Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Discussion: Ability points in Pantheon (from 01.30 dev stream)

    • 1428 posts
    January 31, 2020 10:40 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    It's...okay. I am glad someone will be able to eventually upgrade every ability so it isn't as much of a "spec" or "build" kind of thing. I feel talent/AA trees are bad and only ever offer the illsion of choice to appease a certain type of gamer. I find it to be a far greater boon to a game when "every" is the same in terms of abilities/capability at max level, for grouping/balancing/challenge/enconter design. 

     

    I still think this system is going to suffer from "optimal paths" but perhaps less so than talent/AA trees generally are since you can't fully "waste" points. 

    there's always going to be optimal paths, however, catering to specific styles via ability point allocation is something vr needs to polish into the combat.

    it would be better for them to have it where one can't obtain everything with an unlimited source of ability point gains. meaning if i need 5k ability points to get every ability at max rank, soft cap it at 2k.

     

    to refine what i mean by specific styles is, let's say someone wants to smash more buttons at the cost of longer cast times with less resource costs(preemptive buffer casting) vs someone that was twitch reflex at the cost of longer cooldowns, resouce intensive or heavy gcd(animation recovery frames), they should have the option to tailor the styles.

    having more combat gates only helps devs balance the game(install gcd pls) and allow more player expression.

     

    • 2752 posts
    January 31, 2020 10:50 AM PST

    stellarmind said:

    having more combat gates only helps devs balance the game(install gcd pls) and allow more player expression.

    I think adding more and more dials+switches and variations on which are/can be turned on and dialed to what for each class makes balancing far more complicated...not sure how that makes things easier on devs seeking class balance or for designing encounters. 

    • 287 posts
    January 31, 2020 10:52 AM PST

    I think this ability point system could be amazing if it is implemented properly. It would create incentive for the "horizontal prgression" that has been one of the main tenants in creating Pantheon. If you want to max out your current abilities, then you would be forced to explore, quest, and perhaps kill more unique named monsters. It takes away from the monotony of grinding.

    When the grind gets boring and you want something different, this horizontal ability point progression is yet another unique thing to keep us engaged, in addition to tradeskilling/fishing/node hunting/trading wares, etc.

    I would also like to see ability points be used for things other than spells/abilities such as inherent racial traits, base stats, and perhaps even tradeskill stuff or faction buffs (i.e. every time you gain faction with X, that gain will be increased 10%). It is clear that the intent is that every character should be able to max out everything with enough grinding (which should absolutely be the case) and the more options you provide players, the more incentive you create for this horizontal progression.

    • 1428 posts
    January 31, 2020 11:05 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    stellarmind said:

    having more combat gates only helps devs balance the game(install gcd pls) and allow more player expression.

    I think adding more and more dials+switches and variations on which are/can be turned on and dialed to what for each class makes balancing far more complicated...not sure how that makes things easier on devs seeking class balance or for designing encounters. 

    it gives more options to balance.  it doesn't really make balancing harder.  class balancing is always on going.  this also gives more options to have class designs feel more unique.  i mean, we can always go back to just tank healer dps as the only 3 classes to choose from.  it'd be much easier to balance, but it's not really fun to have just 3 classes.

     

    as the game stands so far las12:

    we can add or subtract cast bar

    we can add or subtract the recource cost

    we can add or subtract the cooldown

     

    opening the floor to have gcd on an individual ability basis also gives the option to have a super strong ability, instant cast, high cost(50% of current mana), with short cooldown(1 min), but drops a disgusting gcd(10 secs)

    • 133 posts
    January 31, 2020 11:31 AM PST

    Something like this had to be implemented with care. I know they said in stream that Pantheon is not going to have specialized classes, or separations of a class for specialization, but with with Ability Points system, things could go that way. It could end up being that people only want certain tanks with certain abilities in the AP system, it could even be that they prefer paladins with ability A over ability B because ability A has slighlty better healing factors that B. I get where they are goign with this ultimately, in that they don't want people to feel constricted by the base classes, and want people to be able to customize their characters as much as they wany. Even having it where everyone can get every ability in that section with these points, you are still goign to have people that are divided in the beginning on what they have. That's fine, but it could be used as a means to exclude one player from a group because he or she didn't pick what is collectively agreed upon as being better. Eventually that person will get it, but at the tiem of not having it it could be detrimental to his or her leveling experience and questing experience. Overall, my opinion on this is that if it's going to be done, then it needs to be done with care and they really need to think this over.

    • 1921 posts
    January 31, 2020 11:57 AM PST

    Having an in-game method to customize... abilities (skills/spells) , within caps, would be great.  It's no different than crafting systems that let you adjust certain aspects of armor and weapons via enchanments.
    There is a cap, per item, that cannot be exceeded, even if you put the best augments/enchants/whatever into the item.  In simple terms, each tier of item (white, green, blue, purple, orange, etc) has a numeric cap that you cannot exceed, and each positive feature of the item contributes to that cap.

    Similarly, the same method can be applied to abilities, via the same method and caps.   There is also the trivial method of ranged multi-caps per item.  None of this is new.
    --
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4084/item-durability-amp-decay/view/post_id/65582 .
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4170/looting-rules/view/post_id/67152 .
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4223/things-i-wish-for/view/post_id/68045 .
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4955/state-of-the-mmo-industry/view/post_id/82738 .
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5098/end-game-discussion-raiding-and-alternatives/view/post_id/86886 .
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5482/personal-environments-theorycrafting/view/post_id/152553 .
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9486/class-damage-specific-colors/view/post_id/181503 .
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9714/class-differentiation-discussion-critcal-assessment/view/post_id/186162 .
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9717/go-out-and-find-abilities/view/post_id/186315 .
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/10099/skills-character-progression-and-character-diversity/view/post_id/193181 .
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/10396/unique-and-ultra-rare-loot/view/post_id/200726 .
    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/11099/rigidity-and-balance-or-flexibility-and-chaos/view/post_id/215343 .
    --
    I'm disappointed (but only a little, because I didn't really expect it) that they haven't chosen full ability customization, either through gear augments/enchantments, or via spending 'points', XP, social currency,  or whatever other thing.
    I am very concerned about the potential for points to be dropped as loot from creatures.  That is a mistake, I'll say it here and now, so hopefully they pull back on that decision.
    I'm also concerned about the focus on types of 'currency' discussed in this context.  EQ1 suffered from currency-type poisoning after 2004, and it's not ideal in light of historically superior systems.

    • 1428 posts
    January 31, 2020 12:13 PM PST

    vjek said:

    I'm disappointed (but only a little, because I didn't really expect it) that they haven't chosen full ability customization, either through gear augments/enchantments, or via spending 'points', XP, social currency,  or whatever other thing.
    I am very concerned about the potential for points to be dropped as loot from creatures.  That is a mistake, I'll say it here and now, so hopefully they pull back on that decision.
    I'm also concerned about the focus on types of 'currency' discussed in this context.  EQ1 suffered from currency-type poisoning after 2004, and it's not ideal in light of historically superior systems.

    all it would take is a soft cap.

    let's say ability capsule normally gives 10 skill points.  if i already have accumulated 500, it would only give me 3 ability points instead.

    • 1921 posts
    January 31, 2020 12:24 PM PST

    Sounds like Loot Diminishing Returns, stellarmind.  That did not go well for GW2. :)
    Your logic is sound, yet, I think Loot DR would be incredibly unpopular as a mechanic in Pantheon. 
    Especially without personal loot or smart loot, as has been outlined to date.

    • 1428 posts
    January 31, 2020 12:42 PM PST

    vjek said:

    Sounds like Loot Diminishing Returns, stellarmind.  That did not go well for GW2. :)
    Your logic is sound, yet, I think Loot DR would be incredibly unpopular as a mechanic in Pantheon. 
    Especially without personal loot or smart loot, as has been outlined to date.

    dr loot is no bueno, but putting dr in the gain of ability point gains is desirable without affecting loot tables :o

    guess i should have clarified that the loot capsule drop would have different values depending on where one is with accumulated ability points.

     

    just to give context, bdo has something similar in place.  the way it functions is based abilty point xp.  leveling up to level 5 will net 25 points.  at higher total ability point values, leveling may only yield 1 point. 

    • 2138 posts
    January 31, 2020 12:50 PM PST

    I could also see a Temple of Solusek Ro type quest? where you can change your specialization? but instead of specialization you can maybe move three ability gems/dots in your living codex Making it a truly living codex.

    Maybe another place in the same area/temple where you can exchange skill gems/dots for spell gems/dots? for ability gems/dots?. The exchange would be something to figure out like maybe 5 skill stones for 3 spell gems, or 2 spell gems for 1 ability disc/coin. 

           This is where the fractional math can be good to vex the problem solvers because this is where people will be willing to spend the time to figure out the math so they dont have any left over. Not like in trade skills where there is a risk of failure and you have to reverse back up to make an even amount. This is a straight up, concerted, definite end and worth the time it takes to figure it out, even discuss. "I would like 5 but if I turn in 3 I get 2, but that leaves 1 left over in spells that I cant use, but if I do 4, I only get 1 in spells and none left over but one left over in skills that I could put- wherever, what do you think?"

    The nice thing is, it would create math people that would post handy charts on third party sites to help people figure it out and they would be praised. Frustrated newbies would use it frivolously at first for good reasons, like casters putting into AC so they can take more hits and maybe live long enough to get some spells off when fighting a spiderling, or the warrior putting into abilities so they can get better at weapons so if they kill the spiderling faster they may be able to have some health left.

    Then later they can go and exchange them out for more proper things once the understand their class a bit better and that would sort of be a built in self-directed horizontal leveler? because the exchange would always be costly to an extent, or not exactly fair but you can plan from earning ability points and then add it to your exchange hopes- more math ugh!, but a good ugh. So when you do make the trek to the temple you can make your swaps and see how things go.

    Maybe the trip to the temple can be limited to once a year or something for dot/gem moves, or echanges so you can go twice; once to move them around within spells and abilities and skills, and again to exchange. 

    Once you echange, you have to place. Only after you place, then you can move them. You could do both the same day I suppose but it might be worth it to wait

    • 1281 posts
    January 31, 2020 1:05 PM PST

    In general, this stream was well put together and directed. The quality has been steadily increasing, thanks.

    My only feedback is, for the next stream, if you take questions again is it possible to know who will be in the stream? That way we can gear questions towards those in attendance.

    • 416 posts
    January 31, 2020 1:46 PM PST

    As presented, I like the abiity point system and the idea that the points will be gained not just through leveing, but also via questing and exploring. As others have pointed out it will encourage horizontal progression and exploration.

    • 159 posts
    January 31, 2020 6:40 PM PST

    I like what I seen so far. I'll wait until alpha when I get to put these systems to the test to give any real honest feedback. That is what alpha and beta is for. My imagination is going wild about all the abilities each class might have. I'm actually more excited and looking forward to alpha now.  I was going to set out this last stream. I'm glad that I changed my mind now.

     

    On other subjest. bigdogchris said - for the next stream, if you take questions again is it possible to know who will be in the stream? That way we can gear questions towards those in attendance.    I totally agree with him here. Poor Jason looked so bored. He also looks like Jase Robertson.  LOL

    • 238 posts
    January 31, 2020 9:05 PM PST

    Nephele said:

    During the stream earlier this evening, Joppa talked to us about "ability points" which will be earned by players and used to upgrade individual abilities in the Living Codex.  Here's what we know so far:

    - You'll earn ability points as you level, but you'll also continue to earn points via some method after reaching the level maximum.

    - At least for the moment, there does not seem to be a cap on ability points, meaning that you can eventually upgrade every ability you know.

    - It was mentioned that there may be different quantities of ability points required to upgrade abilities

    - It was also mentioned that there may be different ways to earn ability points, or different types of ability points to earn, especially for the highest upgrade levels or for epic abilities.

    - The system was described as a "hybrid" of EQ's alternate advancement and WoW's talent trees - in the sense that they wanted you to earn these as you play and level, but they want them to be additive to your character, instead of being a specialization.

    I strongly recommend that folks watch the recording of the stream if you haven't had a chance yet.  If it's not already available it should be by tomorrow morning, I think.

     

    I am curious what everyone thinks of this approach, so I wanted to start a discussion thread about it.  Here are some questions just to get us started.

    1) How should players be able to earn ability points?

    2) Should there be different types of ability points to earn, and if so, what should they be used for and how should they differ from each other?

    3) If ability points are directly tied into upgrading abilities, how can max-level content be balanced so that it isn't trivially easy for people with all their abilities upgraded, or crushingly difficult for someone who doesn't have many of their abilities upgraded?  Should some high-level content be specifically designed for characters with lots of upgraded abilities?

    4) In general, how long should it take after reaching max level before we have all our abilities upgraded?  How much gameplay should be required to get to that point?

    5) How can this system scale if the level cap is raised in expansions later on?

    Joppa was actually lurking about in PantheonPlus's stream after the newsletter. He was kind enough to address some of these questions and provide more information in chat. 

    1. Ability points will come from level-ups, but he also said that they might come from quests/ dropped items. He said that epic abilities would function a bit differently and that the "ability" points to level these would come to from other sources and be a bit different in the process required to obtain them.

    2. See #1 regarding epic abilities.

    3. Was not directly answered. However, the question of respecting ability points did come up and I believe Joppa stated that they were looking into having it cost money that would increase each with each reset. There was no mention of decaying value or if the cost would increased based on how many points you had/were allowed at the time. 

    There is was also no news related to the number of abilities that you can have slotted. As of now that number still remains 12. It might be possible to see a set number of ability modifications at any one point in time. Meaning that before you proceed into a high-level dungeon you are going to have to consider your ability point build given your current group comp/ situational circumstance. This might be the best way to set a limit on the strength gained through the acquisition and allotment of ability points. 

    4. Joppa stated that they were considering adding ability points that came from multiple sources. He didn't confirm/deny that eventually every ability could or couldn't be raised to max level of modification. Based on his first response though, it is safe to assume that a decent amount of gameplay will be involved in terms of finding and earning these points.

    5. Was not answered. However, Joppa did say that the text seen in the newsletter was just place holder. He said that abilities will also see modifications in terms of how they behave as well.

    It is safe to assume that the core ability will level up with your character in some way (either naturally or by a rank increase). This would allow them to carry on into future expansions. It might also be possible to see some remodifications or new modifications as expansions are released. As for how ability point obtainment/ scaling could be handled it depends on how they are initially implemented. As I said we still don't know if you can fully upgrade every ability. It could be possible that it just scales based on the overall function of the spell. For example Preserver's Wildfire is a druid ability. If the modification was implemented to prevent it from breaking CC then that would make it a viable AOE heal regardless of content/level. It could be that this scaling is related to the overall number of points you can obtain. 

     


    This post was edited by Baldur at January 31, 2020 9:05 PM PST
    • 1785 posts
    February 1, 2020 7:52 AM PST

    Baldur said:

     

    Lots of stuff 

    Appreciate you bringing that extra info to this thread Baldur :)  I wasn't able to be in Minus's stream afterwards so it's really helpful!

    I do want to point out however that the intent of this thread is to get community opinions on the system.  The questions I put in the first post were really there just to help people form their thoughts.  That's why I used the word should, rather than will.

    So with that in mind, what's your take?  Do you like the system?  Not like it?  How do you think it can be improved?

     


    This post was edited by Nephele at February 1, 2020 7:54 AM PST
    • 627 posts
    February 3, 2020 7:30 AM PST
    Love the idea, love the costimazation options, love that xp matters. You dont need every ability to max to be funtionable, but some upgrades will clearly make a BIG difference, and will force players to make a choice that matters on what to lvl first, next and what to leave untuched for awhile.
    • 2138 posts
    February 3, 2020 8:14 AM PST

    The other thing I got out of the Dev stream was the behind-the-scenes Fix on performance? something about stack overflow redundancy fix that was huge. I got the impression that this was a big deal as far as overall performance.

     

    Some comments imply looking at these abilities and throwing in "class balance". There will be no class balance. Casters will be weak, Fighters will be strong. If a fighter gets their hands on a caster, the caster will die. If a fighter cannot reach a caster, the caster will cast a spell and the warrior will die. Basically put. There will be subtle differences but that is the basics- no balancing.

    • 2138 posts
    February 3, 2020 8:14 AM PST

    *duped on back arrowing*


    This post was edited by Manouk at February 3, 2020 8:14 AM PST
    • 1019 posts
    February 3, 2020 8:44 AM PST

    I'm thinking along the lines of this: 

    To reach Max level while getting all the base level of your abilities should take an average player about 8 months.  Getting all those abilties upgraded to Max should take an additional 8 months.

     

    Hare Core players should take 5 months max level and an additional 5 months of, whatever it is we need to do, to get our abilities all to max.

    • 3852 posts
    February 3, 2020 9:31 AM PST

    As always I disagree with the one-tree people on this issue. What they say is entirely correct but I simply balance the importance of different truths in a very different way.

    Yes letting any character max out every upgradable ability prevemts people from being excluded from raids or groups because they do not have the "spec of the month" that is considered the best for their class. That month. 

    Yes letting any character max out any upgradable ability means that someone that puts hundreds or thousands of hours into a character doesn't need to be second-best at some things because the game mechanics force a choice on them.

    Valid points and I agree with them. But I give more weight to the benefit of having choices in the game - choices that matter. Preventing every maximumn level character of the same class from being identical so long as the player put the time in to maximize everything.

    I want race to matter - so that a character of race X can never ever ever be as good at the specialty of another race no matter how much time is invested.

    I want attributes to matter - so that if you pick defense oriented attributes over damage oriented attributes (if that were to be a choice) you would never ever ever be able to do as much damage given comparable gear etc.

    Similarly I want character customization trees to give choices so that if my ranged damage character specializes in the longbow she will never ever ever be as good at certain things as the character that specialized in the crossbow.

    I am an altoholic - I simply value choices and reasons for having multiple characters even of the same class more highly than being able to make any one character "the best" it can be in all respects. Both views are entirely legitimate but mine works far better for my style of play.


    This post was edited by dorotea at February 3, 2020 9:32 AM PST
    • 73 posts
    February 3, 2020 11:21 AM PST

    I really love it
    the fact that when you reach the maximum level the experience is still important, to be able to continuously progese your character
    have the feeling that you are not wasting your time when you are in the game after killing the boss X that was scheduled for that day

    • 1428 posts
    February 3, 2020 11:38 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    As always I disagree with the one-tree people on this issue. What they say is entirely correct but I simply balance the importance of different truths in a very different way.

    Yes letting any character max out every upgradable ability prevemts people from being excluded from raids or groups because they do not have the "spec of the month" that is considered the best for their class. That month. 

    Yes letting any character max out any upgradable ability means that someone that puts hundreds or thousands of hours into a character doesn't need to be second-best at some things because the game mechanics force a choice on them.

    Valid points and I agree with them. But I give more weight to the benefit of having choices in the game - choices that matter. Preventing every maximumn level character of the same class from being identical so long as the player put the time in to maximize everything.

    I want race to matter - so that a character of race X can never ever ever be as good at the specialty of another race no matter how much time is invested.

    I want attributes to matter - so that if you pick defense oriented attributes over damage oriented attributes (if that were to be a choice) you would never ever ever be able to do as much damage given comparable gear etc.

    Similarly I want character customization trees to give choices so that if my ranged damage character specializes in the longbow she will never ever ever be as good at certain things as the character that specialized in the crossbow.

    I am an altoholic - I simply value choices and reasons for having multiple characters even of the same class more highly than being able to make any one character "the best" it can be in all respects. Both views are entirely legitimate but mine works far better for my style of play.

    that's the funny part of it.

    people want diversity.

    when they are given it, they cry inequality.

    some things are naturally going to be imbalanced.  sometimes it is the devs, but really, it's the perception of balance that matters.  the reality is that one thing can't be good at everything and everything has a price.

    complain at imba racials?  solution to have no racials at all.  that's perfectly balanced.  is it fun?  no.

    complain about imba classes?  solution to gut all classes to be functionally the same(with different flavour text and appeareance).  that's perfectly balanced.  is it fun that every dps class is essentially the same?  no.

     

    if ya ask me, there's 3 ways to balance something:

    1.  nerf

    2.  buff

    3.  create more situationally diverse encounters

     

    1 and 2 are very easy to do.  3, however, requires alot more work and time.  tends to be the best way to do it, but 1 and 2 is a quick fix(that instant gratification).

    • 2130 posts
    February 3, 2020 11:50 AM PST

    Honestly, I hope Pantheon ends up with community class leads and a small community of highly skilled/knowledgeable players to contribute feedback. Something like that is integral to balancing a game imo.

    Devs can't possibly do their jobs and also be on top of every nuance of gameplay at every level at the same time.

    • 2752 posts
    February 3, 2020 1:00 PM PST

    Yeah, I'd much rather be able to pick up any given class at max level and know exactly what they bring to the table aside from the skill of the player behind them rather than having to weed through AAs/talents/specs (and the endless balance complaints they bring) so that players could enjoy their illusion of choice/need to feel slightly special (using the community decided/mathematically optimum build most everyone else is using no less) next to others of their same class. 

    • 2756 posts
    February 4, 2020 4:52 AM PST

    Liav said:

    Honestly, I hope Pantheon ends up with community class leads and a small community of highly skilled/knowledgeable players to contribute feedback. Something like that is integral to balancing a game imo.

    Devs can't possibly do their jobs and also be on top of every nuance of gameplay at every level at the same time.

    Whilst that is true, you have to remember that the majority of players aren't highly skilled and knowledgeable or having powerful characters.  If you balance for those players, the game might be awful for the majority of (average) players.

    It's a contentious thing in my favoured FPS, Battlefield.  When the devs design and balance with the average player in mind, reducing the skill floor and the skill gap, the YouTubers and clan players and pro (wannabe) players ***** and moan like crazy because it gives 'noobs' the chance to kill them.

    Then they make a bunch of changes in response to the 'elite' players and the game becomes horrible to play for the average player (the majority of the fanbase) and a bit of a mess.

    The 'top' players say they are the 'real' fans and should be catered to, but if you do, you risk ruining the game for the majority of 'normal' players.

    It's a bit different for an MMORPG, but similar.  I don't think I want a game balanced for hardcore raiders and super guilds.

    It might be tough, but I really hope VR *do* try and be on top of gameplay at every level or at least make sure their 'representative' player community is very varied and includes 'average' players. They just need to be articulate and willing to give a little time for feedback.