Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Is this game starting to be a more Individualism based

    • 87 posts
    April 8, 2020 8:10 AM PDT

    So after the lastest stream i wonder if we are leaving the more grp based roles and starts to wonder off that path and start to go down the wow path that a class can almost do anything,like healing,damage,buffing and to get resource like health/mana is no problem.

    Is this to promote fast pace combat where downtime is boring or just not appealing.

    will all the archetype be the same like tank/healer/meele dps/caster dps, even to the point where you cant distinguish them its just a tank or just a healer it dont matter what we have.

     

    That might be ok with easy grp making but it might also leave the individual class to shame like what is really special with my class ? why even bother having so many classes that can do almost everything i can do.This is a very broad question i know but i have some concerned off the future for the direction off the game in general.

    Best regards Aqua

    • 71 posts
    April 8, 2020 8:48 AM PDT

    If your talking about the Shaman Indepth video they recently did:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-VEt4ReDSk

    Then i believe I understand your fears but I don't think you have anything to worry about. The DPS aspect of a healing class is mainly to allow them to do things out in the world without needing to have a group with them 24/7. Like if you just need to kill a single rabbit that's not in a dungeon so you can use their skin or whatever for your profession, you know stuff like that. The pet while it might appear to be good for Tanking will more then likely not have a form of tanking aggro capability as it's primarily used as either a resource for your resurrection spell, a buff for your mana/health regen, or some extra dps; remember though you'll have to make it grow up first before you can do all that with it. As a whole though the Shaman class is primarily focused on Buffs/Debuffs with some healing tossed in. So in order to even be efficent with said class you'll need to know your buffs and debuffs, meaning not everyone will be able to even effectively play that class due to how it operates. Not only that though, the class is designed to work alongside other classes, like a Wizard or Druid or whatever. This means it will not be that capable in "solo play" activities and I can see many shaman struggling at fighting mobs out in the wild, like a deer at low and even maybe mid-tier levels too. 

     

    I mean we have seen the Shaman in action before and the combat doesn't appear to be going down the route of "wow combat style" as you fear:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIqZEMCC5nA

     

    So again, while I do understand your fears I do not believe you have anything to worry about as of right now. 

    • 521 posts
    April 8, 2020 9:11 AM PDT

    znushu said:

    If your talking about the Shaman Indepth video they recently did:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-VEt4ReDSk

     The DPS aspect of a healing class is mainly to allow them to do things out in the world without needing to have a group with them 24/7. Like if you just need to kill a single rabbit that's not in a dungeon so you can use their skin or whatever for your profession, you know stuff like that.

    I think it would be better to give the needed skills to the profession (Non-combat Class).

    For example, A Ranger has DPS abilities with some Bushman skills, Tracking, foraging ect.. But a true Bushman non-Combat profession with Tracking, Trapping, foraging, Bushcraft Shelters, A survivalist bringing Skins, and meats to the stores would only need enough attack power for basic defence, perhsps limited bow skills, with most the killing power being in traps or snares.

    • 633 posts
    April 8, 2020 12:18 PM PDT

    If you look at older group-centric games like Everquest and Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, every class had the ability to do dps, including all of the healers.  In fact, many classes could CC, all classes could do dps (including clerics), many classes could tank in a pinch for group roles, etc.  But having a cleric or monk tank for you is generally much less efficient than having a warrior, paladin or shadow knight tank.  Having a shaman do your dps is much less efficient than having a wizard, rogue, ranger, etc do your dps.  No class is simply one-dimensional.

    I doubt anyone wants to play a class that all they can do is watch people's lives and heal them and absolutely nothing else.  Shamans, and other classes need options for things to do.

    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 12:54 PM PDT
    Individualism? No. Skill expression yes :D
    Class synergy promotes pairing. Shamans and wizards.
    The real issue that will crop up later is... shamans are going to want be able to do as much damage as a wizard since shamans won’t be be satisfied with subpar Dps options.
    Whether or not shaman players are willing to accept off role weakspots??? Heh. Then we can talk that this game is going individualistic.
    • 1399 posts
    April 8, 2020 12:55 PM PDT

    I have been having some similar concerns but for different reasons. This whole Downranking, and upgrading a spell from a single target to an Aoe. 

    Mana Management is no longer a thing, not necessary? 

    I know it’s not the same as what the OP is suggesting, but as much as I hate to say it every since we lost Brad it “seems” I have been seeing one red flag after the other… I’ve been quiet about is so far, but I’ve noticed others seeing similar red flags in other areas, like the OP’s post here in this thread.

    I hope I’m imagining things.

    • 1584 posts
    April 8, 2020 1:06 PM PDT

    I honestly don't see it, From like 4 years ago the devs have said the shamans would be having slows, DoTs, Heals, Buffs, Debuffs, and everything like that kinda like how they were in a way in EQ with obvious difference but still to be looked at as a pretty versatile class nonetheless, and back than i didn't hear any of those concerns whats so ever, but now that you actually see the spell book and it gives you all that and out of no where you concerned about it when we already knew they were probably going to get it?  

     

    Also i think the Grp wide Buffs and everything i think it pretty cool, and the cannabalize spell was an iconic ability shamans had in EQ as well, so again many were probably hoping they would get it again to bring back that feeling of playing a class they loved.  And to touch up more of the grp wide spells, i remember back when we played EQ for YEARS, and didn't have a single grp wide buff ot spell of anything, it sucked, like really bad, made it to where if you were raiding, or even grouping at times it felt liek most of your time as a buffer was merely buffing and not even enjoying the game without feeling taxed to click on every single player individually and cast 3-6 buffs on each and if you wiped it felt like you litterally just wasted 30 minutes of buffing.

    • 67 posts
    April 9, 2020 1:47 AM PDT

    I think the first job of a shaman is still a healer. However, if a shaman is grouping with another shaman, and one of them is already capable of healing and doing the main job, the other shaman should have the possilbilty to do something useful as well. He will switch his spells to more damage oriented set, and do some damage. 

    Since you need a few spellslots to heal efficiently, you cannot just take over the healing role when the healing shaman dies or is oom. However, the dmg shaman should not be able to do as much dmg as a wizard for example. Howver, i cannot compare the damage here ;) 

    So even if the shaman can fill at least 2 roles, healing is his main role and damage is his second role. Due to the limited amount of spell slots, the shaman has to decide, what role he wants to fulfill, or what role fits to the group.

    Basically i agree with kelenin. I played EQ and Vanguard, and in both games, if you could not fulfill your main role for whatever reason, you could switch to another role. Not all roles for all classes, but you had at least one more choice.

    • Necromancer without chanter -> Ghetto Mez might be in your spellbar
    • Necromancer with chanter -> Mez would be a complete waist of space!
    • Chanter with a Shaman -> No slow needed (other than due to mana issues on shaman side)
    • Chanter without shaman -> slow is needed.

    Just some examples


    This post was edited by Matrulak at April 9, 2020 2:05 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    April 9, 2020 6:38 AM PDT

    Shaman is often, and seems to be here, a special case. A bit of a hybrid.

    As long as it isn't 'better' (objectively more 'powerful') than other, less multi-purpose, classes, I don't see a problem.

    It never was in EQ. It's just a matter of tweaking and balancing to make sure it isn't too 'good'.

    I also think as long as Shaman is more 'challenging' to get the best out of, then it's ok.

    It worked well in LOTRO that the more difficult to use classes could actually be more flexible in the hands of a skilled players. The less complex classes were good, but easier to learn and master, though perhaps not as versatile.


    This post was edited by disposalist at April 9, 2020 6:39 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    April 9, 2020 7:18 AM PDT

    To me it is very simple. Every class should have a primary role in a group and be better at that role than any class with a different role. Much better. 

    But every class should be able to explore and enjoy the world on its own. Every class should be able to kill a soloable enemy - which means healers and tanks need to do damage.

     

    Traditionally some classes are more rounded than others and shaman is often one of them - so I think the design so far is fine.

    • 1315 posts
    April 9, 2020 8:06 AM PDT

    This topic is where the LAS actually shines.  If filling a specific group role takes more than 50% of your slots then you can really only do one role at time.  If you have two of the same class then they can put up completely different LAS load outs such that they function as different group roles without becoming self sufficient.  If you can use all your abilities at the same time your character would be too well rounded to need a group in order to function.

    Ive never really been a fan of overly distinct class abilities as that tends to make certain classes become required for certain content.  Its better to have some flexibility in which players you Can bring to content rather than which characters you Must bring to content.

    • 196 posts
    April 9, 2020 8:34 AM PDT

    I just don't want to see if you take a certain class you have to take X,Y,Z skills you are a useless class, nor do I want to have any class that can do it all. I would like to see the classes do there primary skills they do well and any other skill they choose to be a secondary or tertiary not as well,  so that other classes can do there primaray class. Soloing at a certain point should not be possible as it would take away from what the devs are trying to develop and focus on unless they are a really high level (like a level 30-40 charater in a single digits area for example).  Past a certain distance from a major city,town or village soloing is just not possible and you need to group up. staying on the roads (if there are any) is a feasable way for solo players to get around from place to place, but also have a certain level of risk as well. I don't think I worded this well, but if you can understand what I am saying then by all means have at it.

    • 2752 posts
    April 9, 2020 12:02 PM PDT

    Trasak said:

    This topic is where the LAS actually shines.  If filling a specific group role takes more than 50% of your slots then you can really only do one role at time.  If you have two of the same class then they can put up completely different LAS load outs such that they function as different group roles without becoming self sufficient.  If you can use all your abilities at the same time your character would be too well rounded to need a group in order to function.

    That's not really the case. Even with UAS and two of the same the healer can't really waste mana using non-essential spells (DPS/etc), so naturally the second one would still be doing mostly DPS with possibly the tiniest buffer saved for emergency healing (same as they will with LAS). 

    Oldwargoat39 said:

    I just don't want to see if you take a certain class you have to take X,Y,Z skills you are a useless class, nor do I want to have any class that can do it all.

    I am a bit concerned things are heading this way. Maybe not "useless" but far less useful. With this mastery stuff I foresee many groups finding themselves struggling with far less efficient tanks/healers who fashion themselves "DPS warriors" or "DPS shaman." While eventually all things might get mastered, it does little to help the long period of time before then. 

    And if the game is so easy it doesn't matter that your tanks and healers choose to master their off-role stuff first then that is a totally different problem. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at April 9, 2020 12:08 PM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    April 9, 2020 12:23 PM PDT

    @Iksar  

    It sounds like they are making respecing your abilities easy enough that your concern about a player feeling useless if they choose poorly shouldn't be an issue.  If someone feels like they want to switch their abilities they have that option.

    Personally, I would prefer that respecing be more limited and that the choices a player makes matter but, I understand them not wanting to let people gimp themselves and then have limited options to fix it.

    • 1315 posts
    April 9, 2020 12:39 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Trasak said:

    This topic is where the LAS actually shines.  If filling a specific group role takes more than 50% of your slots then you can really only do one role at time.  If you have two of the same class then they can put up completely different LAS load outs such that they function as different group roles without becoming self sufficient.  If you can use all your abilities at the same time your character would be too well rounded to need a group in order to function.

    That's not really the case. Even with UAS and two of the same the healer can't really waste mana using non-essential spells (DPS/etc), so naturally the second one would still be doing mostly DPS with possibly the tiniest buffer saved for emergency healing (same as they will with LAS). 

    LAS allows for a meta game based more on a set of abilities rather than on single abilities.  A+D+E abilities when used together could yield higher mana efficiency but you wouldnt have space on your bar for B, C or F which are more Debuff focused so there is an opportunity cost.  If you can always cast all abilities then there is no opportunity cost and there for the core abilites need to be weaker relative to what they could be in a limited action set.

    Diablo 2 launched without a real synergies between most of the skills.  You could build cool characters but really only the most powerful abilities were used.  Once LoD came out they added cool synergies between the low-level abilities such that they transformed into equal powers with the original most powerful abilities if you built with synergies in mind.  LAS basically allows you to have multiple characters in one that can perform different roles by utilizing synergies because you are temporarily giving up other abilities.  Nothing is stopping you from just picking the maximum magnitude abilities from all your trees to be versatile, but you will be giving up on the synergy boosts for specializing.

    The same will go even further when you synergies between different classes.

    For example:

    The base characters maximum magnitude ability is 100.  If they give up 50% of their variety then they can increase their maximum magnitude from 100 to 125 or 150.  All 6 members stay as versatile as possible then their max output is 600.  If they all specialize then their output becomes 650 to 800.  If then they synergize between each other they may drop down to 120 personally but apply a 50% boost to another team member and end up with 395 (assuming 150 as the base) for a total of 1185 if specializing and synergizing over just straight using a single maximum ability.  Easy content would then require a group to output 400-500, hard content would be 700-900 and max difficulty would be 1000-1200.

    You can play without synergies both within your own class and within your group but don’t expect to be able to complete the hardest content.  Likewise don’t expect a developer to make it easy to respond to every situation at the drop of a hat.  That removes both the planning and the challenge.

    Now its fine to say you personally do not like needing to pick which abilities to load, I hate playing prepared spell casters in table top for that reason, but UAS and LAS cannot be balanced equally in power levels and requiring the use of synergies to succeed is the only way to really force people to group and not multi box.

    • 223 posts
    April 9, 2020 12:57 PM PDT

    So much testing needed 

    • 1479 posts
    April 9, 2020 3:47 PM PDT

    Aqua said:

    So after the lastest stream i wonder if we are leaving the more grp based roles and starts to wonder off that path and start to go down the wow path that a class can almost do anything,like healing,damage,buffing and to get resource like health/mana is no problem.

    Is this to promote fast pace combat where downtime is boring or just not appealing.

    will all the archetype be the same like tank/healer/meele dps/caster dps, even to the point where you cant distinguish them its just a tank or just a healer it dont matter what we have.

     

    That might be ok with easy grp making but it might also leave the individual class to shame like what is really special with my class ? why even bother having so many classes that can do almost everything i can do.This is a very broad question i know but i have some concerned off the future for the direction off the game in general.

    Best regards Aqua

     

    Healers in EQ had nukes, dots, roots, that didn't make them prime damage dealer. It have them options when mana was plentyfull, when there were multiple healers for emergencies situations, or just for farming alone for crafting mats.

     

    I don't see how having an arsinal is problematic, as long as he is not as strong as the one of the class you might mimick. Also group synergy has been shown to be a main concern even if we do not all agree on how it is implemented.

    • 2756 posts
    April 9, 2020 4:08 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Aqua said:

    So after the lastest stream i wonder if we are leaving the more grp based roles and starts to wonder off that path and start to go down the wow path that a class can almost do anything,like healing,damage,buffing and to get resource like health/mana is no problem.

    Is this to promote fast pace combat where downtime is boring or just not appealing.

    will all the archetype be the same like tank/healer/meele dps/caster dps, even to the point where you cant distinguish them its just a tank or just a healer it dont matter what we have.

    That might be ok with easy grp making but it might also leave the individual class to shame like what is really special with my class ? why even bother having so many classes that can do almost everything i can do.This is a very broad question i know but i have some concerned off the future for the direction off the game in general.

    Best regards Aqua

    Healers in EQ had nukes, dots, roots, that didn't make them prime damage dealer. It have them options when mana was plentyfull, when there were multiple healers for emergencies situations, or just for farming alone for crafting mats.

    I don't see how having an arsinal is problematic, as long as he is not as strong as the one of the class you might mimick. Also group synergy has been shown to be a main concern even if we do not all agree on how it is implemented.

    As someone who played a cleric to high level in EQ I look forward to having non-healing abilities in Pantheon that I might be allowed to use without group members complaining I am "wasting mana" and "slowing them down".

    You basically weren't allowed to cast anything that wasn't the most efficient spells of your primary role at pain of severe consequences (like others 'tutting', 'huffing' and rolling their eyes at you).

    I exaggerate, but not much. It was a constant drag that I would get new spells and never get to use them unless soloing (and then those abilities were just annoyingly useless, but all you had).

    The Shaman always did have more fun in EQ. It looks good fun in Pantheon. I hope VR manage to add some 'fun' to all classes.


    This post was edited by disposalist at April 9, 2020 4:09 PM PDT
    • 1618 posts
    April 9, 2020 4:19 PM PDT

    All the new talk of states makes me think the exact opposite of individualism. In order to get states to work well, you need a series of characters working together to keep them up and react with them.

    The game appears to be moving even further towards required teamwork.

    Sounds good to me.

    • 133 posts
    April 9, 2020 5:30 PM PDT

    I don't see a problem with individualism per se, unless we are meaning it as something other than soloing? If you are talking about soloing, then I think it's a good idea to have the class be able to solo. You are going to get times where someone can't be on at prime times for their server; this is assuming servers are going to be region set. People that get on at these times are not going to want to log off because there is no one in their circle of friends or from their guild that is either willing to group because they are doing something else or is on to group. I don't have an issue with being flexible for it. Though, from what I saw in the stream...it didn't really seem that way to me. Sure, the Shaman has some skills and abilities that look to be just for solo play, but even some solo play spells and such are geared towards group as well. I still got the feeling that people are going to really need a group still, even with the abilities showing a slight bit of soloing capabilities. VR had stated LONG ago that they didn't want this game to be dredging and such as EQ was, but they wanted it to still feel like EQ. I can't remember which stream it was, but I can remember hearing the devs talk about having the game be very group oriented, but also allow for people that didn't have a lot of time to be able to get things done. From what I saw on the latest stream, it seems they are blending those two pretty well, in terms of the shaman at least lol.

    • 1860 posts
    April 9, 2020 5:33 PM PDT

    disposalist said:

    As someone who played a cleric to high level in EQ I look forward to having non-healing abilities in Pantheon that I might be allowed to use without group members complaining I am "wasting mana" and "slowing them down".

    You basically weren't allowed to cast anything that wasn't the most efficient spells of your primary role at pain of severe consequences (like others 'tutting', 'huffing' and rolling their eyes at you)..

    That had to do with who you chose to group with.  Granted, if the content is challenging,  I would expect it to be the same. 

    • 196 posts
    April 9, 2020 5:41 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Trasak said:

    This topic is where the LAS actually shines.  If filling a specific group role takes more than 50% of your slots then you can really only do one role at time.  If you have two of the same class then they can put up completely different LAS load outs such that they function as different group roles without becoming self sufficient.  If you can use all your abilities at the same time your character would be too well rounded to need a group in order to function.

    That's not really the case. Even with UAS and two of the same the healer can't really waste mana using non-essential spells (DPS/etc), so naturally the second one would still be doing mostly DPS with possibly the tiniest buffer saved for emergency healing (same as they will with LAS). 

    Oldwargoat39 said:

    I just don't want to see if you take a certain class you have to take X,Y,Z skills you are a useless class, nor do I want to have any class that can do it all.

    I am a bit concerned things are heading this way. Maybe not "useless" but far less useful. With this mastery stuff I foresee many groups finding themselves struggling with far less efficient tanks/healers who fashion themselves "DPS warriors" or "DPS shaman." While eventually all things might get mastered, it does little to help the long period of time before then. 

    And if the game is so easy it doesn't matter that your tanks and healers choose to master their off-role stuff first then that is a totally different problem. 

    you took apart one part of what I said and not the entire thing. your taking ehst i said out of context. If you added the the next sentence(s) to it what I was saying is what I was getting at.

    " nor do I want to have any class that can do it all. I would like to see the classes do there primary skills they do well and any other skill they choose to be a secondary or tertiary not as well,  so that other classes can do there primaray class." Maybe in the case of Shamen it might be able to do different roles but make there main focus healing,rezing,clensing, secondary buff/debuff and tertiary (DPS and DOTS) as DPS and DOTS are not normally used spells/ abilities and used when the "oh shyte button" is pressed or when your pushing that last 1-2% boss health. This would make other classes that can do buff/debuff and DPS and DOTS classes that do the other things shine more and stop class stacking..


    This post was edited by Oldwargoat39 at April 9, 2020 6:12 PM PDT
    • 945 posts
    April 9, 2020 7:37 PM PDT

    Some classes will be able to solo and some wont but at its core the game will be group reliant if players want to really experience the game.  In EQ the classes that could solo very efficiently were the 3 pet classes (Nec, Enc, Mag) followed by the Shaman, and then the quad/swarm kiters (Wiz, Dru, Brd) and then the fear kite SHD (the necro could fear kite too obviously but they fell into the pet class "very efficient" category).  The other classes really needed a group for efficient exp and experiencing much of the game at all.  

    So have no fear, the game is not being designed for anyone to solo.  There will absolutely be classes capable of soloing and I would not be surprised if the Shaman was one of those classes.  But even the Shaman will need a group to fully utilize their class and experience the game in its entirety.

    • 1584 posts
    April 13, 2020 2:17 AM PDT

    philo said:

    Where Philo responds to Disposialists about if the game is truly challenging than healers will probably just be healing in group settings.

    I actually have to agree with this, usually unless if the spell that so happen to also be a debuff of some sort it's best that healer kinda stay healing, as usually when it comes to balance not only does dps classes have stronger nukes/DoTs they are usually more mana efficent as well.

     

    Granted like I said before this could be wrong, but I only see this changing due to the debuffs or like a spell that when you hit the target, that target's target (aka hopefully the tank) get like a heal, or something in return, but this is the only situations that I see that would be acceptable for the cleric to nuke anything in a group setting.

    And now I realized I quoted the wrong message, this was suppose to be where Philo replied the Disposialists and not Iksar, lol well anyway all the same.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at April 13, 2020 2:29 AM PDT
    • 159 posts
    April 13, 2020 2:45 AM PDT

    Riahuf22 said:

    philo said:

    Where Philo responds to Disposialists about if the game is truly challenging than healers will probably just be healing in group settings.

    I actually have to agree with this, usually unless if the spell that so happen to also be a debuff of some sort it's best that healer kinda stay healing, as usually when it comes to balance not only does dps classes have stronger nukes/DoTs they are usually more mana efficent as well.

     

    Granted like I said before this could be wrong, but I only see this changing due to the debuffs or like a spell that when you hit the target, that target's target (aka hopefully the tank) get like a heal, or something in return, but this is the only situations that I see that would be acceptable for the cleric to nuke anything in a group setting.

    And now I realized I quoted the wrong message, this was suppose to be where Philo replied the Disposialists and not Iksar, lol well anyway all the same.

     

    You make some fair points.  I remember clerics from EQ saying how they started to hate the class because all they did was heal and sit to regain mana. If any priest class can only heal and sit to regain mana. We are going to have a shortage of healers IMHO..