rez to one member if they die.
Paladin - Adds a Shrine that increases all healing done to all party members.
Cleric - Adds a Statue of a Deity that grants everyone increased AC.
Druid - Adds a Damage Font that grants a small damage shield to the group.
Shaman - Adds a Healing Font that grants a small health regen to the group.
Dire Lord - Adds a Graveyard that periodically summons undead to help fight.
Summoner - Adds a Merchant that sells reagents
Wizard - Adds a Merchant that sells spell scrolls
Rogue - Adds a Merchant that sells Potions/Poisons.
Bard - Set up tables and serve cocktails and pole dance for bonus XP.
Literally just spitballing here, but setting up a camp and actually having the camp add something to the game would be HUGE and not very difficult or game breaking.
Hell, you could even level up your camp as a skill or just by using it.
Thoughts?
Sitting in one spot pulling mobs back would probably be a pretty boring stream, considering limited time and a lot to show off.
Mob spawns, HP, balance, etc is also not tweaked so we have no idea how much faster or slower combat would be at launch.
They are not designing the game to prevent camping. If you want to do that (which is my preferred method) it will be allowed.
Pretty sure it's still in the game just fine. Considering there wont be many instances if at all if I remember correctly it'll be necessary to accomodate multiple groups in a zone over 10+ levels. Even if it's necessary to be on the move somewhat it's still more methodical than classic WoW which I'm enjoying now.
And I mean, it's going to be necessary to move on if you want to clear any named mobs. I doubt they're all sitting in the front of the dungeon for you to farm. Exploration is part of the fun. It looks like a good balance of fighting / resting. For good groups to still optimize dungeons / farming quicker than those that want to take it easy.
My idea of camping - not that it's everybody's - is where I and friends hang out and enjoy chat, friendship, experience and loot. By definition, I choose a place that isn't going to be maximally challenging, since my main goal is to enjoy the people, not the character advancement.
From my perspective, some of those buffs seem fairly OP. Adding 6 of them (assuming a full group) makes me think it would be seriously OP.
(Yes kelenin, it's a verb)
If there is a campfire concept in Pantheon, I do like the idea of different classes being able to effect it. It increases interdepndency and adds to class uniqueness. I'm not too keen on the merchants being summoned though. If that's in, there is no reason for treasures and coins to have weight, because you'll just always sell it.
One big reason why the devs are moving around in the streams is simple: There is noone else in the zone.
Moving through a dungeon filled with people only works when 1) everyone iswilling to move around; 2) all groups move around at a similar pace; 3) all groups move around in the same direction and 4) the dungeon is set up to not have any large dead-end that force you to backtrack.
Give any group a reason to stop moving and that either forces everyone else to stop or that group that stops now has nothing to kill as all the other groups keep moving through killing anything that respawns. Basically, a nightmare for all involved.
Dungeon design has a huge part to play in how well camping and moving could and will work. Long linear dungeons (or long linear parts of dungeons leading to other parts) mean that groups will be leapfrogging each other quite routinely. If you've got 4 groups in a long linear part of a dungeon and group 4, the furthest group in, leaves the zone and someone else at the zone-in decides to take their place, they necessarily must trapse all over the camps of groups 1-3. If there are no mobs up, not an issue. But is a group moving through willing to stop and wait for a camped group to clear the path? Sure, some groups might but many more will not.
Obviously they are not going to sit in one place for an hour+ during a stream. They are trying to show off the game and whats in it, not a single spot for the entirety of it.
However since there will be camping being able to actually build a campfire and bring benefits to the party with it sounds like an awesome idea.What was suggested by Zer05tar does seem very OP but i think a more subtle benefit to this creation of fire would be amazing.
Given that Pantheon's dungeons will be shared and non-instanced, I expect we will see camping to some degree - defined as groups staying in a specific area of the dungeon and fighting the enemies there, rather than attempting to "crawl" further into the dungeon.
There is a *very* large philosophical debate to be had about how much the game should encourage players to sit in one place and farm respawns endlessly, whether that's for loot or simple experience. But that's not what your thread is about, so I won't go there right now.
You're talking more about the ability to mark a place in the world as a campsite, and get some benefit from it. WoW did this with campfires, SWG did this with camp kits, and other games have done something similar with various abilities.
I am not sure that Pantheon is going to give us this ability in dungeons. I say this, because we know from the Amberfaet stream that there will be NPC campfires scattered in dungeons and other areas as various safe spots - places to rest and recuperate, or log out if needed. How rare or common these will be is anyone's guess but it seems reasonable to expect that there will be at least one in every larger dungeon.
As for overland zones outside of dungeons, it's probably a maybe. A lot depends on whether and how the concept of outposts is implemented. It might be possible that the outposts *are* the campsites. Or it might be that outposts are few and far between, and there would still be room enough for our characters to build a campfire at different places in the zone and maybe get some benefit out of it.
I think it's a great idea to have each class have a unique benefit if within range of a campfire. If they want to make campfire's matter, this is a good, and probably relativley easy, way to add more class diversity and depth to the game. The camping playstyle is my favorite of all time. Fight down to a rare area and then set up shop for a very long time hoping for treasures and tackling the challenging rare spawns. It's fun and it's a lottery type concept every time its close to respawn. I loved how EQ1 did this, and if Pantheon can take that starting point and add more to it to further make camping even more compelling and fun, then we are in great shape. Would love to hear Joppa talk more on this.
I hope camping doesn't just occur because dungeons are crowded, but let's not get into a discussion about zone shards. We all know what anything that sounds remoting like instancing does to a thread...
Better reasons to set up camp: -
Because to move around is too dangerous (greater risk of ambush/re-pops surprising you and hurting vulnerable group members before other know what's happening)
Because the zone increases in difficulty as you move 'deeper' and you've reached your limit
Because you reached a place where you think there is some treasure you'd like (presumably a drop from a monster that spawns there)
Because you feel you don't 'know' a place well, so would like to stay a while
Because it's a fun place to hang out with your group, for whatever reason
Whatever the reason, I like the idea of a campfire, though. Joppa did mention there would be such a concept. Some good ideas from the OP. I think it would definitely benefit the game for camping to be a 'thing' that, yes, all classes have abilities to work with.
Camping is intrinsically mixed with the pacing of an MMORPG, IMHO.
One thing I always disliked about WoW was that grouping happened so infrequently and camping almost never, then the thing that killed it for me was the dungeon finder that teleported you to the dungeon in an auto-group (and back out once complete) so the immediacy and impersonal nature of the whole thing lead to it always being a speed run where no one talked unless to ***** at someone who moved at a slightly sub-hectic rate or made any kind of slight mistake.
I hope the zones/dungeons in Pantheon are *much* more slow-paced. Sure, it should be possible to move through slowly, but it should not be possible to rush through no matter if you out-level the area. That should get you killed. You should have to move slow enough such that things like warning groups and even asking permission to move through their camping area is totally possible. Courtesy and consideration does require some time and having a slow pace is one way to encourage a more convivial/social atmosphere.
Everquest was a vastly superior experience to WoW in this regard. I hope Pantheon will be too. Actually, I'm pretty sure it will.
disposalist said:I hope camping doesn't just occur because dungeons are crowded, but let's not get into a discussion about zone shards. We all know what anything that sounds remoting like instancing does to a thread...
Better reasons to set up camp: -
Because to move around is too dangerous (greater risk of ambush/re-pops surprising you and hurting vulnerable group members before other know what's happening)
Because the zone increases in difficulty as you move 'deeper' and you've reached your limit
Because you reached a place where you think there is some treasure you'd like (presumably a drop from a monster that spawns there)
Because you feel you don't 'know' a place well, so would like to stay a while
Because it's a fun place to hang out with your group, for whatever reasonWhatever the reason, I like the idea of a campfire, though. Joppa did mention there would be such a concept. Some good ideas from the OP. I think it would definitely benefit the game for camping to be a 'thing' that, yes, all classes have abilities to work with.
Camping is intrinsically mixed with the pacing of an MMORPG, IMHO.
One thing I always disliked about WoW was that grouping happened so infrequently and camping almost never, then the thing that killed it for me was the dungeon finder that teleported you to the dungeon in an auto-group (and back out once complete) so the immediacy and impersonal nature of the whole thing lead to it always being a speed run where no one talked unless to ***** at someone who moved at a slightly sub-hectic rate or made any kind of slight mistake.
I hope the zones/dungeons in Pantheon are *much* more slow-paced. Sure, it should be possible to move through slowly, but it should not be possible to rush through no matter if you out-level the area. That should get you killed. You should have to move slow enough such that things like warning groups and even asking permission to move through their camping area is totally possible. Courtesy and consideration does require some time and having a slow pace is one way to encourage a more convivial/social atmosphere.
Everquest was a vastly superior experience to WoW in this regard. I hope Pantheon will be too. Actually, I'm pretty sure it will.
This, right here, is what I dream Pantheon to be like. I'll raid at times, sure, but I get far more out of this kind of experience than raiding could ever give me.
I like the campfire idea, too. Dark Age of Camelot has a tinderbox you can use to create a campfire which gives you small bonuses whilst within a certain radius of it.
Maybe tinderboxes (or something similar to build a campfire out in the wild) could be something made through trade skills alone? That's a great consumable that would always be appealing, regardless of level, it's agreat money sponge for the economy and it's a genuinely useful thing to craft.
Camping for specific NPCs has always been a concern of mine, especially for mobs that are required for quests and the like. It sounds great to hang about a spawn point and waiting and chatting to friends then looting and repeating, but when it starts to interfere with other players progression (i.e. not able to kill a mob because it is always camped) then it really detracts from the fun for those that need it but are not able to camp it. I get that an area could be camped by a group for the kill then move on, that is cool with me.
I do have a problem with camping a mob primarily for its loot though. I just dont think a mob should be camped just to get as much out of it as possible as it stops everyone else from their advancement/loot chances. I would be happy if mobs with good loot or quest specific requirements had cool down timers on them so it couldnt be interacted with by a player that killed it for x period of time. This would encourage people to move on to other areas and allows more than one person to have a chance at loot/progression while the cool-down on the mob ran its course.
Camping will happen. Camping at the exclusion of all other players should be controlled, imo.
I do remember back in the day of EQ etc, that if a mob was being camped and you needed a kill, then generally you could ask for a group join up to get it at the expense of not being entitled to any loot drop. I guess it was better than no kill at all, but surely with today's tech, there are better ways of ensuring people can get a chance at all areas of a game without too much hinderance?
The game is geared to benefit those wanting adventure and exploration, so make camping difficult to sustain and reward those willing to roam.
chenzeme said:Camping for specific NPCs has always been a concern of mine, especially for mobs that are required for quests and the like. It sounds great to hang about a spawn point and waiting and chatting to friends then looting and repeating, but when it starts to interfere with other players progression (i.e. not able to kill a mob because it is always camped) then it really detracts from the fun for those that need it but are not able to camp it. I get that an area could be camped by a group for the kill then move on, that is cool with me.
I do have a problem with camping a mob primarily for its loot though. I just dont think a mob should be camped just to get as much out of it as possible as it stops everyone else from their advancement/loot chances. I would be happy if mobs with good loot or quest specific requirements had cool down timers on them so it couldnt be interacted with by a player that killed it for x period of time. This would encourage people to move on to other areas and allows more than one person to have a chance at loot/progression while the cool-down on the mob ran its course.
Camping will happen. Camping at the exclusion of all other players should be controlled, imo.
I do remember back in the day of EQ etc, that if a mob was being camped and you needed a kill, then generally you could ask for a group join up to get it at the expense of not being entitled to any loot drop. I guess it was better than no kill at all, but surely with today's tech, there are better ways of ensuring people can get a chance at all areas of a game without too much hinderance?
The game is geared to benefit those wanting adventure and exploration, so make camping difficult to sustain and reward those willing to roam.
It was annoying in EQ when high level players would solo camp spots for treasure loot, blocking them for appropriate level groups to enjoy.
Some sort of diminishing returns rule would be good. The more times you loot a specific item, the less chance you have of getting it to drop.
One of the recent streams did mention setting up campfires and that they would have benefits. They did not go into the details of what those benefits would be, but I like the idea. Rather than some passive group bonus, it's an active group bonus. When in a group you have to actually do something to get the group bonus (if it exists :))
zer05tar said:I noticed on the Stream and several videos that the group was marching through a dungeon without camping. Camping is basically what made Everquest the game it was. The 'Moving Through A Dungeon To The End' mechanic is something WoW did and, frankly, something I want to steer clear of.
I think what we've seen in the streams has been the development team moving through zones to show us the zones, and not necessarily a reflection of how the game content should be digested (crawling vs camping). That and well, sometimes you have to crawl through a dungeon to get to your desired camp site...
Everquest was often called EverCAMP. This was not praise.
Getting most of your experience and loot staying in one place and killing the same mobs over and over and over and over is, in a word, hideously boring unless your goal is to relax and chat and get a little bit of experience and loot while doing so. Why have the developers build an interesting world and then spend your life in 5 or 10 or 15 good camps?
Sitting in one place waiting for a boss with a long respawn timer to spawn (this is how EQ got its uncomplimentary nickname - hugely long respawn timers) is worse.
Spending days or weeks not even doing this much but waiting for a prized camp to become available is worse yet.
I strongly disagree with the fondness many feel for camping - a fondness they quite likely did not feel while they were actually doing it. Killing mobs in one spot for an hour or two between traveling around to see other things and doing quests is fine - that isn't what I am criticizing. But if camping is the main focus of a game I think that game has problems keeping people interested. Heck - keeping people awake.
My first major committment to a MMO was DAOC which also had camps and respawn waits but not to the extent of EQ. So I agree that camps can be a good thing and bosses shouldn't respawn every minute - but let us not bring back the worst features of EQ just because they were in EQ. Better to bring back the worst features of Vanguard (evil smile).
dorotea said:unless your goal is to relax and chat and get a little bit of experience and loot while doing so.
Back then I didn't realize it at the time, but yes that is why I kept putting up with everything else in the game. When the goal of the group finder is to not even say a word and speed run through a dungeon you lose something big.
The slow camps let you get to know the people in the group a bit. You got to meet the zone regulars playing your hours. People would ask for help in OOC and you could as a group move over to their camp to revive them collecting IOUs.
Welp, it seems like we went into the philosophical debate - so here's my opinion on that :)
The problem isn't really the act of camping an area - it's why people choose to camp an area. One of the big problems EverQuest had was that many camps were about specific loot drops, and they were exclusionary. They represented bottlenecks, and they pitted players against each other because they were the sole source of highly desirable items. In addition, the mobs that dropped the items often had very long respawn timers because in EQ, everything was controlled by the timers. It was a very primitive design.
There is value in allowing groups to stop and loiter in an area, or move slowly through an area - especially in a shared space where there are other players around. However, it's also important not to let players block each other for long periods of time from attempting to complete goals or see pieces of the game's content. If a group wants to try Gnashura in Halnir's Caves, they should be able to do so. They shouldn't have to worry about whether there's another group down there camping him for his drops.
The right approach for Pantheon, like most other things that we debate around here, is to not do something simplistic and easily abused, but rather follow a more nuanced design.
- Special encounters that drop very desirable loot, or "boss" type encounters should be triggered rather than on a random respawn timer, and set up in such a way that groups move on (or are forcibly moved) after completing them.
- There should never be a single source for a certain type of item. There should always be comparable items that can be obtained in other places within the world, as well as some that can be obtained by other methods with different (but equally challenging) requirements.
- Dungeons and overland areas should feature shared loot tables on minor named NPCs of the same type - meaning that you shouldn't have to fight Black Rose Lieutenant Nephele specifically in order to get the Sword of the Keep, but instead, it has a chance to drop from any of the five different Black Rose Lieutenants that spawn in various places.
- Spawn points for named mobs (not "bosses") in dungeons should be randomized in terms of both time and location. The Orc High Shaman might respawn in 5 minutes or 20 minutes. He might spawn by the central fire, or at any of several other places within the Orc Camp.
- "Normal" enemies within various areas should each have a very low chance to drop unique and/or interesting things (appropriate to the enemy type). If you're in Black Rose Keep but it's heavily camped, you still might have chances to pick up pieces of the Black Rose armor set from normal guards and so on.
- Wherever possible, dungeons should avoid linear designs that channel players over the top of each other. Instead of there only being one path down, there should probably be three or even five, allowing groups to spread out more easily.
I could go on, but you probably get the point. For Pantheon, camping should ultimately be about stopping in an area temporarily, and not about sitting on a specific spawn or blocking other players for getting something. In a shared, open-world design, it's something that players will do - even if it's just because they want to gather wolf pelts or something. It's also not a bad thing for allowing people to socialize a bit. Pantheon should support it, but in a way that's healthy for the playerbase - not one that will have players fighting each other.
Camping because it is too dangerous to move around and you need a defensible position can be kinda cool.
Camping because you are trying to spawn kill mobs because there are not enough mobs for everyone is bad.
Camping because you are trying to spawn kill named for profit is also bad.
@Neph
We very much disagree on this:
If a group wants to try Gnashura in Halnir's Caves, they should be able to do so. They shouldn't have to worry about whether there's another group down there camping him for his drops.
You should absolutely not be able to fight any mob any time you want (for a number of reasons). That is one of the positives in an open world/contested game.
That view point would endorse an instanced game. That is not what many of us want. A group should definitely have to consider whether there is another group in the spot they want or not. Open camps shouldn't be guaranteed...i just can't even comprehend...i... just no.