Forums » Off-Topic and Casual Chatter

Amazon gives up on free-for-all pvp

    • 303 posts
    January 19, 2020 1:13 PM PST

    double post, sorry


    This post was edited by Spluffen at January 19, 2020 1:14 PM PST
    • 945 posts
    January 19, 2020 1:38 PM PST

    Nephretiti said:

    There is an inherent problem with PvP in a MMORPG.  It is the longevity.  The type of players who enjoy this type of play generally do not stick around too long.  They always feel the need to go for that new jolt of excitement that comes from playing the latest PvP game.  PvP servers usually start out very nicely.  I have enjoyed them.  But it isn't a play-style that I would stick with for more than a few months at best.  Check the PvP servers on almost any MMORPG - it's the same story.  The number of servers gets smaller and smaller until there is only one left.  And eventually, even that one goes away.  Then a year or two later a new one pops up and it goes NUTS!  For a few months.  Then it starts to shrink away.  What is the hottest PvP game out right now?  Anyone know?  Check back in 6 months.  It won't be top-dog anymore. Many years ago the DevTeam for EQ came up with a novel though:  I think it was called the Best of the Best Tournament.  This brought out some GREAT PvPers.  it was a limited time event.  I can't tell you how many boughts I went to - just to watch.  And I think that might be the way to go.  Let's remove the longevity on the PvP servers.  Make a PvP server a limited time event.  At the end of service (EoS), the server gets wiped and gets set up for the next PvP server with a different rule-set.  So, say Session 1 is full on PvP - no rules with a period of 3 months.  Winners get account rewards (fluff gear, fluff mounts, 3 mos. of play time, etc and/or what have you).  At the EoS, Winners list announced, players awarded, server(s) wiped, and new ruleset announced.  Start of Service (SoS) shows the new rules are PvP, factions, limited deaths (100).  Then repeat with the EoS, set-up for new service, etc.  There are so many different combos you could use for a ruleset.  Maybe we could create a vote system for rulesets or even let the winner of the last Server pick the ruleset for the next ruleset.  But the point is that by removing the longevity issue, we might be able to keep folks interested in PvP.  If you didn't like this ruleset - wait 3 months and see if the next ruleset works.  Also, remember the term of 3 months is just an example - make it 6 mos., make it a year, maybe have a single permanent PvP server.  There are a LOT of options out there.

    These are pretty good ideas.  I use to game with some of the BotB winners on Tallon Zek.  That was back when PvP was "honorable" -  i.e. You didn't jump someone when they're fighting a difficult NPC or having a fair 1v1 battle against someone else, or if you whoop someone's ass, you let them loot their corpse and maybe even give them a salute if it was a good fight.  So although this is a good idea, I prefer to keep the people that are diehard pvp on a different server until I'm ready to come whoop dat ass because my current plan is to play on PvE until the PvP servers start allowing server transfers (which they always due to Neph's comment above about pvp server populations) and I'll be in full raid gear while the PvP players are mostly still struggling to just get a raid organized.  This happened to us on TZ when we were progressing through Planes of Power and swarms of people from PvE servers in full PoTime gear transferred over... they had 0 pvp skill, but needed 0 skills because they were pretty much untouchable unless you had raid gear/buffs.  The jump from velious thurgadin/skyshrine gear to PoTime was insane.  And we already know PRotF will have progression/unlocking systems similar EQ's PoP where you have to adventure in a specific area (and likely defeat specific encounters) before you can survive in another area... those were so much fun on a pvp server - but ultimately it lost us the server to bluebies that had progressed beyond that point with 0 resistance.

    • 1992 posts
    January 19, 2020 2:41 PM PST

    Darch said:

    I think some confuse PvPer with "Griefer".  Griefers come in all flavors of player, so with that siad you can still expect to see griefers in Pantheon.

    Quote for truth..

    • Moderator
    • 9115 posts
    January 19, 2020 6:00 PM PST

    Moved to Off-Topic as this is not directly releated to Pantheon.

    • 1247 posts
    January 19, 2020 7:06 PM PST

    Ezrael said:

    From what I've read about the history of EQ's development.

    ... that’s where I stopped reading. Lost me there buddy, but continue to read what you want to read. 

    • 1428 posts
    January 20, 2020 8:36 AM PST

    Kittik said:

    PvPers and the attempts to "balance" a game so they're aren't constantly bitching to everything and anything that will listen is what ruins games.

    Who cares if you miss out on 5k players (yes, they are outlandishly vocal) who say they won't try your game because it's not PvP.  Those 5k players will eventually ruin the game and are a huge turn off for 50k playes who otherwise probably would have loved your game.

    yikes.  that's a gross over generalization of pvpers.  just like pvers have a small vocal group that ruins games, i know that doesn't account for most pvers.  everyone wants a fair and balanced gaming experience.  what's wrong with that?  it's not like pantheon didn't code the game to separate pvp and pve balance.  it's not like we'll be on separate servers.  we can be happy, you can be happy so let us exist in pantheon on our own server and go about your merry way.  

    • 844 posts
    January 20, 2020 9:27 AM PST

    Ranarius said:

    zewtastic said:

    I was in the early alpha, did not like New World one bit. Uninstalled after a day.



    I like the IDEA of the game (not nearly as much as Pantheon though haha).  For the cost I'll definitey give it a try and see if it keeps my attention for a bit.  You willing to say what you didn't like about it?  I've seen a bunch of videos on it, was it something I haven't already seen in a video that you didn't like?

    Social interaction was effectively hard-baked in. Meaning you could not ignore it and function immesively as a solo player.

    It was very disturbing due to the high level of toxicity in the chat. Akin to Arche Age and BDO. Seriously vile people was playing and not being culled.

    The Alpha was a while ago. It may have changed and that aspect been lessened, but I have a bad taste from it. A negative carry over from other new age MMO's I suppose.

    • 10 posts
    January 21, 2020 4:02 AM PST

    I Played the New World Alpha during the second phase.  There were a lot of decent people there who just liked to PVP.  The Company I was in at the end was a truly Neutral one.  We held a PvP tournament and get together after they announced the server closing date.  Even Companies that didn't like each other attended and everything was civil, etc.  And yes, the devs were there too. 

    It's interesting to note that some companies had devs from OTHER games who were there to check things out. Combat was pleasantly simplistic without the complication of huge rotations that you had to rehearse to develop muscle memory.  The game was beautiful and the story - although sparse - was interesting. 

    Sadly a few people decided to make the name of the game: "Let's ruin someone's day!"

    Groups camped low level areas and would not let people out of the Outposts.  A new player could expect to be killed 6-8 times in the first few hours and each time have his gear significantly damaged (can only be repaired so much - IF you can find someone who can do it, so you end up making new - so count it as a complete loss if you get killed twice) and whatever he had spent the last hour gathering.  Amazon had instituted a Criminal System, which had a cooldown and penalized the killer 
    with gear in addition to item loss.  It didn't work.  A criminal could level very high in weapons skills and not take any gathering or crafting - because they stole and sold everything.  They would hide and jump you wearing no armor with only a club.  Clubs in the game  had a very fast attack speed and could take out even a decent player very quickly. So, if you didn't see them you had a good chance of dying.  Most also carried spears, so if you managed to run away they would simply range you and kill you.

    If that wasn't enough, a group of thugs would get together and attack a higher level player, and a low level "throw away" character would deliver the final blow so he would be the only one penalized with the criminal tag.  There was an awful lot of very crude smack talk - which goes with that sort of behavior.  There were even a couple of large, powerful companies who built their policies and behavior around ganking gatherers and crafters - and boasted about it.

    It is important to watch the Amazon Dev video addressing the PVP issues they released.  In it they specifically state that it was NOT the majority of PvPers that engaged in this sort of behavior.  Sadly there is no way to police it, and it ruined the game for the majority of players.   In Amazon's analysis there simply wasn't a way to fix it that someone wouldn't take advantage of.   

    I will be playing another round of New World Alpha before the Closed Beta (that is what we've been told anyway...).  It will keep me busy until Pantheon launches! 

     


    This post was edited by oldgamerbroad at January 21, 2020 4:20 AM PST
    • 1273 posts
    January 21, 2020 8:48 AM PST

    Very interesting posts Oldgamerbroad and Zewtastic, thanks for taking the time.

    It'll be interesting to see how the game evolves between now and release.  I pre-ordered so I can get into the open beta, but I doubt I'll get into anything before that (I don't even know how people signed up for Alpha haha).  

     

    As far as the community behavior goes, I'm used to it, but it is sad.  The language and behavior people use online is always worse than it is in real life (although it often spills over into real life behavior too which is even more disturbing).  

    • 1785 posts
    January 21, 2020 9:22 AM PST

    oldgamerbroad said:

    Groups camped low level areas and would not let people out of the Outposts.  A new player could expect to be killed 6-8 times in the first few hours and each time have his gear significantly damaged (can only be repaired so much - IF you can find someone who can do it, so you end up making new - so count it as a complete loss if you get killed twice) and whatever he had spent the last hour gathering.  Amazon had instituted a Criminal System, which had a cooldown and penalized the killer with gear in addition to item loss.  It didn't work.  A criminal could level very high in weapons skills and not take any gathering or crafting - because they stole and sold everything.  They would hide and jump you wearing no armor with only a club.  Clubs in the game  had a very fast attack speed and could take out even a decent player very quickly. So, if you didn't see them you had a good chance of dying.  Most also carried spears, so if you managed to run away they would simply range you and kill you.

    If that wasn't enough, a group of thugs would get together and attack a higher level player, and a low level "throw away" character would deliver the final blow so he would be the only one penalized with the criminal tag.  There was an awful lot of very crude smack talk - which goes with that sort of behavior.  There were even a couple of large, powerful companies who built their policies and behavior around ganking gatherers and crafters - and boasted about it.

     

    I was reading this and thinking of all the times I saw the same sort of things happening in high-security space in EVE Online.  Alt characters created just for purpose of getting around the penalties, and coordination between players to game the system as much as possible.  It may only be a minority of PvPers who decide to play this way but all it takes is a few of them.

    I'm very interested to see how New World moves forward from here.  I may even pre-order it just to give it a try, though I'm still undecided.  But they seem to at least be aware of the problem before they launch, which is better than I can say for many other games that have struggled with this kind of issue.

    In the end, I hope that there can still be a rich and fulfilling PvP experience that doesn't block PvEers from being able to play and enjoy the game.  I'm the sort of person who does PvE 90% of the time, but if you invite me to something like a guild vs. guild siege battle to determine who owns the fort in town for the next few weeks, sure, that sounds like a ton of fun!  A lot more fun than an e-sports style battleground, and FAR more fun than always having to worry about getting jumped randomly in the open world.  I'm not saying those other types of PvP are bad, but they're just not types that I find fun.

    Anyway, really appreciate the insight from someone who was there.  Hopefully New World ends up being a fun game for a lot of us while we wait for Pantheon's release.

    • 3852 posts
    January 21, 2020 3:26 PM PST

    Amen. I went back to LOTRO for years then back to EQ2 recently - I wouldn't at all mind something that didn't involve going back to an old game. And we doubltlessly have 1-2 years to kill at a minimum.

    • 10 posts
    January 22, 2020 1:25 AM PST

    I am in a mature, static company there and we've stayed in touch.  We've also formed some strong alliances before launch as our neutral status and organization skills put us in good stead with a lot of other big companies.  There will likely be openings as a few of our PvP heavy people are dropping out.  If anyone here does end up playing New World, please feel free to message me.


    This post was edited by oldgamerbroad at January 22, 2020 1:25 AM PST
    • 3852 posts
    January 22, 2020 7:19 AM PST

     

    As for me - while the toning down of free-for-all is a big step in the right direction I still will be waiting to see just what ruleset replaces it. 

    My minimum requirements to enjoy a MMO usually are that there is at least a reasonable amount of things to do in terms of crafting and other pve - and that pvp is optional. In other words that if I stay out of any zones labeled as pvp only and do nothing to flag myself for pvp some bored high level cannot swoop over and kill me with no reason at all other than the fun of ganking a helpless lower level. I have no idea where New World will wind up on these points. I also don't know whether it will have any advantages over older games such as higher end graphics - I certainly do not expect an "old school" feel from it. 

    • 10 posts
    January 26, 2020 12:59 AM PST

    Smedley is there, and that seems to herald more PVE.  Will update when I hit alpha again.  The insider in our company is saying March for the final alpha.  It seems they have a large crew in place to make changes.  It's actually quite impressive for an "open world" MMO. 

    If they expand from where they were with crafting, etc. it will be VERY rich in that area.  The best gear is CRAFTED from parts gathered in high risk area.  All gear deteriorates and eventually MUST be replaced!  In our company we had to carefully choose specializations.  Repairers were as valued as crafters as they could significantly extend the lifetime of gear.

     


    This post was edited by oldgamerbroad at January 26, 2020 1:03 AM PST
    • 1281 posts
    January 26, 2020 9:46 PM PST

    I can understand how some people want something for nothing, but it's not realistic. No game is free. If you are playing a F2P game, what you are not paying, someone else has to. Running just a single server in the cloud can cost thousands of dollars a month. Multiply that but hundreds of servers needed to run these games and it adds up quick. That money has to come from somewhere. And that is a cost you have to pay even if you never write another single line of code.

    I think by going for a subscription focus you can focus on the longevity and to create a real environment that encourages players to keep coming back. With F2P they have to put the focus into hooking players immediately and to get them to keep spending money. A simple monthly payment that you auto pay and never think about removes all of the BS from the game that keeps standing out to "buy now".


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at January 26, 2020 9:48 PM PST
    • 844 posts
    January 29, 2020 3:40 PM PST

    bigdogchris said:

    I can understand how some people want something for nothing, but it's not realistic. No game is free. If you are playing a F2P game, what you are not paying, someone else has to. Running just a single server in the cloud can cost thousands of dollars a month. Multiply that but hundreds of servers needed to run these games and it adds up quick. That money has to come from somewhere. And that is a cost you have to pay even if you never write another single line of code.

    I think by going for a subscription focus you can focus on the longevity and to create a real environment that encourages players to keep coming back. With F2P they have to put the focus into hooking players immediately and to get them to keep spending money. A simple monthly payment that you auto pay and never think about removes all of the BS from the game that keeps standing out to "buy now".

    As someone who worked in the game industry, managing 'all' the infrastructure - I can tell you the costs are ridiculously cheap. Far cheaper than the cost of paying employees to create content.

    Leveraging cloud infrastucture turn's solo game developers into a complete game studio. No more having to manage and support a costly data center, network admins. Cloud is amazing - I could add/remove whatever tech I needed almost instantly. Servers, RAM Storage, Databases, server farms. And it costs pennies to run, less than pennies depending on what you're doing.

    FTP games make their money from a small % of players that essentially become addicted or just don't care about spending to make themselves feel like winners.

    A single player could be spending thousands where the next few hundred players never spent a penny.

    That's the tradeoff for FTP. The games suck cause people just spend their way to the top. There's no skill involved.

    It's an ugly gaming addiction. OCD completionist players that think simply grinding some quest 500 times should make them 'leet'. Yet they can't seem to play their class correctly without a party wipe.