Forums » The Warrior

Warriors and Two Handers

    • 4 posts
    January 25, 2020 9:40 PM PST

    Hi, I have been following the game for a bit now, but recently decided to pledge. Anyway, I know others have posted this before, but I just wanted to add my voice in that I really hope Warriors are viable with 2 handers, as it stands it seems they really revolve around using a shield. However, the picture on the warrior page clearly shows a 2 hander. I'd also like to add some reasoning as to why not only should warriors be viable with a 2 hander, but actually be more viable with one in certain situations. Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ofqIc1g1nI When warriors (real warriors) use mail, they NEEDED a shield, as mail wasn't strong enough. Now, move onto the 14th and 15th centurues, when full plate came in. They dropped the shield and moved to a 2 hander https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VaNfeBj6jA ;(4:20 onward) because a shield wasn't needed anymore with plate, a larger weapon was the better choice. By the 15th century (following video) He is in full plate, and doesn't have a shield at all. Here is another video, just watch the first 90 seconds, plate = no shield needed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5mqf-GNIXI 

    So yes, this is real life versus a game. However, I have always liked the option of being in full plate and swinging around a big two hander, and I know I am not alone here. I want to make clear that 1) I am not asking to be a pure DPS warrior, I think tanking with a 2 hander, cleaving enemies down and parrying attacks should be viable. 2) in PvP a 2 hander is much more enjoyable. 3) It could be situational, a shield vs some things and 2 hand tanking vs others in PvE. 4) If you want to use a shield, I'm not looking to take that option from you, I just dont think a plate warrior should revolve around a shield. Maybe have mail with a shield be an option, with some benefit and negative? (lighter but attacks that bypass the shield do more damage) 

    Heavily armored melee is always my go to, I'm not asking to out dps glass cannons but I'd like to wear plate and be a threat damage wise. 


    This post was edited by Cruor at January 25, 2020 11:24 PM PST
    • 473 posts
    January 26, 2020 12:18 AM PST

    There are very few Warrior abilities that actually require you to have a shield equipped (Shield Block for example), so you should be able to hold aggro with a 2hd or dual wield. The 2 main problems that do jump out, is that 1) Shield Block is used to generate resillience and 2) The damage not mitigated from the AC gain + shield actually blocking - may not be worth the DPS gain from not using a shield. I am in your boat though, as I plan to use a 2hd mace on the Paladin. I think it comes down to how hard the content is (zone and level) and if it makes sense to do so, whether it be from a dps or a healer drain (mana) standpoint. As for your 'roleplay' aspect of it, you should be able to play this way if you want to - it just may not be "ideal". Hope this helps.

    • 804 posts
    January 27, 2020 5:00 PM PST

    I'm thinking that the shield may only be required if you are having issues with mitigating damage and holding threat; I say this because at this time the warrior description says "tanking abilities requiring shields".  With that said, warriors can also use every weapon for a reason - I am sure there will be multiple warriors in a single group, allowing one to use sword-n-board while others DPS.  Although their DPS won't be as high as a ranger, rogue or monk, they will likely be higher sustained DPS than a warrior using a shield.  Another good point to take notice of is that there is a fairly safe bet that you will be able to swap weapons while in combat and I would assume that most warriors will be able to swap from dual wield to sword-n-board to use certain abilities but swapping from 2h to sword-n-board may not be as efficient if there is no macro system or built in weapon swap mechanic built in.  If there is a weapon swap mechanic or macro I will be doing this often as a Paladin.

    • 37 posts
    January 28, 2020 2:53 PM PST

    Looking at all the classes I was a little sad that there wasn't a heavily armored melee DPS class. Hopefully thats something we can see in post launch expansions, the crusader/knight/berserker type class. For now it's just rogue and melee weaving with rangers.

    • 473 posts
    January 28, 2020 7:10 PM PST

    @Nesy Don't forget Monks. Rogues & Monks are the 2 melee dps classes (Ranger is getting reworked to be more range-focused).

    • 37 posts
    January 28, 2020 7:13 PM PST

    You just got me all hyped for monks again. Thanks @Fragile, I really needed this after a long hard day.

    • 4 posts
    January 29, 2020 4:55 PM PST

    Monks and Rogues don't "do it" for me. I am still also really hoping for a heavily armoed charcter that can do fair damage. Again, not isisting 2h Warriors be #1 damage and #1 tanks, just that tanks and DPSing with a 2 hander be viable. Like, 2 handing vs more magic heavy mobds, because why use a shield there anyway. Also, again in PvP I'd much rather have a 2 hand option. 

    • 473 posts
    January 29, 2020 6:59 PM PST

    @Cruor then you want a Dire Lord.

    • 4 posts
    January 29, 2020 9:58 PM PST

    Fragile said:

    @Cruor then you want a Dire Lord.

     

    They aren't plate, but yeah if warriors cant use 2 hands (being able to hold one and be effective with it are two differnt things) it may be the way to go. 

    • 473 posts
    January 30, 2020 12:16 AM PST

    Armor won't matter against casters ("Like, 2 handing vs more magic heavy mobs") and Warriors should be able to use 2hd just fine, if you look at their skills, only the shield based ones require you to have shield equipped (Shield Slam, Shield Block, etc). So, Angering Blow for example doesn't require anything but probably a weapon equipped.

    • 2575 posts
    January 30, 2020 3:01 PM PST

    I get the aesthetic desire to be a DPS badass in full plate with a 2hander or two weapons...but from a game/balance perspective I don't understand. Top of the line armor mitigation and equal footing in damage with other DPS classes? I just don't see it. A berserker class in leathers that focuses on 2h fighting perhaps, but plate? Eh.

    • 473 posts
    January 30, 2020 9:38 PM PST

    I agree with Iksar. Seems OP, or at least hard to balance. At least in Pantheon, the Warrior/DireLord/Paladin won't have the same kind of DPS output as a pure DPS class will - even if wielding a 2hd'er.

    • 4 posts
    January 30, 2020 10:16 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    I get the aesthetic desire to be a DPS badass in full plate with a 2hander or two weapons...but from a game/balance perspective I don't understand. Top of the line armor mitigation and equal footing in damage with other DPS classes? I just don't see it. A berserker class in leathers that focuses on 2h fighting perhaps, but plate? Eh.

     

    As I said more than once, not asking to be top DPS, just not useless. For exacple, maybe land big hits but have a slower asttack rate, thus pure dps classes would end up having higher DPS. Also, being viable tanking with a 2h for some fights. 


    This post was edited by Cruor at January 30, 2020 10:26 PM PST
    • 546 posts
    January 31, 2020 4:32 AM PST

    Warrior isn't useless when it comes to DMG output - he brings small to medium consistent dmg by swinging his weapon and can increase total physical dmg output of the party with banners. When it comes to 2-H defensive value I think they could and should use the universal solution of higher Parry (vs shield block for 1h and shield) for 2H and dual wielders and its superiority vs SOME enemies  over Shield Block. But they shouldn't under any circumstance be considered more than lower end of medium DPS even with high tier gear.

    • 473 posts
    January 31, 2020 9:23 PM PST

    Cruor said:

    As I said more than once, not asking to be top DPS, just not useless. For exacple, maybe land big hits but have a slower asttack rate, thus pure dps classes would end up having higher DPS. Also, being viable tanking with a 2h for some fights. 

    DPS is factored on more than just swing times. Also, the Dire Lord doesn't have a choice to equip a shield - so 2hd/DW tanking will always have a place in the game.

    • 91 posts
    January 31, 2020 11:58 PM PST

    Warriors DPS rank should be just above healers...and possibly above the CC'ers if they focused heavily on doing CC stuff. I'm so tired of seeing tanks higher up on the parse or topping it. 

    What I would really love to see, and I think Pantheon is in the right direction, is warriors to increase the dps of the DPS'ers drastically. So, maybe as a warrior I only do 50% of the dps that the true DPS classes do. But I increase the dps of the entire group enough to make it feel like there is another dps involved. I think the banner system will help aid in that area. 

    Obviously, if Im having to really focus on tanking and not dying/keeping aggro...then that should be noticed as well too from a dps perspective. 

    • 804 posts
    February 5, 2020 1:39 PM PST

    If the game is anything like I think it will be, dual wielding will likely be better sustained DPS with 2h being better burst (which is why people prefer it for PvP).  This would also create a pseudo "balance of power" for the tank classes since the Paladin cannot dual wield and the Dire Lord cannot wear heavy armor;  Meaning that the Dire Lord will likely have higher (sustained) DPS than the Paladin but lower defenses than the Warrior, while the warrior will have high defense and offense at the cost of worse utility (in particular no healing).  This is also assuming level appropriate gear, skill, and raw class abilities are even close to balanced.  

    • 473 posts
    February 5, 2020 6:27 PM PST

    My paladin will bring the MACE to the FACE!

    • 1726 posts
    February 5, 2020 9:20 PM PST

    Darch said:

    If the game is anything like I think it will be, dual wielding will likely be better sustained DPS with 2h being better burst (which is why people prefer it for PvP).  This would also create a pseudo "balance of power" for the tank classes since the Paladin cannot dual wield and the Dire Lord cannot wear heavy armor;  Meaning that the Dire Lord will likely have higher (sustained) DPS than the Paladin but lower defenses than the Warrior, while the warrior will have high defense and offense at the cost of worse utility (in particular no healing).  This is also assuming level appropriate gear, skill, and raw class abilities are even close to balanced.  

     

    For now most abilities (except backstab) do not seem to scale off weapon damage, which means any disparity in dual wield versus two handed would only mostly show on the auto attack part of damage. Also means a shield will not hinder the potency of abilities and only auto attack as well. That might tune things differently from what we have been used.

    • 473 posts
    February 9, 2020 12:40 PM PST
    MauvaisOeil said:
    For now most abilities (except backstab) do not seem to scale off weapon damage

    In one of the patch notes, on this last stream, Joppa explained that this was fixed - it was also tied to the white dmg combat bug (minimum weapon damage wasn't being factored).
    • 1726 posts
    February 9, 2020 2:57 PM PST

    Fragile said:
    MauvaisOeil said: For now most abilities (except backstab) do not seem to scale off weapon damage
    In one of the patch notes, on this last stream, Joppa explained that this was fixed - it was also tied to the white dmg combat bug (minimum weapon damage wasn't being factored).

     

    I thought it was intentional to avoid extreme scaling from weapon, now it seems a bit going backwards but that should do the trick and seems more logical overall.

    • 389 posts
    February 9, 2020 3:03 PM PST

    Fragile said:
    MauvaisOeil said: For now most abilities (except backstab) do not seem to scale off weapon damage
    In one of the patch notes, on this last stream, Joppa explained that this was fixed - it was also tied to the white dmg combat bug (minimum weapon damage wasn't being factored).

     

    Hmmm I hadnt connected these two things prior to your pointing them out. Thanks! This is exciting.

    • 22 posts
    March 23, 2020 10:03 PM PDT

    Hey great post,

    I think that is an exceptional question and answer although I think I have a greater solution. I have just thought of something that I don't believe is mentioned above that could be an easy fix and helps the Warrior class overall. So in regards to the warriors abillities that require a shield to use I thought of a way where it can work very fluid. Abilities in Pantheon will be upgradeable, and to go further, those upgrades change the restrictions and boundires to enhance the ability as a whole. Let us use "Shield Block"ability as an example; So I am a warrior who wants to focus on using a 2H Sword or Axe and I don't want to have to use a shield. My Shield Block ability only functions when having a shield equipted however, if I sacrifice this ability and do not choose to use it than my Resiliance gain will severly hindered. (Resilience is the initial layer of mitigation and counts for 20% of your armor class.) To prevent this I believe VR needs to make "Shield Block" upgradable with the upgrade that allows the ability to be used with any weapon so that the warrior can operate outside the "sword-and-board" type tank. Shield block is the fundamental ability in the Warriors arsenal that needs to be on your action bar at all times because it is the main generater of Resiliance and blocks 60% of incoming physical damage. Without Resliance or an optimal way to generate it, you are going to have a hard time staying alive.

    In the end, if this upgrade is implemented then, I would not be sacrificing my main Resiliance gain and I would only be sacrificing the shield's ability to block. I feel it opens up the warriors weapon capilities and doesn't constrain the player's ability to be an effective tank with a 2H weapon. If they stick to their guns and keep it how it is then, there isn't enough weight to choose a 2H weapon over a shield when main tanking. I do plan on playing a warrior so I hope VR would implement this idea as soon as possible to get in-game results. Thank you for your time, I hope this helps. 

    -Burdik