znushu said: It does look more interesting then what we have now for Direlord but the vibe i'm mostly getting from that is "Necromancer or Warlock with a sword" and not what we got now. Which admittedly wont fit with the Direlord but it would fit with a "Dark Knight" class.
I mean, one could argue that's what we're getting, though I see your point. We aren't getting any undead themed abilties (as far as we know at this time). However, that's entirely my point. A class symbol should make you think, not guess. Right now, we're guessing what in the world this stuff means, and that sounds great when you're excited for a game as we are, however not so great when you're buying merchandise with your class symbols on it. Something about that don't sit right with me. I can't help but feel like Undead-themed as the Dark Knight symbol is, it is superior in every way imaginable to what we have now with Dire Lord. Not saying we should use it, just that I would prefer it hands down.
Kastor said: The class symbols are not good. EQ had better design 20 years ago. Ugh. I should be able to look at them and say yeah that's a monk. That's a shaman. And you just can't.
No, you really can't. Everquest, Everquest 2, even Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. They all had far superior class symbols that were very indicative of their purpose and class title(Aside from Disciple). I'll link Vanguard's below for anyone who doesn't remember how great they were. A bloody Rose for Blood Mage, was pure genius for a class that was pure genius to match.
Some of the reasoning behind the symbology is lore-based. Also some is class ability related. If you had more knowledge of the lore and class specifics, it might make total sense.
Are class symbols that tell the story of the class specific to the world of Pantheon a bad thing, even if they are not immediately, trivially obvious?
The cleric symbol, for example, is a hammer (they use blunt weapons, though it may have more specific meaning) and what looks like the Celestial Aegis shield wall, one of their iconic abilities. The druid is probably the diety Masae and the blob the sun and/or moon.
The paladin symbol looks like a tower stronghold and drawbridge encorporating a hammer all symbolic of their strong protective nature. This seems more generic, but may have a direct link to lore or class ability we don't know about yet (or I just haven't connected yet - perhaps I'll go re-read the paladin-related lore we've been given before).
Personally I don't mind the stylised symbols or the non-obvious references. Look at heraldic symbols in real life and it's often ambiguous and heavily stylised, but almost always has a deeper meaning related to the family, place or whatever it represents.
I'm looking forward to learning what these symbols mean as classes and related lore gets fleshed out and revealed.
I disagree that Vanguard, EQ2, EQ, or any other MMOs I have seen mentioned had clear or easily read class symbols across the board. If you take away the names and just had symbols to go on I could maybe figure out half of any of these lists at best without relying on lucky guesses.
disposalist said:Some of the reasoning behind the symbology is lore-based. Also some is class ability related. If you had more knowledge of the lore and class specifics, it might make total sense.
Are class symbols that tell the story of the class specific to the world of Pantheon a bad thing, even if they are not immediately, trivially obvious?
The cleric symbol, for example, is a hammer (they use blunt weapons, though it may have more specific meaning) and what looks like the Celestial Aegis shield wall, one of their iconic abilities. The druid is probably the diety Masae and the blob the sun and/or moon.
The paladin symbol looks like a tower stronghold and drawbridge encorporating a hammer all symbolic of their strong protective nature. This seems more generic, but may have a direct link to lore or class ability we don't know about yet (or I just haven't connected yet - perhaps I'll go re-read the paladin-related lore we've been given before).
Personally I don't mind the stylised symbols or the non-obvious references. Look at heraldic symbols in real life and it's often ambiguous and heavily stylised, but almost always has a deeper meaning related to the family, place or whatever it represents.
I'm looking forward to learning what these symbols mean as classes and related lore gets fleshed out and revealed.
Sure, but do you really want to tell strangers coming into this game to pledge money to it that they have to go read 2-3 pages of lore before they understand their class symbols that they want to buy merchandise for? This isn't just a in-game problem with ugly ambigious symbols, it's a marketing problem as several people here have said they would buy mugs and shirts, if only the symbols weren't a problem. If just 3 of those people bought a shirt, that's $90 the company just lost out on. One shouldn't have to read a class-dossier to understand a symbol. A symbol is supposed to make things easier, not harder to understand. That's the entire purpose of road signs in the present day, so even people that don't know that country's language can easily drive there. I want people that don't know our language to be able to drive here. I just think that's a good idea from every angle.
Mariska said:Sure, but do you really want to tell strangers coming into this game to pledge money to it that they have to go read 2-3 pages of lore before they understand their class symbols that they want to buy merchandise for? This isn't just a in-game problem with ugly ambigious symbols, it's a marketing problem as several people here have said they would buy mugs and shirts, if only the symbols weren't a problem. If just 3 of those people bought a shirt, that's $90 the company just lost out on. One shouldn't have to read a class-dossier to understand a symbol. A symbol is supposed to make things easier, not harder to understand. That's the entire purpose of road signs in the present day, so even people that don't know that country's language can easily drive there. I want people that don't know our language to be able to drive here. I just think that's a good idea from every angle.
I do not agree. I also do not agree when you said EQ or VG class icons were more evident, the example you pointed earlier with bloodmage having a red rose is the LEAST speaking example you could find. Nothing related with either using blood, healing or beeing a mage.
The point is just : Old icon we were used to see them, know them, identify them and possibly tried out classes even if we didn't play them on the long run.
Here we got icons but no classes to know as it's only Teasers and NYI. They don't seem less obvious than any icons I saw in the past, and I like the epured style they have taken on them, EQ ones were too complex and fluff, also corning classes in some cliche.
Mariska said:One shouldn't have to read a class-dossier to understand a symbol. A symbol is supposed to make things easier, not harder to understand. That's the entire purpose of road signs in the present day, so even people that don't know that country's language can easily drive there. I want people that don't know our language to be able to drive here. I just think that's a good idea from every angle.
No one has to read all of that, and that's not how symbols work. The vast majority of symbols in this world are things one has been taught at some point, in a vacuum no one would look at a red octagon and just know it means stop. Even extremely important symbols aren't immediately obvious much of the time without having to first learn to associate the image with the object/idea it conveys, just look at the majority of hazard symbols which are intended to save lives.
The class symbols are far less important and something mostly for the "in" crowd to understand, not so much for someone sitting on the bus to look at and understand. Much like how one could wear a shirt with symbols of the different nations from The Last Airbender, someone unfamiliar won't have a clue what the shirt/symbols are.
This is an easy fix for the art Dept.
You're thinking 2 dimensionally! a tic? a lamp?, the anthropologist would hardly let such cultural bias influence their observation.
All the art depts has to do is show the thing and resolve it to the abstract. That abstract being the symbol and then you will say - ohhh (one word for the merch shop? sealing wax stamps)
You have seen this I know you have, the evolution goes something like: the aboriginal that spit white stuff against his hand leaving a hand print on a rock, and the child that does similar to make a turkey image in profile for thanksgiving and the artistry of Kieth Allen Haring. The ESP symbol of 2 wavy lines that represent waves/current even in electrical drawings. the U that is transversed by a line to represent a bull-
You might as well say the same about the glyph like images used for astrology, for they looks nothing like the stars. So are these symbols, I reckon.
Don't flame me, but for the most part, I like the class logos. Simple but unique. Thought-provoking. Take Monk for example. One might think, what the heck does that have to do with a monk, but read the monk's class specific resource and the lore behind it. The logo then makes sense.
MauvaisOeil said:Mariska said:Sure, but do you really want to tell strangers coming into this game to pledge money to it that they have to go read 2-3 pages of lore before they understand their class symbols that they want to buy merchandise for? This isn't just a in-game problem with ugly ambigious symbols, it's a marketing problem as several people here have said they would buy mugs and shirts, if only the symbols weren't a problem. If just 3 of those people bought a shirt, that's $90 the company just lost out on. One shouldn't have to read a class-dossier to understand a symbol. A symbol is supposed to make things easier, not harder to understand. That's the entire purpose of road signs in the present day, so even people that don't know that country's language can easily drive there. I want people that don't know our language to be able to drive here. I just think that's a good idea from every angle.
I do not agree. I also do not agree when you said EQ or VG class icons were more evident, the example you pointed earlier with bloodmage having a red rose is the LEAST speaking example you could find. Nothing related with either using blood, healing or beeing a mage.
The point is just : Old icon we were used to see them, know them, identify them and possibly tried out classes even if we didn't play them on the long run.
Here we got icons but no classes to know as it's only Teasers and NYI. They don't seem less obvious than any icons I saw in the past, and I like the epured style they have taken on them, EQ ones were too complex and fluff, also corning classes in some cliche.
Yeah, you missed the point. The reason I mentioned it was because it was the most ambigious. Although if you look close the thorns on the rose had blood on them, and it was a red rose, symbolic of blood, the heart, and love. Sure, I could've gone with something easy like Ranger, although I'm fairly certain even the most mentally obtuse person could easily identify a Bow and Quiver icon matching the Bow using class in the game. If someone couldn't figure that out, well...lol
randomrob82 said:Don't flame me, but for the most part, I like the class logos. Simple but unique. Thought-provoking. Take Monk for example. One might think, what the heck does that have to do with a monk, but read the monk's class specific resource and the lore behind it. The logo then makes sense.
Yeah, I'm not seeing it. If you could explain it to me though, I would really appreciate it, as Monk is one class i"m excited to play.
Manouk said:This is an easy fix for the art Dept.
You're thinking 2 dimensionally! a tic? a lamp?, the anthropologist would hardly let such cultural bias influence their observation.
All the art depts has to do is show the thing and resolve it to the abstract. That abstract being the symbol and then you will say - ohhh (one word for the merch shop? sealing wax stamps)
You have seen this I know you have, the evolution goes something like: the aboriginal that spit white stuff against his hand leaving a hand print on a rock, and the child that does similar to make a turkey image in profile for thanksgiving and the artistry of Kieth Allen Haring. The ESP symbol of 2 wavy lines that represent waves/current even in electrical drawings. the U that is transversed by a line to represent a bull-
You might as well say the same about the glyph like images used for astrology, for they looks nothing like the stars. So are these symbols, I reckon.
The symbols are abstract? That's news to me. Nothing about them seems abstract...
Iksar said:Mariska said:One shouldn't have to read a class-dossier to understand a symbol. A symbol is supposed to make things easier, not harder to understand. That's the entire purpose of road signs in the present day, so even people that don't know that country's language can easily drive there. I want people that don't know our language to be able to drive here. I just think that's a good idea from every angle.
No one has to read all of that, and that's not how symbols work. The vast majority of symbols in this world are things one has been taught at some point, in a vacuum no one would look at a red octagon and just know it means stop. Even extremely important symbols aren't immediately obvious much of the time without having to first learn to associate the image with the object/idea it conveys, just look at the majority of hazard symbols which are intended to save lives.
The class symbols are far less important and something mostly for the "in" crowd to understand, not so much for someone sitting on the bus to look at and understand. Much like how one could wear a shirt with symbols of the different nations from The Last Airbender, someone unfamiliar won't have a clue what the shirt/symbols are.
Right, but you can make that statement about literally anything. Nobody in a vacuum knows what anything means. That's not even what I'm talking about. In Vanguard the Quiver and Arrows was obvious to anyone that the class used Archery as a form of combat. The Bard's symbol was the head of an instrument, even a layman can easily surmise that they have something to do with music. Some icons were ambigious in Vanguard, but as several people stated earlier that's only part of the problem. Regardless, these are examples of good icons that are easy to understand and symbolic of the class they're tied to. This is something everyone should want.
I am going to have to agree. If you took the arrow away form the Ranger one then I wouold never have guessed which class it was. I think the middle thing is a weird two pronged sword and the side things are maybe stylized talons, which is all I can come up with that is Ranger associated. Like others, I can live with it, but not something I particularly like.
yeah the class symbols are hard to se what they mean perhaps because they are still black and white. ofcourse everyone will memorize the picture in time but it really kinda crappy to guess what they mean and disposalist i really dont think the cleric symbol is the Celestial Aegis shield wall, it is a hammer and a book !
Aqua said:yeah the class symbols are hard to se what they mean perhaps because they are still black and white. ofcourse everyone will memorize the picture in time but it really kinda crappy to guess what they mean and disposalist i really dont think the cleric symbol is the Celestial Aegis shield wall, it is a hammer and a book !
It's a weird book with a shaped top and a completely flat base, but the point is, we may not know straight away from looking now, but we will once we know the story behind them.
Personally, I'm fine with them not being totally obvious.