Over at Pantheon Crafters, Barin has started a discussion about how to introduce challenging content for crafting. There's a lot to his discussion and I can't do it all justice here. However, one question that came up recently was how you actually make crafting content challenging. I wanted to share the answer I wrote to that question this morning over here, because 1) I think it's an important topic in general, and 2) I'd love to see more people come participate in Barin's thread, even if you happen to disagree with me :)
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Neph said: If you want to think of suitable challenges for crafters OR for adventurers, first be a storyteller, and think of meaningful stories that will interest them
As usual, well done. Your scenarios stir the imagination, and make me want to craft (something I usually only do out of necessity). If the barrels of hardtack, salted pork, and dark rhum are not merely click-fests for the next level, but rather the "various supplies...to support the crew" of Scenario 2 above I wholeheartedly want in on the epic fun. Added bonus: community built projects build community *grins*.
Bravo!
P.S. I suggest the galleon be christened with an appropriate kenning like Foam Farer, Sea Scout, or something similar in Elvish or Halfling. Then have a launch party and it opens up ocean travel between continents (or a new, perhaps faster or more direct way than was available at server start).
P.P.S. Off topic - do the oceans have names yet? (dashes off to check the lore...)
The challenge from crafting is not the built-in possibility of failing a combine and losing your materials. Challenging crafting is when you have to leave the safety of a town and go out into the wilds to actually craft something or to obtain the NoDrop 'recipe' that would allow you to make it back in town. That forge you hear about from legends and myths, far down in the bowels of the earth that noone alive really knows exactly where, surrounded by beasts and creatures of immense power, adds more danger and challenge than buying the materials off an NPC, walking 5 feet to a forge and hitting combine.
Having to need a group (or more) to keep the area clear (or to better yet actively keep the creatures busy while the forge is used as it is their lifeforce that feeds the forge so killing them makes the forge go cold) and having the possibilty for a combine failure is where challenge actually comes into play.
Sadly, though, it really is only blacksmithing that I can think of where this type of scenario actually works. I just can't see such a scenario for, cooking, for example. The legendary bread oven? Just doesn't have the same sense of foreboding.
For cooking, you can make it about the ingredients.
"The prince needs a legendary meal for his banquet? Well uh... sure, I can do that. Let's see, I have most of the stuff, but I'm out of a few things. What things? Well, for starters, I need Crimsonleaf Herbs - the ones that only grow in the Swamp of Peril. Yup, those ones. Then, I'm going to need some Frost Wheat. I know the dwarves used to grow the stuff but I think you can only find it wild these days in the Tenebrous Tundra. Oh and finally, I need 3 dragon haunches. Mature dragons, not the younglings. The banquest is next Tuesday? I guess we better get busy then."
Edit: The problem you point out is why I would like Pantheon to have crafting equipment, similar to Vanguard. Because then you can have an equipment progression that constitutes part of the challenge as well.
Nephele said:For cooking, you can make it about the ingredients.
The same would be true for all crafting though. You won't find piles of Mithril just laying around in the local shops. We already know we'll need to go out into the world to obtain higher end materials for crafting, but that is just not enough for a true challenging crafting system. Actually having to use some crafting station out in there, defended by your friends/guildmates as you make as many combines as you possibly can is more of a challenge. It blends the adventuring and crafting spheres.
Blacksmithing (Armorcraft and Weaponcraft) - Find and use the forges in some infernal cavern where you have to drive off the fire giants before you can use the forge. You'll need people to defend you as well as another 2 people to operate the bellows.
Alchemy (Poisoncraft and Poisoncraft) - Breach an old fortress far out in the dark jungle where you need to find a mythic alchemical construct. The alchemist, long dead, bound thralls to his will through mind altering alchemy. You need to continually drive off these thralls as you do your work.
How do you deal with the (assumed) limited number of "out there" stations? Not a problem in early game, but as more and more folk reach end game do they have to reserve time at the Amberfaet Forge? Wait in line? Treat it as another open world contested spawn and "fight" over access? Have a dozen different guild groups all crowded around using it simultaneously (allowing some soloists to sneak in without support as others are already providing it)?
Don't get me wrong, I have loved the idea ever since VR first streamed Amberfaet, just wondering how the mechanics will play out.
I think for external crafting stations you can only really use them in moderation - for certain very specific/special things. Otherwise, you start to create silly/unimmersive situations where you have 20 smiths all crowded around the Amberfaet forge, or you have some kind of legendary crafting area in every single zone, and they don't feel all that legendary or special anymore.
We don't know exactly how the crafting system will work when creating items yet but assuming that it's something like Vanguard, where there are complications that can occur and must be responded to during the crafting process, then it should theoretically be possible for more difficult recipes to have more (or greater) complications.
That provides several options for delivering challenge.
1) Ingredients needed for the recipe. More challenging recipes may require ingredients that are harder to come by.
2) Location restrictions on where the item can be created. Some things may only be forged in Amberfaet, for example.
3) Specific tools required to create item. Some things may only be created when using a specific (equippable) crafting tool - for example a Legendary cooking set.
4) Time or weather restrictions on when the item can be created. Some things may only be created at night under a full moon, or during a storm, or perhaps both.
5) Minimum crafting stats required to create item. Stats may be influenced by equipment, tools, skills/progression, and location.
6) More or more potent complications during crafting of the item. Presumably, the effects of these may be countered/mitigated by a combination of skills/techniques, crafting-related stats, and/or the use of specific crafting tools or specific locations.
7) Obtaining the recipe for the item itself. No one said that was going to be easy.
I think something that will be important will be treating each area of crafting somewhat independently so that everything makes sense contextually. Just because smiths have a legendary forge in Amberfaet, that doesn't necessarily need that bakers need a legendary oven somewhere in the world. Yes, both areas of crafting should have challenges associated with them but there should not be a requirement that they follow the same formulas or templates in providing that challenge. Otherwise, it leads us into situations where those challenges start to feel contrived, instead of being thematically appropriate.
Because of this I also think it's ok if each type of crafting uses similar underlying concepts but works a little differently in terms of how items are created. Please note that I'm defining type by the tools and process used rather than the item created. So, smelting metal should be relatively consistent regardless of what that metal will be used for in the end. But that could be a completely different process from tanning a hide or weaving a piece of cloth, or cooking a piece of meat. I think having those processes be different will also help encourage specialists in different crafting areas as well, regardless of whether the progression system locks us into a single area or not.
Thanks Barin - you and Nephele always give me something to cogitate. Again, I have not been a big crafter in past games (only combined things out of necessity - though I enjoyed Vanguard's group harvesting and harvesting outfits).
I have enjoyed contributing (however small an amount) to large, world-effecting construction projects. In fact, an enormous goal that will benefit (or just amaze) the entire server always draws me in to craft more, and enjoy it from a roleplay view. I like crafting that involves others - while I detest just loading up on mats and standing solo around the {insert name of craft vessel here} while clicking over and over and over and....
If, however, town criers spread the news that an ancient ruin deep in the Fire Swamp had been discovered that needed at least 200 craftsfolk all working together to restore its magical functions - I would pack up my tools and brave the fire spurts, lightning sand, and RoUSes, having a blast all the way.