The drawback of allowing changing the appearance (I assume you only talk about gear) you will see warriors fighting in cloth.
Well some might be in favour when they see a female warrior fighting in cloth
In theory, I like both, In practice, I like to see what people have earned. I don't spend time or money on my character's appearance. I did more when I was younger. Maybe it's just more a style thing. I'm not impressed with the clothing in most games. The armour in current AAA MMOs looks trashy. Too much emphasis on the character model and not enough in the high fantasy theme appearance.
No to outlandish, over-the-top, non-adventuring gear.
No to outlandish, over-the-top adventuring gear, too, really.
Yes to 'storing' the appearance of previously used adventuring gear (even if it consumes it) and overriding current gear you don't like the look of (even if it's a one-time permanent thing).
No to any cosmetic look being different by class or type to what is actually being worn.
Indifferent to lore-appropriate, simple 'civilian' clothes when not adventuring.
No to tuxedos, ballgowns, pyjamas, bikinis, holiday-themed outfits and the like even in non-adventuring settings.
Re a 'toggle' system which supposedly means everyone gets what they want? It doesn't. If cosmetics *are* allowed a toggle makes them pointless/worthless/confusing. If I cared about how I look (which I do) I would have to maintain both cosmetic and 'real' looks and never know which anyone is seeing. Also, to never know what others are actually seeing when they look at you or others is immersion-breaking and confusing.
"Go help that warrior in rusty plate there!"
"I don't see anyone in rusty plate"
"Next to the wizard in the green tunic"
"There's two wizards, both are wearing robes"
"Nevermind, he's dead... Is that helmet of yours difficult to see out of or something?"
"I'm not wearing a helmet"
"Gah!"
With my 'wardrobe' system, everyone gets what they want. If some players find prestige and bragging important, they can show exactly what they are wearing. Others can show what they want to (but nothing they haven't earned and worn). The usual /inspect function allows people that really feel the need to know what others are wearing to do that. A toggle removes the option for players to decide how they look to anyone but themselves which is crazy.
P.S. This whole thing is going to be very controversial and I'd rather have nothing than potentially immersion-breaking cosmetics or cosmetics that are pointless/confusing because of a toggle. As long as Pantheon armor is lore-sensitive and in-keeping with a gritty but fantasy feel, then it won't be an issue like it was in classic EQ for example, where you would regularly end up looking like a jester in rainbow motley.
P.P.S. Having a simple, subtle wardrobe system allows for a whole meta game of 'collecting' outfits that a lot of people used to do in games like LOTRO. You would explore all zones of all levels to make sure you hadn't missed a style of outfit you might like. As I said, everything was still totally appropriate for you class and actually worn gear, but it added a whole level of interest that you would otherwise not have. Without such a system, players might even end up avoiding/skipping doing some content because you know the armor drops have a look you don't like.
Well, this has been debated many times in the past, and no real consensus was attained iirc. My personal preference is no transmog. I understand that many are just as staunchly in support of allowing appearance changes, and thats just fine. The last time this was discussed Brad had proposed a toggle to allow the player to choose the view they prefer, either the actual gear or the altered gear. If it has to be in game just give me that toggle so I don't have to see Ken and Barbie play dress up.
Personally I don´t like the idea of "style gear" at all. In my opinion a level 1 Character should look like he´s level 1 and just starting his journey in the world of Terminus. Seeing low level Chars running around glowing like unicorns as you can find it in retail WoW e.g. is an absolute turnoff for me.
The looks of your Characters Armor should progress as his level does or with bigger accomplishments like defeating raid bosses or handing in epic quests etc.
In EQ epic weapons were actually epic, because they had an unique look, were kind of a real journey to get and you needed a lot of time (and nerves) to get them. But boy did it feel good to hold one of those badass items :D.
Implementing NPCs like a barber that changes your hair style for a couple of gold can´t hurt though imho.
Grymmlocke said:Well, this has been debated many times in the past, and no real consensus was attained iirc. My personal preference is no transmog. I understand that many are just as staunchly in support of allowing appearance changes, and thats just fine. The last time this was discussed Brad had proposed a toggle to allow the player to choose the view they prefer, either the actual gear or the altered gear. If it has to be in game just give me that toggle so I don't have to see Ken and Barbie play dress up.
Exactly, one of the main reasons why I can´t enjoy eastern MMOs is their completely over the top style of armor and weapons. Plus of course the "action-styled" combat system and anime-style looking characters..
If I had to choose I’d say allow everyone to see their earned amour and weapons, but if the armor/weapon has a distinctive enough design the colors options wont matter, That said I’m opposed to transforming gear to look like something else 100%
I am of the mind that your gear and items should appear as they are, as a representation of something your character has accomplished. Sometimes there will be a need to choose between a piece of gear you think looks great or a piece of gear with the better utility. Simply having to make this choice is important, in my opinion, as it is part of character identity.
Having said that, I can see the other side of the argument with some good points raised above. So, if some sort of transmog system were implemented that utilized player interdependence, was part of a tradeskill, or occured organically in the world, I could live with that. As long as it is not part of a cash shop. Transmog systems have traditionally been tied to cash shops and we know those won’t be a part of Pantheon.
Well - I'm not against appearance gear, but I do prefer and always choose to see (if given the option) a "real" equipment. That being said I'm always going for the best stats on my gear and frequently I am a bit pissed becouse "the best" gear pieces for my class tends to be from many different sets - leaving me looking almost like a clown. I just wish that sets of armour would be matching in power and in the "focus" of their stats - so if I was aiming for gearing towards crit chance and dmg I'd be bummed if one piece from that armour would just boost my defences and do not adress my goal - unless we'd get great boost to stats from wearing complete set (which I do really like).
Part of the joy and anticipation was seeing what it looks like on you(r doll).
The bonus was seeing what it looks like on another race!. (example: Erudite "tea-pot" plate helmets, High-Elf "Cat-ears" plate helmets in old EQ). Same thing with Robes on Casters, same robe but would appear with different cut. Different robes would have a different design. Old or low level robes were sought just for the design to be worn for vanity purposes when not in battle or grouping.
Which brings up the point that fashionquest, is real. (lol)
But this is where I draw the line, I like having it immersive as above- how its presented to you in game from what you have done or what you have earned, like the uber apothic armor from fear that appeared all red on casters. Or the gnomeskin leather gear dropped in Tower of Frozen shadow that was the ONLY leather armor with all black appearance at the time.
You could tell from looking at the person and from a non-gameplay but social perspective it was nice bit of flattery/vanity to answer such questions as "where did you get that robe!?" or "what is that shield/weapon?!?"
Personally I prefer that kind of interaction with accidental cosmetic enhancements, meaning. Veni, Vidi, Vici and when I put on the robe I won in loot? it had a neat look!- cool unexpected bonus!
But, I am also sympathetic to dress-up. I have no problem with cosmetic changes or glam enhancements if people want them. If they can be toggled on or off like fireworks? then great. I mean, I like a good fireworks show :)
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Do you like being able to change your character's appearance in-game or would you rather all players be known for their accomplishments by allowing everyone to see their earned armour and weapons? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
IMO items should always be shown as they are - but that doesn't mean that there can't be "roleplay" outfits that I may switch to.
Items should always be shown as they are/achieved. Some RP is fine too.
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels
I don't really understand the point of appearance gear with no stats...It's like getting married in the game, do I get a tax break or something?!! haha!
The hard to earn high quality gear with stats should also be the appearance gear imo.
However, if appearance gear had a benefit, such as wearing it in a city for a X amount of time to gain a minor buff, then I could get behind that. Could aslo be hard to obtain for better buffs. May even help keep cities populated.
I always felt that the toggle should be used to determine whether or not you want your character to show off the appearance that you have worked for. I think it's kind of immersion breaking if you use the toggle the other way around ... "Everybody run to the big ogre wearing red plate!" -- "But I don't see an ogre wearing red plate." The main purpose of utilizing an appearance slot is to allow players to express the "look" that they have earned without sacrificing efficiency. (You can wear the red plate armor in your appearance slot even though the rainbow puke patchwork gear is more efficient for whatever you're fighting.) The current plan for toggle implementation seems like it would lead to players setting an expectation on whether or not others use it. (Raid Rule #7, you MUST have appearance gear toggled ON)
The way this question is worded seems to suggest an either/or proposition. The implementation of "appearance slots" allows players to change their appearance, but the only gear that can be used is that which is earned. If anything, appearance slots enhance the ability of players being able to show off their achievements. If there ends up being a quest that takes an obscene amount of time/effort to complete, but the reward itself is extremely situational, appearance slots would allow players to "show off their accomplishment" in a more meaningful way. This is especially true as a game ages and new/better gear comes out. At some point in time, the old stuff would be considered "legacy gear" -- the stats wouldn't be viable but players would recognize the appearance and associate it with the challenges that had to be overcome to earn it.
My view on this is nuanced.
Philosophically, I like for people's characters to "look the part". So, in an ideal world, I feel like an appearance option or toggle shouldn't be necessary. However:
I also take pride in my own character's appearance, and I'm sure many other people do as well. In many games that did not have an appearance option this has led to me consciously deciding NOT to use pieces of equipment with better stats simply because I didn't like the look of them. I am willing to do that, but many other players are not willing to make that sacrifice for the sake of their appearance.
Likewise, in many games I have had more than an eyeful of people's intentionally awful and immersion-breaking cosmetic choices - both in games that had an appearance option, and those that did not.
So, at this point, I feel like it's better to give people the option, even if that results in situations where players aren't wearing the armor that we would expect them to use in combat. Yes, some people will abuse it. Yes, it will be annoying. But let's be real - that would have happened anyway. And the vast majority of players will probably be wearing something that's at least believable, if not realistic.
I would be happy with no appearance options at all. Let's have some realism here. If I am wearing plate mail why in the name of all Gods should someone look at me and see me in a bikini? Or even cloth armor.
The only reason to allow us to be seen wearing things we actually are *not* wearing is to generate sales for an in-game store. No store - no need for this nonsense.
An option to have the player see the character in "pretend" gear isn't nearly as bad as one that inflicts this on other players though I don't see the need to waste resources on this.
If VR is going the "pretend gear" route at an irreducable minimum give us an option to disable it.
In games letting me check boxes to hide head armor and cloaks I always use these. Hey - I spent a lot of time getting my hair just right. But I would gladly sacrifice these options if the bottom line was that we always saw all characters as they actually were.
Nephele said:My view on this is nuanced.
Philosophically, I like for people's characters to "look the part". So, in an ideal world, I feel like an appearance option or toggle shouldn't be necessary. However:
I also take pride in my own character's appearance, and I'm sure many other people do as well. In many games that did not have an appearance option this has led to me consciously deciding NOT to use pieces of equipment with better stats simply because I didn't like the look of them. I am willing to do that, but many other players are not willing to make that sacrifice for the sake of their appearance.
Likewise, in many games I have had more than an eyeful of people's intentionally awful and immersion-breaking cosmetic choices - both in games that had an appearance option, and those that did not.
So, at this point, I feel like it's better to give people the option, even if that results in situations where players aren't wearing the armor that we would expect them to use in combat. Yes, some people will abuse it. Yes, it will be annoying. But let's be real - that would have happened anyway. And the vast majority of players will probably be wearing something that's at least believable, if not realistic.
I get it, some folks are very focused on their appearence, some just wanna be different or shock others with their looks eg some warrior running around in a tutu and fairy wings. Fine, go for it if thats your thing. Just allow me to opt out of such shenanigans with a simple toggle. Just my 2cp.
dorotea said:I would be happy with no appearance options at all. Let's have some realism here. If I am wearing plate mail why in the name of all Gods should someone look at me and see me in a bikini? Or even cloth armor.
The only reason to allow us to be seen wearing things we actually are *not* wearing is to generate sales for an in-game store. No store - no need for this nonsense.
An option to have the player see the character in "pretend" gear isn't nearly as bad as one that inflicts this on other players though I don't see the need to waste resources on this.
If VR is going the "pretend gear" route at an irreducable minimum give us an option to disable it.
In games letting me check boxes to hide head armor and cloaks I always use these. Hey - I spent a lot of time getting my hair just right. But I would gladly sacrifice these options if the bottom line was that we always saw all characters as they actually were.
I agree completely. Nice 2500 post dorotea.
dorotea said:The only reason to allow us to be seen wearing things we actually are *not* wearing is to generate sales for an in-game store. No store - no need for this nonsense.
Appearance slots are not automatically tied to an in-game store. Pantheon isn't going to have a cash shop so that should never be a concern. There are several reasons to allow "appearance slots" -- I mentioned one of the more important ones in my previous post. As the game ages, certain gear will become "dated" -- once the stats on gear becomes unviable, the value of that gear will reduce dramatically. The allowance of appearance slots changes that dynamic. Instead of the "magma-forged spaulders" becoming irrelevant, specifically because there are other shoulders with better stats, which are also easier to come by ... those magma-forged spaulders may still have value/demand if the appearance of those shoulders is unique. Appearance slots actually go a long way toward adding perceived value to gear. This improves the relevance of older content and boosts the earlier tiers of the economy. Perceived value is entirely player-driven and there are many positives for facilitating those emergent constructs with game design.
Being able to toggle it on each client UI options, persistently, between seeing appearance slots or not gives the most flexibility to each player, and that current (at least, the last time you talked about it, Kilsin) plan would seem to be the best path forward, for Pantheon, imo.
On a related topic, for me, in every MMO I've played, there are slots I would like to disable the visibility of, and slots I would like to alter the appearance of.
Foot armor for Hobbits, head armor for the sake of hair, hand/shoulder armor for some situations, and where performance demanded it, (70+ characters on the screen) every slot being invisible/empty.
Having non-combat appearance gear for social situations seems like an expected feature, as well. Even The Outer Worlds has that.
In EQ1, I collected armor that had unusual textures given it's role, such as cloth, leather, and chain, just to have the choices of that appearance, should the occasion/situation demand it.
As always, the persistent toggle solves any PvP related issues as well. While I personally don't care what other players look like as long as they're performing their role, in combat, I can understand why some members of the target demographic would prefer the persistent toggle, whereby they would always see what is equipped, and be able to ignore all appearance slots for their view of others.